€6,000,000,000.00 in Budget cuts tba today

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

fyp.

That's not funny because it's true.

Wertz

No-one's mentioned VAT yet in the thread....guarantee we'll see both full rate and reduced rate going up by 1%, especially since the UK are doing the same in the new year, and as a consumption tax it's a harder one to avoid.
I'm also betting on cuts in tax credits across the board rather than rate rises.
Motor tax will indeed go up and it'll be the pre-emissions tax bands that get hit hardest.
Further fuel duty added too.

Odysseus

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I never said you didn't get hit with reductions and I never said you were over paid but the fact remains THE COUNTRY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY YOU what part of that is so hard to understand? In the private sector if your employer can't afford to pay your wage there's 2 options. 1. You lose your job or 2. They cut wages until they can afford to pay everyone.

No but what you did say was you had been hit twice, why can't the public sector be hit, therefore, failing to acknowledge we have been hit. Yep those are the options. I work in health care, if it is deemed that my position is not needed then I suppose I will lose my job.

However, I may decide to give up on the public service myself if my wages does not equal the service I need, as I said I currently do some private work to make up for the various hits I have taken, I may decide to just take on more, but there is only so much I can do, and after that it would mean I would have to leave the HSE because of the time needed. I can still make more in the private sector than the public service.

As opposed to the image regularly posted here I work for the HSE so that I can work with people who could not pay for my service otherwise. I do not work for them because it is easier than private work and because I get perks. Work for me would be a lot easier in the private sector and pays better too.

If the HSE cannot afford me, I lose my job. I work to live and I'm not going to work for below what I believe to be a wage that does not pay me. When things where good there was vacant positions in my area, people I know told me I was mad to work for that money. As I said I was never a person to chase cash, I want my wage to reflect the service that I provide, but I don't need or want a massive wage, if that is what I wanted I would never have worked in the public service.

The country has significant money issues, its all well and good saying we can’t afford you. However, the country needs health care professionals and nobody works for free.

The way a public service worker is described here fits somewhere between AHs view of paedophiles and addicts. Some of us work for less than our friends in the private sector because we want to work in the public sector, it gives us access to people who need the service we provide, but cannot afford to pay for it. As I said at the beginning by failing to acknowledge that pay cut have happened in the public service, you imply that we have not had cuts. As far as most of AH is concerned I do about an hours work a day, and spend the rest of it playing games or filling out my travel etc forms, and wondering what else I can claim for.

That's all I have to say on it really, it's very easy to get a pain in the whole with the sh!te that gets posted here. People want services, you cannot get them without paying people, and no matter how much people like working in the public service, and there is a cut point after which those who have skills that mean they can get work, will work for. If I lose my job, I will work in the private sector; so that’s what it comes down to, either pay me a wage that reflects my training, experience and qualifications or don’t and lose my service. That's the two options I see.

Odysseus

Degsy wrote: »

But i do have to pay my own pension..approx 13% or my earnings go towards my pension and this is a compulsary contribution.

Mayeb its time the private sector were forced to pay for thier own pensions too..a pension levy like we experienced of around 6% should do the trick.

This is all very simple..people attempting to scapegoat the Public Sector and urge pay cuts there are doing it so they wont have to pay increased income tax themselves.
"If we can get the PS to pay it it'll keep us safee from higher rates"...you think so?

That is what it seems like to me, make them pay so I don't have to. However I have to say Degsy I don't have the patience to engage in these threads, some of the attitudes here towards the public service are terrible. People will want us not only to work for free, but also apologise too because we work for the public sector.

Morlar

Odysseus wrote: »

That is what it seems like to me, make them pay so I don't have to. However I have to say Degsy I don't have the patience to engage in these threads, some of the attitudes here towards the public service are terrible. People will want us not only to work for free, but also apologise too because we work for the public sector.

Bull**** - people do not expect you to work for free. Poor you in the public sector. That is the attitude we keep coming back to over and agian - oh poor me in the public sector. If I am honest I would say you sound like a taxi driver before de-regulation.

I think you can blame a variety of factors for the public attitude to the public sector. One factor would be 'paralell universe' public sector unions, another would be the wastage involved in the public sector. I had a conversation recently with a group of people, out of the 7 or so most had previously had direct involvement with private sector entities in a professional capacity and the sheer lunatic waste, mismanagement and cronyism involved was literally hair raising - completely off the charts. This may not seep down to every level but it is there and it is an untackled issue. There is a need for public sector reform in a massive way and that's the nettle the govt are afraid to grasp. They pander to the unions and dither their way from crisis to crisis.

If I worked in a sector that cost taxpayers 20,000,000.00 per year rather than contributed to the taxpayer purse then frankly I would expect scrutiny from the public at large too. I would welcome reform and efficiencies and I would be opposed to public sector unions. The reason for the general public returning to the subject of public sector so often is that it is so badly in need of reform and we are paying for it until that day comes. Wastage, mismanagement, cronyism, fiefdoms, incompetence, duplication, administrator top heavy all of those and more issues cost real money and so of course the people paying for it are going to have an interest in how that money is spent. This is no reason for you to develop a victim mentality.

cleremy jarkson

Morlar wrote: »

The govt have now confirmed it is €6,000,000,000.00 for 2010.


* * *


Fianna Fail are back to their old 1980's trick of forcing Irish people to emigrate to keep the unemployed numbers down.

I suppose though, if they are going to take 6 billion out of the economy before 2011, there will be very few new jobs created next year, by domestic employers anyway...maybe a few multinationals will set up but I wouldn't count on it!
By next years budget, it will probably be like taking skin off a skeleton, and nobody will have any money to spend..

Wile E. Coyote

Odysseus wrote: »

That is what it seems like to me, make them pay so I don't have to. However I have to say Degsy I don't have the patience to engage in these threads, some of the attitudes here towards the public service are terrible. People will want us not only to work for free, but also apologise too because we work for the public sector.

My wage has gone down by 25% and I wasn't on great money to begin with. My wife has taken a cut of 10%. There's also talk that I could be taking another 10% cut this side of Christmas just to keep my job. Have you taken a 25-35% cut in pay? Now I'm going to be shafted again in the budget and why? Because the majority (not all) of public sector workers think they're too important to have their pay cut.

I don't want to see anyone have to take pay cuts and I hate to see people lose their job but cuts are whats needed to bring the budget defecit down and the €20billion a year being spent on public sector pay is the obvious place to start.

I'm not doubting the hard work or the tough job most public sector workers have but where do you think €6billion can be found next year?

Odysseus

Morlar wrote: »

Bull**** - people do not expect you to work for free. Poor you in the public sector. That is the attitude we keep coming back to over and agian - oh poor me in the public sector. If I am honest I would say you sound like a taxi driver before de-regulation.

I think you can blame a variety of factors for the public attitude to the public sector. One factor would be 'paralell universe' public sector unions, another would be the wastage involved in the public sector. I had a conversation recently with a group of people, out of the 7 or so most had previously had direct involvement with private sector entities in a professional capacity and the sheer lunatic waste, mismanagement and cronyism involved was literally hair raising - completely off the charts. This may not seep down to every level but it is there and it is an untackled issue. There is a need for public sector reform in a massive way and that's the nettle the govt are afraid to grasp. They pander to the unions and dither their way from crisis to crisis.

If I worked in a sector that cost taxpayers 20,000,000.00 per year rather than contributed to the taxpayer purse then frankly I would expect scrutiny from the public at large too. I would welcome reform and efficiencies and I would be opposed to public sector unions. The reason for the general public returning to the subject of public sector so often is that it is so badly in need of reform and we are paying for it until that day comes. Wastage, mismanagement, cronyism, fiefdoms, incompetence, duplication, administrator top heavy all of those and more issues cost real money and so of course the people paying for it are going to have an interest in how that money is spent. This is no reason for you to develop a victim mentality.

Don't think there is any poor me there, I welcome reform. However, I also welcome a wage than values my service, I'm lucky I can get work in either sector, however, I work for the HSE not yourself, or any member of AH. What I'm saying is that I will not take any guilt trip for earning a decent wage, if the HSE can't afford it, discontinue the service.

What I'm saying here is I will not apologise for earning a good wage from the public sector, AH members can rant and rave all they want. Have a look through the various threads and see how many "first thing I would do is sack all the public service" posts. I'll take responsibility for any issues with my role, but not the HSE.

If the public sector keeps taking money off me, I will take my cash from the private sector. However, I would prefer to allow the state to pay for people who need my service and can't afford it.

It does appear to me that it comes back to Degsy's point, people don't want any of the pain, let the public service have it. The BS I see here is people viewing the public service and its members as the cause of everything.

Odysseus

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

My wage has gone down by 25% and I wasn't on great money to begin with. My wife has taken a cut of 10%. There's also talk that I could be taking another 10% cut this side of Christmas just to keep my job. Have you taken a 25-35% cut in pay? Now I'm going to be shafted again in the budget and why? Because the majority (not all) of public sector workers think they're too important to have their pay cut.

I don't want to see anyone have to take pay cuts and I hate to see people lose their job but cuts are whats needed to bring the budget defecit down and the €20billion a year being spent on public sector pay is the obvious place to start.

I'm not doubting the hard work or the tough job most public sector workers have but where do you think €6billion can be found next year?

Approx yes I have when everything is totted up. Don't forget their are people in the private sector that outside of levies have not taken cuts. You have but not everybody has. I'm not going to get into the euro and cent I'm down but all public services have had cuts.

I would support an increase in tax for all, and I pay it from both sides of the fence as I now do some private work, and may increase it if I'm hit again.

Tucking Fypo

Hmmm, it's a difficult one, but one I see a way out of.

Let's say all government workers start buying scratch cards on their lunch break (paid by the taxpayer of course) and fingers crossed a few get on Winning Streak (sorry Neil, no pun intended), we'd be sorted. It's a no-brainer.

Wile E. Coyote

Odysseus wrote: »

Approx yes I have when everything is totted up. Don't forget their are people in the private sector that outside of levies have not taken cuts. You have but not everybody has. I'm not going to get into the euro and cent I'm down but all public services have had cuts.

I would support an increase in tax for all, and I pay it from both sides of the fence as I now do some private work, and may increase it if I'm hit again.

Anyone in the private sector that hasn't taken a pay cut hasn't taken one because their employer can afford to pay them not because their employer has borrowed more money. How would it benefit the country to have everyone earning less? That would lead to an even smaller tax take. Now your just making yourself sound like you don't want to take another cut because others haven't.

It's good that you can easily find employment in both the public and private sector but not everyone can. I have a 200km round trip every day just to get to one job. Even if I had the time or the energy after that I couldn't find a second job to bump up my salary because there's none out there.

darragh16

Reduce dole for u23's, Increase College fee's, Sell Air Lingus, Break up/Part privatise CIE, shut down FÁS, Reduce Public sector paybill. Reduce number of TD's and Senators. Reduce expenses for TD's, reduce RTE wages, remove €10 flight tax... etc etc.

JFlah

Odysseus wrote: »

Don't think there is any poor me there, I welcome reform. However, I also welcome a wage than values my service, I'm lucky I can get work in either sector, however, I work for the HSE not yourself, or any member of AH. What I'm saying is that I will not take any guilt trip for earning a decent wage, if the HSE can't afford it, discontinue the service.

What I'm saying here is I will not apologise for earning a good wage from the public sector, AH members can rant and rave all they want. Have a look through the various threads and see how many "first thing I would do is sack all the public service" posts. I'll take responsibility for any issues with my role, but not the HSE.

If the public sector keeps taking money off me, I will take my cash from the private sector. However, I would prefer to allow the state to pay for people who need my service and can't afford it.

It does appear to me that it comes back to Degsy's point, people don't want any of the pain, let the public service have it. The BS I see here is people viewing the public service and its members as the cause of everything.

I really don,t think anyone is saying you don,t deserve a decent wage , what a lot of people have difficulty with is that the biggest expense the governement have along with SW is the Public Service , and the vast majority of non PS people i know are annoyed bordering on angry that you and your colleagues seem to think u should be treated as special and are being treated as special surely a small reduction in salary obviously taking less from lower paid public servants is not a ridiculous thing for people to look for or expect , why should ye be immune , why not people on welfare be immune or pensioners or whatever . You can be sure that after this budget peoples feelings and attitudes towards public servants is going to worsen and huge resentment is going to become the norm , and taking this well if you don,t like it i,ll bugger off to the pvt sector attitude ain,t helping , also if u do get a pvt sector position and the company begins to struggle to pay you you,ll be offered a pay cut or the door , what then back to the public service !! come on ye know ye,re position is wrong if not ye have a very insular view of our situation. BTW a lot of my family are public servants .. but cuts for 1 cuts for all

Odysseus

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Anyone in the private sector that hasn't taken a pay cut hasn't taken one because their employer can afford to pay them not because their employer has borrowed more money. How would it benefit the country to have everyone earning less? That would lead to an even smaller tax take. Now your just making yourself sound like you don't want to take another cut because others haven't.

It's good that you can easily find employment in both the public and private sector but not everyone can. I have a 200km round trip every day just to get to one job. Even if I had the time or the energy after that I couldn't find a second job to bump up my salary because there's none out there.

I have a 160km trip myself, and I acknowledge I am in a good position to be able to take on more work, I have seen some poor chaps with p!ss poor lifes after losing their job. On top of that I also doing a second Masters, to try improve my access to more work.

I'll pay my share of the pain, like everyone else, I rather not; but what the buzz word "we all have to share the pain". However, hitting the public again and not the private worker I do not agree with.

Odysseus

JFlah wrote: »

I really don,t think anyone is saying you don,t deserve a decent wage , what a lot of people have difficulty with is that the biggest expense the governement have along with SW is the Public Service , and the vast majority of non PS people i know are annoyed bordering on angry that you and your colleagues seem to think u should be treated as special and are being treated as special surely a small reduction in salary obviously taking less from lower paid public servants is not a ridiculous thing for people to look for or expect , why should ye be immune , why not people on welfare be immune or pensioners or whatever . You can be sure that after this budget peoples feelings and attitudes towards public servants is going to worsen and huge resentment is going to become the norm , and taking this well if you don,t like it i,ll bugger off to the pvt sector attitude ain,t helping , also if u do get a pvt sector position and the company begins to struggle to pay you you,ll be offered a pay cut or the door , what then back to the public service !! come on ye know ye,re position is wrong if not ye have a very insular view of our situation. BTW a lot of my family are public servants .. but cuts for 1 cuts for all

We have already had that reduction, and basically that is what I'm saying hit both sectors not just one. I'm fed up with that resentment you speak of, that it is now starting to effect my opinion on the issue. Have a look at my post about privilege days in the bank time thread. Last year I would have been more open to it.

Edit: my profession is doing alright in the recession especially if you have my experience and qualifications. I can see how the I do some private work then statement can come across, but that is the result of this resentment people have. I acknowledge I'm in a good position, but I will not apologise for it, and be grateful to the tax payers of AH for it.

I remember being on the dole with no qualifications in the late 80s, so I do realise the position I'm in. Then as a 19 yr old I left Ireland, I have turned that around, by putting myself through college. I know how some people are really finding each day difficult, but don't get resentful at me because of it.

JFlah

Odysseus wrote: »

We have already had that reduction, and basically that is what I'm saying hit both sectors not just one. I'm fed up with that resentment you speak of, that it is now starting to effect my opinion on the issue. Have a look at my post about privilege days in the bank time thread. Last year I would have been more open to it.

I will do i,m not trying to have a go at you , and you obviosly know this feeling thats prevelant

gurramok

Odysseus wrote: »

I'll pay my share of the pain, like everyone else, I rather not; but what the buzz word "we all have to share the pain". However, hitting the public again and not the private worker I do not agree with.

Why should the private sector who earn alot less than the public sector and have no superior pensions take the pain just to afford the high wages of the public sector?

Odysseus

gurramok wrote: »

Why should the private sector who earn alot less than the public sector and have no superior pensions take the pain just to afford the high wages of the public sector?

Why should the public sector be exempt, as for pensions mine will be so superior I will be entitled to a state one on top of it.

Odysseus

JFlah wrote: »

I will do i,m not trying to have a go at you , and you obviosly know this feeling thats prevelant

Yes, that's why I decided today I no longer need to defend my wages of terms and conditions to the general public. I do that to my line manager.

gurramok

Odysseus wrote: »

Why should the public sector be exempt, as for pensions mine will be so superior I will be entitled to a state one on top of it.

Yes, they are exempt already due to CPA. High wages are the problem in the public sector(along with welfare), not frontline services which will suffer.

ejmaztec

No-one should be exempt from taking a hit. Whatever misguided ill-feelings there are towards those working in the public sector now, will be a hell of a lot worse over the next few years, only the ill-feelings won't be misguided.

Merzbow

Odysseus wrote: »

Yes, that's why I decided today I no longer need to defend my wages of terms and conditions to the general public. I do that to my line manager.

Your line manager who is also on the public payroll?

At the end of the day, we can argue about whether the PS pay should be cut but it will be completely irrelevant. The money is just not there, the cuts 100% have to happen. Whether it's by the Irish govt or the EU (emergency funds) or the IMF.

We owe almost €100 billion now, and by the end of the 10 year loan terms of these bonds almost €70 billion will be owed in interest alone. + add any borrowing we have to make in 2011-2020 you are looking at total repayments of €250 - €350 billion. That's 1/3 of a trillion euro. We don't have the GDP or level of exports to afford such repayments. It simply cannot go on. Arguing here is pointless, the cuts must happen.

Odysseus

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, they are exempt already due to CPA. High wages are the problem in the public sector(along with welfare), not frontline services which will suffer.

For a certain amount of them, as I said myself and other people i.e. different types of clinicians who also do private work that is not the case. Most I know can get more in the private sector. By all means hit those made up positions in admin, tbh a lot of them could go never mind cut.

Yo Buddy. You still alive?

Fuk the bond people who took a gamble on our banks.

There are years of pain ahead regardless so just fuk them.

The builders/developers sold the banks a good story, the banks gave them money that they got by selling on the story to the wider finacial market and now that the story turns out to be a pile of crap. WE have to give the banks/bond holders back their money?

How fuking stupid are we as a country.

The budget is not for us it, is for the bonds/banks

Our budget is not to keep hospitals open or make them better. It is not for our people to have better lives.

It is for a load of bollix.

We are fuking stupid tbh.