Formula 1: 2010 Brazilian Grand Prix (Round 18 of 19)

Vegeta

LIGHTNING wrote: »

How so? If Alonso throws it off next weekend and Vettel is winning he can win the WC. It made perfect sense for the two RB guys to keep racing, if the same happens next week Vettel will pull over. He would be the biggest selfish git if he didnt do so and any half decent driver would pull over to let his teammate win the WC.

EDIT: Never mind I made a balls of that post.

All things considered, reliability, driver error etc if I were a team boss I would rather have Webber 1 point behind than the current situation.

frostie500

I think its commendable that Red Bull didnt emply team orders but it's a shortsighted decision that could easily come back to bite the team. While Vettel is still in contention his hopes are hanging by a thread-he needs Alonso to finish outside the top four(not likely barring mechanical problems) and instead of Webber needing just a win he now has to rely on Alonso finishing below third. It's a can of worms that could have been easily avoided by telling Vettel to allow Webber past.

Below is a link to a post on my site that might of interest. It also goes into one of the possible situations that could arise if Alonso does retire.

Red Bull wins the Brazilian battle, could could have cost itself the war

Myrddin

lord lucan wrote: »

Enjoyed yesterdays race. I had to laugh at Hamilton doing another one of his whiny child acts,"i've no grip,i've no grip"!! He really does throw the toys out of the pram when he's not happy or it's not going for him.

Set up for a cracker in Abu Dhabi,i'm really hoping the top 4 just go for it and throw caution to the wind.

frostie500 wrote: »

I think Martin Brundle hit the nail on the head with Hamilton's comments of this nature. It doesnt give the team any information on how to solve the problem so it is just Lewis rationalising why he is struggling to overtake someone. I thought it was a great point made by Brundle and one that many, including myself, had overlooked

Brundle is indeed right, but the guy is only human too. It must be hugely frustrating to see the opposition pull away while your struggling with understeer, & trying to fight for the championship at the same time. It's rationalisation, frustration, anger, & disappointment all in one go. Button had big grip issues too, so it's not purely a 'Hamilmoan'. Its like a desperate plea shrouded in seething anger at the car & it's lack of consistency.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If he stoppped wrecking his tyres as soon as he gets them he might stop getting huge amounts of understeer.

He's a racer, there were two races left for the title...I'd expect him to gun it. Would you really expect him to sit back & let the title slip without a fight?

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

He's a racer, there were two races left for the title...I'd expect him to gun it. Would you really expect him to sit back & let the title slip without a fight?

Gunning it is what cost him the 2007 title, and a chance with this one with the DNFs in Italy and Singapore, though the Singapore one wasn't really his fault.

Myrddin

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

It is easy for us to say, but other drivers seem to be able to keep their heads and think logically during a race.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

It is easy for us to say, but other drivers seem to be able to keep their heads and think logically during a race.

Well Alonso & the RB's are comfortable in the hunt, so you won't see steam until the weekend. Button was too far downfield in Korea to see steam & effectively saw him out of the hunt. Hamilton was just lying in the spot between keeping contention & dropping out...thats why he drove over the limit. Nobody else is in the hunt, so any steam you see from the rest is purely race-by-race.

frostie500

EnterNow wrote: »

It's all easy to say from the comfort of a chair. I highly doubt if any of us were sitting at the wheel of that McLaren with two races to go & a big lead to make up, that we'd be thinking strategically. The car is lacking downforce/grip, even Button who is superb at minding his tyres has been struggling with tyre wear & lack of grip. It was either gun it & hope for the best, or mind your tyres accept defeat & be happy he was a championship contender. I don't think he's that kind of driver really.

He's one of the highest paid drivers on the grid, and a world champion, so he should be capable of making his tyres last throughout a race. Schumacher was one of the most aggressive drivers in history but he also knew that the fastest way to the flag wasnt always driving flat out. I'm surprised with Hamilton though because at some stages this year we have seen a newfound maturity

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You can drive hard without wrecking your tyres, plenty of other drivers on the grid managed to do it over the weekend.

In the McLaren?

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

In the McLaren?

It's happened before this season when Button could manage them and Lewis couldn't, it's also happened the other way when Button way overdrove his car trying to get heat into his tyres. Hamilton seems to just have no internal modulator, it's all or nothing and that's it.

Also it's not just this season I'm talking about, look at Italy I think last year when he had a podium in the bag and on the last or second last lap smashed his car up.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

it's all or nothing and that's it.

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

Vegeta

EnterNow wrote: »

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

The car is fundamentally too slow and that's it.

Hamilton (and Button in this race) could probably have driven more conservatively and saved the tyres for a bit but he was trying to catch 3 faster cars/drivers. He had to push to do this and in doing so the tyres didn't last.

Rock and a hard place. If the car had the performance he wouldn't have to dog the thing and the tyres would last.

Saying that there are race engineers sitting in the comfort of a chair and people back at the factory, they could tell him to take it a little easier to preserve tyres. I don't think it would have mattered here though as the top 3 would just pull further away if he went into tyre saving mode.

It's a compromise between drive hard, catch and overtake. When you get in front your tyres might not be best but the guy behind is in dirty air now and will find it tough to get past. OR protect tyres, but if the pace isn't there and the leaders are pulling away when you are both saving tyres then what can you do really

EvilMonkey

EnterNow wrote: »

Agreed, & that shows he still has some maturing to do. I just think it's a bit short-sighted the way Hamilton is in the firing line, when in fact the tyres on both McLarens went off, one at the hands of a really good tyre minder. It's easy to blame the agressive driver for it, but it's clearly not the only problem.

Easier to blame the car. The tyres were ok for what they needed at that point. He was faster than the cars behind the ones he need to build a gap from to get the pit stop without being stuck behind them. Did he want them to pit him early and put him into traffic? Because i remember another race they did that and he couldn't overtake and came over the radio saying it was a stupid idea.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think the McLaren is slow, its better on some tracks than the RB6 and the Ferrari.

It's visibly slower than the RB6 & the Ferarri in the hands of Alonso. It's not slow per se, but its nowhere near where it needs to be in terms of pace.

frostie500

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think the McLaren is slow, its better on some tracks than the RB6 and the Ferrari. The problem is that the Red Bull was untouchable this weekend and no amount of pushing by the McLarens was going to catch them.

Great point Lightning, none of the leading cars are slow. Its just that in a season as competitive as this we all notice shortcomings from both teams and drivers. With the pressure on everyone it is understandable that we have seen driver and team errors. Brazil suited the Red Bull more than the McLaren just as McLaren had an advantage at certain races. It's a shame for us that Lewis had his DNFs-especially Spain and Hungary-but its a similar story for all the contenders-each has somewhere that cost them points that with them could see a totally different championship table. fascinating season on so many levels because of this competition and in my mind at least we've gained a great insight into the psyche of each leading driver

lord lucan

Anyone else think that Andrea Stella(Alonso's race engineer) sounds like the Count from Sesame st.? I do be in stitches laughing every time he comes on the radio!




Fernando,there are TWO cars in front of you AH AH AH AH AH!:D

Ghost Train

McLaren seem to be fine in a straight line but they're just not generating the downforce or grip in the higher speed corners

Ferrari seem to be closer to RedBull in the races but qualifying shows they're still a bit off

amacachi

I'm wondering if Button's tyres did go off yesterday, I thought he just pitted early to get out of the pack

amacachi

I also have to question where McLaren will be going from here with Button and Hamilton. Button is known to be poor at car set-up and I've not heard any praise for Hamilton in that regard either. Have they got a decent test driver?

lord lucan

amacachi wrote: »

I'm wondering if Button's tyres did go off yesterday, I thought he just pitted early to get out of the pack

I thought Buttons tyres seemed fine. There was no expressions of concern over the radio about them and i was of the same opinion that his first stop was to get him out of the train behind Hulkenburg.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

I'm wondering if Button's tyres did go off yesterday, I thought he just pitted early to get out of the pack

I thought it was just strategy, Same at the safety car they could have continued but had a chance to put fresh tyres on with no penalty.

EvilMonkey

lord lucan wrote: »

Anyone else think that Andrea Stella(Alonso's race engineer) sounds like the Count from Sesame st.? I do be in stitches laughing every time he comes on the radio!




Fernando,there are TWO cars in front of you AH AH AH AH AH!:D

"Beautiful, Beautiful, Now we push"

frostie500

amacachi wrote: »

I also have to question where McLaren will be going from here with Button and Hamilton. Button is known to be poor at car set-up and I've not heard any praise for Hamilton in that regard either. Have they got a decent test driver?

Gary Pafett is their tester(Paul di Resta is also on a long term deal as far as I know) but both have limited F1 experience. They might be a team that would chase Nickl Heidfeld at the end of the season.

Its pretty clear that Heidfeld has nowhere to go for 2011 so the chance to become a tester with McLaren might be quite appealing to him and the team could as you say do with an experienced driver to help with development and hopefully stop the team finding so many blind allies with their simulator that havent translated to the track

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I dont think its really off the pace.

Hamilton radioed in to see if his f-duct was woking, & said in the post race interview he felt it wasn't working as he was struggling to overtake back-markers on the straight. He stated you can't win if your car isn't fast enough too.

Button was more happy with his setup, but stated in his post race interview that "we're just not fast enough at the moment".

Some tracks might suit the McLaren, but the vast majority of them leave the car wanting badly in pace. But yeah, you can't blame the car purely for the problems, both Lewis & Jenson have made mistakes during the season, & both have had some bad luck - as have all the drivers.

The McLaren might have been a contender this year if the RB6 wasn't around, but seeing as it is, it's untouchable. What an incredible season to date, I'd really hate to have it ruined by Vettel winning it & waving those fingers about for the next year.

EvilMonkey

EnterNow wrote: »

Hamilton radioed in to see if his f-duct was woking, & said in the post race interview he felt it wasn't working as he was struggling to overtake back-markers on the straight. He stated you can't win if your car isn't fast enough too.

And he was told he was one of the fastest on the straight and set the fastest lap of the race(he did have fresh tyres).

Vegeta

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I disagree on some of the tracks the McLaren looks unbeatable, I dont think its really off the pace. Without more info its really hard to tell what happened over the weekend. They (McLaren) could have just got their setups all wrong, its hard to know.

Now that I looked at the figures the McLaren Car has qualified (at best) an average of 4th over the season with the Ferrari being slightly worse. So over the course of the season the McLaren has been a faster car.

In Brazil the fastest lap was by Lewis Hamilton in lap 66. Interesting Edit: yeah it was fresh tyres which caused this really

Yeah not much between McLaren and Ferrari but clearly the RB6 car is in a class of its own

EvilMonkey

McLaren were faster than Ferrari at the first half of the season, Second half Ferrari were faster but not much between them and McLaren varying depending on track, form, drivers. Remember Alonso was happy after a poor result in Silverstone because the car was back on the pace.

Spudzzmurphy

Slightly off topic here,but did anyone notice that Eddie Jordan was the only one of the three presenters not wearing a POPPY on his lapel. :eek:

Spudzzmurphy

LIGHTNING wrote: »

OT but why should he? The poppy is worn for Armistice Day which isnt a holiday in Ireland.We have our own memorial day for our troops that died in WW1, I dont see any other nations people commerating our day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Commemoration

"The poppy is worn for Armistice Day which isnt a holiday in Ireland"
I am quite aware of the above information.
But I have seen quite a few non British celebrates//Sportspeople, wearing them on the TV in the last few days.