HPS ammo

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

'TTP'?

Taking The mickey Perhaps?

fish slapped

:D:D So in short -- yes it's worth the 50 odd euro to try out a box of hps rounds !!

leupold90

To answer the original question and not get involved in a pointless p***ing contest about ballistics.

I've used 155g HPS and have found them to be every bit as good as other match grade rounds. At €50 a box they're about half the cost of Lapua, Hornady etc. Get a box and try them, you won't be disapointed.

Cass

Yes fish slapped in short they are completely worth it.

leupold90 wrote: »

To answer the original question and not get involved in a pointless p***ing contest about ballistics..

There is no p***ing contest going on here, merely a debate about the pros and cons of which is possibly better and for what reasons. Too many times people advise others of how good something is, but with no explanation as to why. Also in target shooting the more you understand about all aspects of the rifle, barrel, scope and MOST IMPORTANTLY the bullet the better you can adapt, change to get the best possible results.

ranger4

tac foley wrote: »

Many target rifle shooters in the rest of the world still use moly-coated bullets.

Three of the four on our range today, shooting-in their new barrels, were shooting moly-coated bullets.

tac

Shoot moly coated Bergers and coated Lapuas with my 308-243 barrels but will scrub out my 1 in 11 twist 308 barrel and try the 190g HPS Loading, anyone able to give FPS with the 190-200g HPS ammo, Thanks.

Cass

190 gr - 2745 fps (average)

200 gr - 2720 fps (average)


From a 1:12 twist, 30" barrel, and scope with 0.25 click value a "standard" drop chart would be as follows;


190 gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 ________ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

4.75

---

11.5

---

13.5

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.25

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

19

---

46

---

54

---

97

---

118

---

141

---

> Clicks


200gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 _______ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

5

---

11.5

---

14

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.5

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

20

---

46

---

56

---

97

---

118

---

142

---

> Clicks

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

190 gr - 2745 fps (average)

200 gr - 2720 fps (average)


From a 1:12 twist, 30" barrel, and scope with 0.25 click value a "standard" drop chart would be as follows;


190 gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 ________ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

4.75

---

11.5

---

13.5

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.25

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

19

---

46

---

54

---

97

---

118

---

141

---

> Clicks


200gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 _______ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

5

---

11.5

---

14

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.5

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

20

---

46

---

56

---

97

---

118

---

142

---

> Clicks

In lay mans terms, what is the drop of the 200 grain @ 1000 yards just out of interest? (inches or feet)

and do you go from your 25yard zero?

ranger4

ezridax wrote: »

190 gr - 2745 fps (average)

200 gr - 2720 fps (average)


From a 1:12 twist, 30" barrel, and scope with 0.25 click value a "standard" drop chart would be as follows;


190 gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 ________ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

4.75

---

11.5

---

13.5

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.25

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

19

---

46

---

54

---

97

---

118

---

141

---

> Clicks


200gr

100 ______ 200 ______ 300 _________ 500 ________ 600 _________ 800 __________ 900 ________ 1,000 _______ Yards

- 0

---

1

---

5

---

11.5

---

14

---

24.25

---

29.5

---

35.5

---

> MOA

- 0

---

4

---

20

---

46

---

56

---

97

---

118

---

142

---

> Clicks

Thanks for info, Wonder is the powder used for the lighter 155-175g matchking HPS offerings N140 and for the heavier 180g+ bullets N150.

Cass

ranger4 wrote: »

.........., Wonder is the powder used for the lighter 155-175g matchking HPS offerings N140 and for the heavier 180g+ bullets N150.

I would imagine the powder used for the 155 gr is definitely N140 as Vihtavuoru is/seems to be his powder of choice. Trying to find exact info on the bullet make up is hard as Carmichael does not advertise what his loads are. I'm assuming he is using a slower burning powder for the heavier loads to guarantee stability during flight. The BC of the heavier bullets helps maintain its speed at the longer distances.

Again this is all assumption/SWAG as the only man to accurately answer these questions would be Carmihael himself. Is he a member here and we'll ask him?

Tackleberrywho wrote:

In lay mans terms, what is the drop of the 200 grain @ 1000 yards just out of interest? (inches or feet)..........

A rudimentary way of converting MOA to actual measurable units is to multiply the MOA you know for a distance by the the amount of inches per MOA for that distance and then divide by 12 (as in inches per foot) to give you the drop in feet.

Example:

You have 11.5 MOA at 500 yds for a 200 gr bullet.
You have 5 inches per 1 MOA (4 clicks) at 500 yards.

So 11.5 x 5 = 57.5 /divided by 12 (inches per foot) and you get 4.79 feet.

Put all the info into a ballistics calculator and at 500 yds you get 56.5 inches or 4.71 feet.

.............and do you go from your 25yard zero?

What 25 yd zero? I keep a 100 yd zero on the rifle at all times. Maybe you are refering to the 25 yd SAFETY zero that all shooters must use before being allowed to fire on the windmill range.

ranger4

I would imagine the powder used for the 155 gr is definitely N140 as Vihtavuoru is/seems to be his powder of choice. Trying to find exact info on the bullet make up is hard as Carmichael does not advertise what his loads are. I'm assuming he is using a slower burning powder for the heavier loads to guarantee stability during flight. The BC of the heavier bullets helps maintain its speed at the longer distances.


Would also imagine N150 or similar single based propellent would be used with 180g+ weight bullets rather than a Large charge weight of double based propellent such as N550 which would Lead to a compressed charge when seating to standard OAL.

dCorbus

Wasn't sure about responding to an earlier post, but for the sake of setting the record straight, I felt I'd "exercise my right to reply";):D (that's a wink and a smilie).

Tac, IMO your post from yesterday evening was possibly one of the most condescending (Did I spell that good, sir?) that I've read on here in a very long while and therefore I didn't feel that it could be left to stand without a response.

So here we go (and apologies in advance for going off the reservation on this one):

Sir - it's posts like this one if yours that make me wonder why I bother to get out of bed some mornings.

Sheesh, tac, you really need to get out more if my posts make you wonder why you bother to get out of bed some mornings. Seriously. No mans posts should make another man that distraught.:D (smiley face grin)

No, I don't have a target rifle.

No, I don't shoot target rifle.

You don't?
Eh?
I'm confused? (little icon of confused man)

To quote from one of your previous posts on another thread:

I have a twenty-five-year old Krico 650S in .308Win, and an even older K31-actioned TR with a Schultz & Larsen barrel

So, which is it? Do you have a Target Rifle or do you not?

I DO know a man who makes them, although with all the fine target rifle builders you have over in the RoI I doubt if his name means anything to you.

His name is Norman Clark.

He builds target rifles.

Please do your fellow posters the courtesy of refraining from such condescending comments, if you don't mind.

Some of us in the Little Ol' RoI do in fact know something about something - and of course, I and many others are well aware of who Norman Clark is. And, gee wiz, some of us even have seen and, lo', have touched such Norman Clark rifles.

So, please get down off your high horse.

They ALL have barrels of around 30" or longer.

There were four of his rifles on our range today [two in 6.5-284, one in 6.5AI and one in .308Win. He is a member of our gun club - and all had either 30" or 32" barrels - designed to 'beat the bump' that the .308Win round seems to suffer, and ensure that the bullet is still supersonic at 900m/1000yds.

So what you really meant to say in your previous post was that all Fullbore TR Target Rifles manufactured by Norman Clark that you are familiar with from your club, range, and experience all have 30'' or longer barrels?

Not exactly the same thing as stating that "target rifle barrels are 30" or longer", is it?

I can only presume that you are posting about Fullbore Target Rifles (capital T, capital R - otherwise referred to on occassion as TR rifles, Palma Rifles, Bisley Rifles, etc.) - the OP was asking, and I was referring to target rifles (lower case t, lower case r - i.e. those rifles intended for use shooting targets, and not the very specific case of TR to which you refer).

You are 100% correct (AFAIK) that Norman Clark Fullbore TR rifles and pretty much every Fullbore TR / Palma rifle I've ever seen or heard about has at least a 30'' barrel - but that was not what I was referring to nor was it the type of rifle or shooting to which the OP was referring to either.

Fish slapped refers to his AI and whether the HPS 155gr 308's would be good or not.

(Of course, AFAIK there's nothing to stop fish slapped from setting up his AI as a TR rifle and I will happily stand corrected if in fact this is his intention)

Look at a line-up at Bisley, and show me the 26" barrelled target rifles there.

Last time I checked there was more that one range on the planet - Bisley ain't the only one, as I'm sure you know.

And, to which particular event at Bisley are you referring? I presume the Imperial - but, hey, there's other events, shoots, competitions, etc. held in Bisley (or so one is led to believe - sometimes we do recieve information in little ol' Ireland from the Mainland, soir, your lordship, top o' the mornin' to ya:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D - Lots of Icons indicating Major Sarcasm and a Smiley Grinned Face for good measure, in case you can't see emoticons over there across the Waters.)

Are you now going to tell us that a 26'' barrelled rifle has never shot a target in Bisley or on any other target range in the UK or elsewhere?

Perhaps you are confusing me with somebody else?

I don't believe I am.

If you want to carry this on, please do it by PM

Public posts should be addressed publicly IMO

And lastly, next time you feel the need to correct my spelling - please, at least get your own spelling correct.

dC

bunny shooter

Who said target shooters are/aren't elitist

Mr.Flibble

ezridax wrote: »

A rudimentary way of converting MOA to actual measurable units is to multiply the MOA you know for a distance by the the amount of inches per MOA for that distance and then divide by 12 (as in inches per foot) to give you the drop in feet.

Example:

You have 11.5 MOA at 500 yds for a 200 gr bullet.
You have 5 inches per 1 MOA (4 clicks) at 500 yards.

So 11.5 x 5 = 57.5 /divided by 12 (inches per foot) and you get 4.79 feet.

Put all the info into a ballistics calculator and at 500 yds you get 56.5 inches or 4.71 feet.

What a convoluted way of not answering the question!

The answer is c.31 feet

Cass

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

What a convoluted way of not answering the question!

The answer is c.31 feet

Did you use the method i gave to work that out?

I thought i'd give Tackleberrywho a way to work out the drop in feet for himself. I don't see him complaining.

Cass

ranger4 wrote: »

Would also imagine N150 or similar single based propellent would be used with 180g+ weight bullets rather than a Large charge weight of double based propellent such as N550 which would Lead to a compressed charge when seating to standard OAL.

I'll happily cede to your higher knowledge of powder/bullet loads. Your statement verges on a knowledge of reloading which i must admit i'm a virgin to and in no position to either agree or debate the point with you. My understanding of HPS comes mainly from alot of use and reading as much info on them that i can.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Did you use the method i gave to work that out?

I thought i'd give Tackleberrywho a way to work out the drop in feet for himself. I don't see him complaining.

Thanks Ezri, you answered what was asked
I am not very familiar with MOA as I rarely shoot out past 400yards with the .223.
I have a hunting .308 so I doubt I'll be shooting out past 300 with it either.

I would like to test the .223 out to 600, just to see what she could do.
However you may help me out with the 25yard safety zeroing as I have never done that.(it's prob fairly simple, but I would like to be shown the right way)
I do appreciate that the 55grain ammo may be too feeble to group @600 (but for a bit of craic it would be interesting)

Cass

MOA is not a hard thing to understand Tack. Its 4 clicks (assuming you have a 1/4 click value scope). So the table for the different distances would look as follows:

• 100 yards - 1 click = 1/4 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 1 inch @ 100 yards.
• 200 yards - 1 click = 1/2 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 2 inches @ 200 yards.
• 300 yards - 1 click = 3/4 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 3 inch @ 300 yards.
• 400 yards - 1 click = 1 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 4 inches @ 400 yards.
• 500 yards - 1 click = 1+1/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 5 inch @ 500 yards.
• 600 yards - 1 click = 1+1/2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 6 inches @ 600 yards.
• 700 yards - 1 click = 1+3/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 7 inch @ 700 yards.
• 800 yards - 1 click = 2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 8 inches @ 800 yards.
• 900 yards - 1 click = 2+1/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 9 inch @ 900 yards.
• 1,000 yards - 1 click = 2+1/2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 10 inches @ 1,000 yards.

One thing i always say, and i don't know how "true" it is, but it makes sense is, the click value of a scope is not a 100% indicator, but a guide. To explain that, if you are firing at 300 yards and you are 6 inches low. According to the table above you should have to click up 8 clicks or 2 MOA. You do this and fire again and you are 1/2 inch high. The idea of the scope clicks are to give you an accurate (as possible) guide to how many clicks/MOA you must adjust the scope to hit your target. Otherwise you would be clicking up/down/left/right without any real idea of effect on the bullets POI.

Remember not every rifle or bullet will act the same or to the same "rules" as the scope does because of twist rates, barrel length, MV, etc, etc.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

MOA is not a hard thing to understand Tack. Its 4 clicks (assuming you have a 1/4 click value scope). So the table for the different distances would look as follows:

• 100 yards - 1 click = 1/4 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 1 inch @ 100 yards.
• 200 yards - 1 click = 1/2 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 2 inches @ 200 yards.
• 300 yards - 1 click = 3/4 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 3 inch @ 300 yards.
• 400 yards - 1 click = 1 inch. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 4 inches @ 400 yards.
• 500 yards - 1 click = 1+1/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 5 inch @ 500 yards.
• 600 yards - 1 click = 1+1/2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 6 inches @ 600 yards.
• 700 yards - 1 click = 1+3/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 7 inch @ 700 yards.
• 800 yards - 1 click = 2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 8 inches @ 800 yards.
• 900 yards - 1 click = 2+1/4 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 9 inch @ 900 yards.
• 1,000 yards - 1 click = 2+1/2 inches. So 4 clicks or 1 MOA = 10 inches @ 1,000 yards.

Remember not every rifle or bullet will act the same or to the same "rules" as the scope does because of twist rates, barrel length, MV, etc, etc.

Right, I've never shot 500 to cal bullet drop, but the Hornady drop for 300 and 400 seems to work well enough in my rifler set up.(24" Hornady Vs my 26" 1/12 Remmy barrel)

Would you trust the MOA reticles on NF more than the clicks, I don't normally click (as I found I was hitting high) so your theory works.
My NXS 8-32 Reticle has 2MOA @100. I was using the second or third line down when shooting the .223 (with a 200 yard zero) @ 300 - 400

I'd be afraid clicking that I would forget to click back to my zero point if shooting at the same distance for a while

The vertical line of the NP-R2 reticle is divided into 2 M.O.A. increments (approx. 2 inches at 100 yards). These vertical increments are used for range estimation, multiple zero points and accurate bullet drop compensation. Any size target can be easily ranged using a simple formula: (target size in inches ÷ M.O.A. x 100 = range in yards). Once range is determined select an appropriate hold point based on the bullet drop of your cartridge. The vertical spacings can easily be split into 1 M.O.A. increments further enhancing long-range accuracy. The horizontal line is divided into equal 5 M.O.A. increments for windage compensation.


I've never really used the NF reticle system to it's full potential, it would be nice to see what she can do when pushed.

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Would you trust the MOA reticles on NF more than the clicks, I don't normally click (as I found I was hitting high) so your theory works.

Yes i would, but i rarely use them simply because i've shot the distances and gotten my exact clicks for that distance.

My NXS 8-32 Reticle has 2MOA @100. I was using the second or third line down when shooting the .223 (with a 200 yard zero) @ 300 - 400

Remember that the ranging lines on a NF scope only work when the scope is set to its ranging magnification. For an 8-32 scope that would be 22 power. Any other magnification setting would give you more or less than 2MOA at 100 yards.

I'd be afraid clicking that I would forget to click back to my zero point if shooting at the same distance for a while

Thats why i get my 100 yard zero then remove the turret and set it to zero. This would work great or better for you as if you are shooting out to 400 yards max (for the time being) you would need no more than 10 MOA. So if you got your 100 yard zero, clicked up for the necessary distance shot at that distance for a while when you want to go back to your 100 yard zero you simply dial the scope/turret back down to "zero" setting on the turret.

The vertical line of the NP-R2 reticle is divided into 2 M.O.A. increments (approx. 2 inches at 100 yards). These vertical increments are used for range estimation, multiple zero points and accurate bullet drop compensation. Any size target can be easily ranged using a simple formula: (target size in inches ÷ M.O.A. x 100 = range in yards). Once range is determined select an appropriate hold point based on the bullet drop of your cartridge. The vertical spacings can easily be split into 1 M.O.A. increments further enhancing long-range accuracy. The horizontal line is divided into equal 5 M.O.A. increments for windage compensation.

From NF's website? Its a good solution and obviously there is no better a source of how to work the scope than from the manufacturer themselves. Only problem is guessing the size of the target. Also you need to know what your bullet drop is in order to adjust your hold point. If you haven't shot at various ranges then you will not know your bullet drop so again the ranging lines become useless to you. Again i do not need this as i have my clicks/MOA for all my distances and as i do target shooting these distances are a constant, hence never change.

I've never really used the NF reticle system to it's full potential, it would be nice to see what she can do when pushed.

I love NF scopes. They are cheaper than some other higher end scopes, easier to use, reliable, accurate and come with a lifetime warranty. They are fully capable of any action you want to carry out at most any distance. I rarely use the ranging lines (hash marks) so i cannot go into depth on their usefulness however i would assume based on the excellent performance of the scope and its clicks/MOA accuracy that they would work just as well.

Next time you are in the club i'll take you down and run through the 25yd zero and see where it goes from there. Try the .308 also. Having a full and "real world" drop chart for 100 - 600yds would be handy to have.

Vegeta

The Nightforce reticles are in the second focal plane so the range estimation and therefore MOA only work as indicated at the magnification marked R on the scope magnification power ring.

Also the Nightforce target turrets can be loosened and re-set to 0 when you are zeroed. That way if you do forget to dial down all you do is look at the turret and if it is not zero then you're not on zero.



Ahhh too slow ezridax got there before me and with a much more detailed answer

Tackleberrywho

I've plenty of ammo for the .223 to mess about with, I don't have enough .308 ammo at the mo, I must get another import of HPS 125grain Nosler (I want the chart for ammo I use)

I'd like to do that, it's the same reticle on my .308 which would make things slightly easier.

Cheers for that Ezridax!

Cass

Vegeta wrote: »

Ahhh too slow ezridax got there before me and with a much more detailed answer

Sorry.

Combination of unemployment and a slow TV day. Nothing better to do than hunt for posts.

Tack you would need about 20 - 25 rounds of each to do a standard chart. Whenever you have the ammo and are ready give me a shout and i'll organise a day to meet you and go through it. Its simple, it really is.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Sorry.

Combination of unemployment and a slow TV day. Nothing better to do than hunt for posts.

Tack you would need about 20 - 25 rounds of each to do a standard chart. Whenever you have the ammo and are ready give me a shout and i'll organise a day to meet you and go through it. Its simple, it really is.

Well I have 80 .223 rounds (i think I have 28 .308 plenty for deer, not for plinking)


In regards to slow TV Day?
I'm doing college work whilst in bed, replying to boards posts and in work for ~6pm.

I won't be doing anything with the .308, I'm getting a PSE Graef Stock for it this week. So I'll need any spare ammo to rezero.

The .223 looks like the best candidate for the job.:)

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

............ (i think I have 28 .308 plenty for deer, not for plinking)

For what its worth the BC of the 125 gr Nosler is lower than the HPS 155 gr, but with a higher MV (Nosler) out to 600yds there would be little difference between them. So just a though, but with a 1:12 twist 26" barreled .308 you could get a box ox HPS 155gr and use them. As previously discussed they are available in some dealers here and are 1/2 the price of the Nosler. So you could use the 155 to get you your drops then when you get the 125 gr use one to two rounds at each distance to get the exact MOA for them.

Just a thought if you wanted to try it.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

For what its worth the BC of the 125 gr Nosler is lower than the HPS 155 gr, but with a higher MV (Nosler) out to 600yds there would be little difference between them. So just a though, but with a 1:12 twist 26" barreled .308 you could get a box ox HPS 155gr and use them. As previously discussed they are available in some dealers here and are 1/2 the price of the Nosler. So you could use the 155 to get you your drops then when you get the 125 gr use one to two rounds at each distance to get the exact MOA for them.

Just a thought if you wanted to try it.

Does Slim sell them?
I might buy a box for the craic.
155grain hornady's worked well in mine
So 155grain HPS I would imagine should work well too.

I don't know when i'll be going north again, I've limited free time. So locally sourced HPS would suit.

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Does Slim sell them?

Yes. €52 per 50.

So 155grain HPS I would imagine should work well too.
.

Your Remmy is 1:12, 26". So thats the same as a TRG. So they will work perfectly.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

Yes. €52 per 50.




Your Remmy is 1:12, 26". So thats the same as a TRG. So they will work perfectly.

Wooooooah, my Remmy .223 1/12 is 26", my .308 is a teenie 20":eek:

Too many remmy's lol

Cass

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

...........", my .308 is a teenie 20":eek:

A pity, not a problem.

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

A pity, not a problem.

With the Mod on she is still small, a dainty compact rifle.

I've to go to pick up my new stock this week of Mr Graef.
So aprés instal/Qual I'll be ready to try her out.

And again (as I am awkward) I will do all the shooting with the Mod on :eek:

It may slow the round down, but it makes shooting nicer

fish slapped

Have a looky at this one then 162 barrel on a .308!!

http://cz-usa.com/products/view/550-UCS/