dental tourism hungary

Havelock12

Obviously you can get a lot of cosmetic dentistry work abroad, but does this include invisible braces. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of getting brace work such as Invisalign done abroad?

Retrovertigo

Big_G wrote: »

You'll find it hard to find a dentist in Ireland who uses belleglass apart from temporary crowns. You basically got composite fillings, and the dentist called them inlays/onlays because they were made in a lab. That's perfectly fine, but they probably only last slightly longer than ordinary direct composites. Calculus removal sounds fancy but is just a cleaning.

As for your build up crown, which do you think a dentist makes more money on, a crown or an extraction? Do you think he will give you your money back if/when your crown fails and the tooth needs to be extracted anyway? Some teeth shouldn't be saved.

Cheers for the educated reply.

I know that calculus removal was cleaning but I just copied everything over for the sake of quoting what I had done. The dentist had quoted me composite fillings with the exception of one. If it lasts longer than normal then I'll be happy.

As for the crown, I'm under no illusion that it's going to last forever. As far as I was concerned the tooth was gone and I bought more time for a minimal price. It was a molar so I wouldn't exactly consider it money badly spent, far cheaper than the alternative of an implant.

I'm not looking to bash Irish dentists. I've had extensive and expensive work done over many years and I looked for an alternative. I did my research and knew what consequences and chances before I went, I wasn't a tourist.

I was happy with the results and when it comes down to it, hands down I would recommend people make the effort to do the same if they can.

davo10

Retrovertigo wrote: »

LMAO! Wow, my post angered you so much you decided to go for a personal attack? Definitely someone I'd trust when it comes to giving advise!

Not at all, it's not anger, it's reality. I'm merely making the point that your employer could employ three eastern europeans to do your job for the wage you are being paid. Today's Indo has an article saying that there are discussions to reduce the minimum wage here as it is the second highest in Europe, This may mean that your wage may come down closer to what is being paid in Hungary, if that happens then do not be a hypocrite and complain, you are being paid far more than a worker in Budapest.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-minimum-wage-on-the-table-2419382.html



We are all in the same boat, consumers who shout about lower prices elsewhere should be prepared to accept the lowering of their wages/standard of living if they want those prices here.

That's my point and I wasn't offering advice, when people say to me they are thinking of going abroad I say "Bon Voyage" then I turn to my nurse and say "bring in the next patient please", it does not bother me in the slightest, one of the growth sectors of my clinic is the re-treatment of work done abroad. The patient pays more for re-treatment than if they had the work done with us in the first place due to the fact that there is increased time/work/lab fees required, so I have no problem with this.

Retrovertigo

Ok, didn't know you were in the profession. Makes even worse the fact you rage with statements like,

...your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street

I'd consider that raging. And as for the minimum wage, you're fooling yourself if you think it'll be dropped. It's NOT going to happen considering the unemployment crisis. You need to do more of your own homework rather than quoting articles and scaremongering.

I personally would be terrified to deal with a professional with an attitude like yours. Good look with your "growth sectors", not everyone who goes abroad comes back in misery from a hatchet job.

Mr Cawley

6. Conclusion from Dublin Dental hospital study "In the final analysis, the quality of dental care can only be judged by the long-term maintenance of oral health and the survival of patients’ teeth. Active involvement of the patient and dentist are required for success. There are insufficient data available to know if this is possible using the dental tourism model. Based on accepted standards of care and anecdotal evidence to date, it seems that there is substantial risk to patients travelling abroad for treatment. Patients need access to more information on dental tourism in order to make informed decisions."

Incompetent money hungry dentists,fact! take with pinch of salt.

davo10

Retrovertigo wrote: »

Ok, didn't know you were in the profession. Makes even worse the fact you rage with statements like,

...your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street

I'd consider that raging. And as for the minimum wage, you're fooling yourself if you think it'll be dropped. It's NOT going to happen considering the unemployment crisis. You need to do more of your own homework rather than quoting articles and scaremongering.

I personally would be terrified to deal with a professional with an attitude like yours. Good look with your "growth sectors", not everyone who goes abroad comes back in misery from a hatchet job.

C'mon, I referred to an article in the Sunday Indo, and the call for lower minimum wage is widespread among business owners and economists so no homework needed there. And I have no intention of scaremongering, I am saying that I do quite well from doing reparative work. My "attitude" is one of bemusement, I read post after post on different forums about the cost of goods and services here and how the consumer is paying to much but no one is willing to take a paycut so that the services would become less expensive, labour is the biggest cost of any business.

Incidently, a reduction in wages may increase competitativeness and consequently market share and employment, so again do not winge if you are effected.

Thank you for your good wishes, I have no need to see the good jobs done (which many of them are), hatchet jobs done abroad are good for business.

Retrovertigo

I don't believe you're a dentist and I reckon you're just trolling.

Stick to the "Indo", as your source of information and instead of accusing people of whinging and being overpaid you should stick to derailing threads elsewhere with your keyboard warrior antics.

On topic, if anyone has read this thread with the interest of going abroad, do your homework and then go. And don't bother posting here if it goes well as you'll be trolled by imaginary dentists with the maturity of a teenage girl.

(With the exception of Big_G), what you said actually made sense and I appreciate it.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Price X (Quality = longevity) = Value
1000 euro crown last 15 years and is replaced with another crowns = 66 euro per year over 15 years.
300 euro crown last 7 years and is replaced with an implant (1500 euro) = 120 euro per year over 15 years.
Value will only become apparent in the long term, I want people who had work done in 2000 or 2002 to post and tell us how it is holding up, and how much the repair work cost them in time, travel and pain.

I would point out that there are countries where the work will be a fraction of the cost of say Budapest, like Mexico or Argentina why not consider going there, the weather is better for the holiday. Several of the posters on hear have told us that the Irish dental tourist in eastern Europe is getting ripped off compared to what locals are charged for the same work, the extra distance is irrelevant as you have to get on a plane anyway, and you know about as much about dentistry in Mexico as anywhere other than Ireland (websites / tourism agencies will reassure you its high quality low cost etc)...so why not.? Anyone's mum been to Mexico for implants?

fred252

Meadow Millions Revolution wrote: »

Price X (Quality = longevity) = Value
1000 euro crown last 15 years and is replaced with another crowns = 66 euro per year over 15 years.
300 euro crown last 7 years and is replaced with an implant (1500 euro) = 120 euro per year over 15 years.
Value will only become apparent in the long term, I want people who had work done in 2000 or 2002 to post and tell us how it is holding up, and how much the repair work cost them in time, travel and pain.

I would point out that there are countries where the work will be a fraction of the cost of say Budapest, like Mexico or Argentina why not consider going there, the weather is better for the holiday. Several of the posters on hear have told us that the Irish dental tourist in eastern Europe is getting ripped off compared to what locals are charged for the same work, the extra distance is irrelevant as you have to get on a plane anyway, and you know about as much about dentistry in Mexico as anywhere other than Ireland (websites / tourism agencies will reassure you its high quality low cost etc)...so why not.? Anyone's mum been to Mexico for implants?

you're comparing apples with oranges. flying to hungary vs. argentina is a fraction of the cost. not to mention a fraction of the flight time which is a factor for those with few holidays to spare.

you've got one thing right: i'd take buenas aires over budapest anyday for a holiday.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

fred252 wrote: »

you're comparing apples with oranges. flying to hungary vs. argentina is a fraction of the cost. not to mention a fraction of the flight time which is a factor for those with few holidays to spare.

you've got one thing right: i'd take buenas aires over budapest anyday for a holiday.

Comparing apples with oranges is allowed on dental tourism threads infact you have to do that to convince yourself its good value.

Its only flight time and the cost is more than made up for in the saving you will make on your dental work. If a front tooth falls out without warning or you get a toothache your dentist might as well be on the moon if you have got to book a flight (no cheap flights when your in a hurry), hotel etc to see them. Any argument you make for Budapest versus Argentina goes the same (and is less ludicrous) for Ireland versus Budapest. Whats sauce for the goose......

fred252

Meadow Millions Revolution wrote: »

Comparing apples with oranges is allowed on dental tourism threads infact you have to do that to convince yourself its good value.

Its only flight time and the cost is more than made up for in the saving you will make on your dental work. If a front tooth falls out without warning or you get a toothache your dentist might as well be on the moon if you have got to book a flight (no cheap flights when your in a hurry), hotel etc to see them. Any argument you make for Budapest versus Argentina goes the same (and is less ludicrous) for Ireland versus Budapest. Whats sauce for the goose......

of course comparing apples with oranges is allowed. it is, however, pointless. its not just flight time and cost its the holiday thing too. a 2 day trip to buenas aires just isn't feasible whereas a 2 day trip to budapest is.

i do take your point regarding the advantage of using your own local dentist who will have your details on record and will see you incase of emergencies at the drop of a hat. i would add that i'd be inclined to "buy irish", so to speak, and give my business to irish dentists within reason. if, after subtracting flights and accom, the hungarians are only a few hundred quid cheaper i'd probably go local.

MajorMax

Big_G wrote: »

First of all, there is no such thing as a truly free market. It is a political construct. Second, the rules of free market economics don't apply perfectly to healthcare because it is a knowledge asymetry. Therefore, supply and demand are artificially imbalanced. There will always be a demand for healthcare treatments because people can't treat themselves. Secondly, and most importantly, if the costs of providing a service, any service, are higher than demand can dictate, that service can no longer be provided. Thirdly, you will not attract the kind of talent into a service industry if the rewards for the sacrifices early in the person's career are not appropriately rewarded later on.

The other point is that when comparing prices in a so-called free market economy, the most effective way to it is to compare like with like. The point that is being made by many in the know is that when comparing dentistry in Ireland with dental tourism (often times very complex treatment provided over short periods of time) you are NOT comparing like with like. You are paying less in Eastern Europe and getting less, as the 6000 dental tourists in Ireland who require remedial treatment at significant expense will attest to.

This is difficult for many people to understand, as Irish dentists do have a vested interest in keeping Irish patients in Ireland. Or so it would seem. 6000 patients multiplied by xEuro for remedial treatment is a good bit of dough for Irish dentists. For me, though, I've trained long and hard and I take a lot of satisfaction in my work. The money is secondary. I think I am lucky in that. I HATE seeing these charlatans in Eastern Europe butchering people and charging them for the privelege. It cheapens my profession, of which I am very proud.

The Hungarian dentist we went to gives a 10 year warranty on their work. Conditional on this warranty is a checkup every 6 months with a dentist here in Ireland. Any problems can be detected early and dealt with. I consider this excellent customer service and it is providing revenue to an Irish dentist

It seems a bit strong for you to label an entire countries dental professionals as charlatans and butchers. The dentist we dealt with in Budapest expressed nothing but respect and admiration for her colleagues in Ireland, she trained in Germany and had met several irish dentists on training courses there. You on the other hand have shown nothing but contempt for them. I think that says more about you than it does about them.

If the money is secondery, drop your prices. I guarantee you will see an increase in business. I consider the "An Béal Bocht" of the Irish dentist to be on a par with that of the Irish Taxi industry. You had a stranglehold on the market and you exploited your client base to the last penny. Now that there is some competition, you are bleating on and on. Deal with it, emigrate or retrain, those are your only realistic options.

You talk of butchered patients and shoddy work. Do you personally know and guarantee every dentist in Ireland? My ex-girlfriend/current wife was slapped and verbally abused as a child by her dentist. This led to a genuine fear of dentists. She initially visited a well known chain of dentists here in Ireland. They made certain assurances and promises to her that they couldn't deliver and made her immediate dental issues and expectations worse.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Here an apple to compare. This lady spent 6k (her husbands redundancy) on these teeth in Budapest half the price of Ireland and half the job IMHO...these also have a guarantee of 5 years although I would want them in my mouth for that long. What do you guys think. She may have had bad teeth before and gaps but now she has badly fitting, ugly and expensive bridges that will fail in the most hideous and expensive fashion. Re treatment for her is not an option. No money left, no replacement of lower teeth. Nerve problems in some teeth, patient rushed out of the clinic day of fit to catch a flight home.......



Second picture 15k spent in Budapest on implants and bridges (overtreatment and a bad job), what do you guys think. (there is actually a 6 unit bridge from a wisdom tooth to a canine which is a total no no). 4! implants placed in the upper front which was overtreatment, no grafting so this pink gum was put on, now infection under that tripe. All the crowns are joined, the canine teeth are joined to the implants for some unknown reason. Shocking stuff.




Buyer beware, these were on my camera from the last month and this is what I see on a weekly basis.

So when you talk of the Irish dentist dropping their prices (which they have BTW) do they drop their standards to this level also (and the standards expected by patients and their lawyers), both these cases would have an Irish dentist in court???? Technically neither are a failure, not broken and implants solid however they have totally wrecked these mouths despite this "success". The first lady was told by the "dentist" that she needed to brush more. I can honestly say that I have never seen overtreatment and poor quality on this scale from anywhere else but dental tourists.

flahavaj

fred252 wrote: »

of course comparing apples with oranges is allowed. it is, however, pointless. its not just flight time and cost its the holiday thing too. a 2 day trip to buenas aires just isn't feasible whereas a 2 day trip to budapest is.

i do take your point regarding the advantage of using your own local dentist who will have your details on record and will see you incase of emergencies at the drop of a hat. i would add that i'd be inclined to "buy irish", so to speak, and give my business to irish dentists within reason. if, after subtracting flights and accom, the hungarians are only a few hundred quid cheaper i'd probably go local.

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

fred252

flahavaj wrote: »

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

good point. what type of work would be reasonable to carry out in 2 or 3 days? a couple of root canals and crowns?

MajorMax

flahavaj wrote: »

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

My ex-girlfriend/current wifes treatments took 6 visits over 3 months involving a total of 11 days of treatments. Her treatment involved extractions, root planing, bridgework and crowns. Even with all the flights and accomodation factored in the cost was still 60% cheaper than the quote at home

Big_G

MajorMax wrote: »

The Hungarian dentist we went to gives a 10 year warranty on their work. Conditional on this warranty is a checkup every 6 months with a dentist here in Ireland. Any problems can be detected early and dealt with. I consider this excellent customer service and it is providing revenue to an Irish dentist

It seems a bit strong for you to label an entire countries dental professionals as charlatans and butchers. The dentist we dealt with in Budapest expressed nothing but respect and admiration for her colleagues in Ireland, she trained in Germany and had met several irish dentists on training courses there. You on the other hand have shown nothing but contempt for them. I think that says more about you than it does about them.

If the money is secondery, drop your prices. I guarantee you will see an increase in business. I consider the "An Béal Bocht" of the Irish dentist to be on a par with that of the Irish Taxi industry. You had a stranglehold on the market and you exploited your client base to the last penny. Now that there is some competition, you are bleating on and on. Deal with it, emigrate or retrain, those are your only realistic options.

You talk of butchered patients and shoddy work. Do you personally know and guarantee every dentist in Ireland? My ex-girlfriend/current wife was slapped and verbally abused as a child by her dentist. This led to a genuine fear of dentists. She initially visited a well known chain of dentists here in Ireland. They made certain assurances and promises to her that they couldn't deliver and made her immediate dental issues and expectations worse.

First off, there is no such thing as a guarantee in dentistry, there are too many variables to account for, even if you get a check up every six months. The patient has to take a certain amount of responsibility in the upkeep of the work. I would only give a guarantee if there was a check up done every day. This was a famous statement given by a professor in the dental school where I was a student. Obviously it is cheap enough for them to replace their own work, their profit margin must be big enough for them to cover any possible replacements. Also, they know the vast majority of their patients would never go back to claim the guarantee anyway... Plus it is not providing revenue for the Irish dentist, for a significant proportion of Irish dentists check up fees are a loss leader, which will give you an idea of how much it costs to run a modern dental surgery. It is shifting an ethical obligation onto an unwilling colleague. Shambolic.

I am not labelling an entire country's dental professionals as charlatans and butchers, just the ones who actively seek dental tourists, market themselves as superior to Irish dentists while providing inferior treatments, who provide overcomplicated treatment in too little time, etc, etc. These are all things that patients have experienced abroad in the past. I am sure there are conscientious dentists in Budapest, just like I know there are in the North of Ireland. It's just that there are a certain number who choose to practice at the edge or beyond dental ethics. These are the ones I have a problem with.

How can you compare Irish dentists to taxi drivers? We have invested considerable time, effort and talent into our job. Anybody can be a taxi driver. I think you'll find that we didn't and still don't exploit our patients. In fact, it was the Irish Dental Association that lobbied the government to make public funds available to provide dentistry to the less well off at a considerable cut to private fees for the dentist and free or economical for the patient in the guise of the medical card scheme and the subsidised prsi scheme. So, you don't really know what you are talking about. I have dropped prices by up to 30% in some cases and have seen a drop in revenue due to the loss of the medical card scheme and prsi scheme. I have no problem dropping prices, but there is a point beyond which they cannot be dropped in order for the practice to remain viable, and I don't even own the place.

With regard to emigration, I will be emigrating to Australia in May. I have been offered several jobs at between 1.5 and 2 times my current income.

I don't know and personally guarantee every dentist in Ireland. The point, if you have read the thread, is that you are more likely to have an issue as a dental tourist which may be difficult to resolve. Irish dentists don't do the things that some Hungarian dentists seem to do as stated above. Some of the more heavily marketed dental chains seem to have a few complainants, but that may be because the tend to use inexperienced and foreign dentists to provide treatments.

flahavaj

fred252 wrote: »

good point. what type of work would be reasonable to carry out in 2 or 3 days? a couple of root canals and crowns?

Even thats pushing it tbh.

flahavaj

MajorMax wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend/current wifes treatments took 6 visits over 3 months involving a total of 11 days of treatments. Her treatment involved extractions, root planing, bridgework and crowns. Even with all the flights and accomodation factored in the cost was still 60% cheaper than the quote at home

We will see in 5-10 years time if she got value for money, hopefully she did.

davo10

Patient under treatment at the moment, he went abroad to have crowns on upper front teeth but they persuaded him to have them all crowned and bridged during a 10 day period. The dentist completely mucked up the bite and the canine guidance. In order to fit the crowns into the wrong biting position the porcelain had to be made very thin. The back teeth do not meet so all biting load is on the front teeth, result is catastrophic failure of all crown and bridgework.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Wonder how many people this person told that this was a great job at a fraction of the price before it all failed......????? How many people will they warn now...I know the answer to that one, none cause they are embarrassed.

Big_G BTW WTF....OZ

flahavaj

davo10 wrote: »

Patient under treatment at the moment, he went abroad to have crowns on upper front teeth but they persuaded him to have them all crowned and bridged during a 10 day period. The dentist completely mucked up the bite and the canine guidance. In order to fit the crowns into the wrong biting position the porcelain had to be made very thin. The back teeth do not meet so all biting load is on the front teeth, result is catastrophic failure of all crown and bridgework.

How much will that cost to fix davo? Shocking stuff.

davo10

Consultation, full panel of x rays.
Study models,
face bow registration,
occlusal analysis,
Diagnostic wax up,
3 months of bite raising appliance at new vertical dimension,
Removal of all crown and bridgework and underlying caries,
Root canal treatment on 3 teeth by endodontist.
3 months of temporization with snap crowns made using matrix from wax up, numerous adjustments/reductions/additions to temps to re-establish comfortable and correct ICP, guidance on lateral excursion and vertical height of teeth,
I will begin placing permanent crown/bridgework after Christmas.

When all is said and done it will have taken the best part of a year to repair the treatment done in that 10 days.

To answer your question flahavaj, roughly 5 times what he paid for the initial work.

Big_G

Meadow Millions Revolution wrote: »

Wonder how many people this person told that this was a great job at a fraction of the price before it all failed......????? How many people will they warn now...I know the answer to that one, none cause they are embarrassed.

Big_G BTW WTF....OZ

Off topic, but yeah, off in May. Probably east coast.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

davo10 wrote: »

Consultation, full panel of x rays.
Study models,
face bow registration,
occlusal analysis,
Diagnostic wax up,
3 months of bite raising appliance at new vertical dimension,
Removal of all crown and bridgework and underlying caries,
Root canal treatment on 3 teeth by endodontist.
3 months of temporization with snap crowns made using matrix from wax up, numerous adjustments/reductions/additions to temps to re-establish comfortable and correct ICP, guidance on lateral excursion and vertical height of teeth,
I will begin placing permanent crown/bridgework after Christmas.

When all is said and done it will have taken the best part of a year to repair the treatment done in that 10 days.

To answer your question flahavaj, roughly 5 times what he paid for the initial work.

Sounds lke a job for fitzgeme Remember half those teeth will be bunched from the previous preps and require root canals, XLA, implants ext. Why bother with a splint, they have to come off anyway, test on the temps.

davo10

He was having TMJ pain due to overclosure, Bite raising appliance relieved symptoms immediately and also allowed me to gauge how much of an increase in VD he could tolerate before wax ups and temp matrices made.

georgieporgy

Davo, when did he get that work done? Just curious to see how long it took to collapse so dramatically.

The jobs that don't fall to pieces right away are worse because more damage is sustained in the underlying teeth and jaws first. Some people think it's ok to get such a makeover done at bargain prices because it may work ok for them, and if not they can "get it fixed" later. They don't realise that fixing may not be an option down the road.

davo10

georgieporgy wrote: »

Davo, when did he get that work done? Just curious to see how long it took to collapse so dramatically.

The jobs that don't fall to pieces right away are worse because more damage is sustained in the underlying teeth and jaws first. Some people think it's ok to get such a makeover done at bargain prices because it may work ok for them, and if not they can "get it fixed" later. They don't realise that fixing may not be an option down the road.

May-June '08

flahavaj

Funny how the number of prospective tourists has dropped dramatically in this thread since those pics were posted.....

btkm8unsl0w5r4

flahavaj wrote: »

Funny how the number of prospective tourists has dropped dramatically in this thread since those pics were posted.....

Funny that is it not....a pictures tell a thousand words I suppose and is harder to argue with than a "greedy irish dentist"