dental tourism hungary

carolineL79

Hi, I'm considering getting some cosmetic dentistry done and I'm willing to travel to get it done. There is a dental practice offering relatively reasonable rates in Budapest. Does anyone have any information or advice on this?

Bessa

How many trips to Hungary do you have to make? I think you are nuts to travel for dentistry. I am having implants done next week here in Ireland, and i would not consider having them done anywhere else. If you have any problems you have to catch a plane. Its a lot easier to drive to the door of the practice here.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Advice....

1. use the search function.

2. Would you get a hip transplant in budapest?

3. High speed treatment is never a good idea.

4. Read here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055628532&highlight=Dentist+disaster+Budapest

5. read here http://strongasanoxandnearlyassmart.blogspot.com/2009/01/dental-implants-in-hungary-not-good.html, I espically like this one as the initial smugness is replaced with the realisation of the obvious.

6. Conclusion from Dublin Dental hospital study "In the final analysis, the quality of dental care can only be judged by the long-term maintenance of oral health and the survival of patients’ teeth. Active involvement of the patient and dentist are required for success. There are insufficient data available to know if this is possible using the dental tourism model. Based on accepted standards of care and anecdotal evidence to date, it seems that there is substantial risk to patients travelling abroad for treatment. Patients need access to more information on dental tourism in order to make informed decisions."

8. UK GDP brochure http://www.gdc-uk.org/NR/rdonlyres/9C886B7F-67E1-4D3B-8AF5-7404590EE56C/82885/GoingabroadforyourdentalcareFINAL.pdf

9. My advice for what its worth is dont, while I am sure there are plenty of good jobs done there, the scale of the mess ups I see in my practice and the financial remedial burden of this rushed and often substandard work is huge. The risk if too great especially for non urgent cosmetic work. If you cant afford to to it with someone really good, who you can easily go to for the rest of your life (cause thats the price of good teeth is constant cycles of prevention, maintenance and re-treatment) dont do it at all.

10. Healthcare should not be tendered to the lowest bidder, teeth are non renewable and you will live with any mistakes.

MajorMax

carolineL79 wrote: »

Hi, I'm considering getting some cosmetic dentistry done and I'm willing to travel to get it done. There is a dental practice offering relatively reasonable rates in Budapest. Does anyone have any information or advice on this?

My ex-girlfriend/current wife went to a dental practice in Budapest. As she was terrified of dentists, due to a dentist slapping her as a child, she needed extensive bridgework and several crowns. she went to <snip>(mod I'm not sure if I can name the dentist, so if I can't please delete the name.).
They were very nice although the practice is in the suburbs and we made the mistake of booking a city centre hotel and paid a lot in taxi fares. The dentist website has an offer of free nights in a hotel.
We decided to book our own hotel. The hotel we stayed in was brilliant the Atrium hotel and is very central. We took the opportunity to see as much of Budapest as possible, it's a very beautiful city and the people are very nice. My Wife went to Budapest 5 times in total and the last crown was fitted 2 weeks before we got married last May in Italy. Her smile on the day was worth it.:D
I'm going to go to the same dentist next year as soon as I've finished paying for the wedding. I will never pay Irish dental prices again. The total bill was still very high but by my estimates based on quotes from Irish dentists we visited, we saved 40% even taking travel and accomodation into account.

MajorMax

carolineL79 wrote: »

Hi, I'm considering getting some cosmetic dentistry done and I'm willing to travel to get it done. There is a dental practice offering relatively reasonable rates in Budapest. Does anyone have any information or advice on this?

Hi Caroline
I sent you a PM with the details. Don't be afraid to shop around and do some online research

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Dental work is a life long commitment that will require periodic maintenance and replacement. Be sure you are will to go when thing go wrong. I love holidays but healthcare is important and quality should be your primary concern. In my experiance, the experiance of UK, german, US dentist the quality of high speed low cost dental treatment is dubious at best. This difference in quality may not manifest itself immediatly unless it looks bad, but when it comes to getting it replaced (all dental work no matter how good will need periodic replacement) you wil find that the saving you make on the initial job are obliterated ten fold. Your local irish dentist may be hesitent to get involved in a big job gone bad.

davo10

If you go abroad, a clinic can look great on their website and you can get PM's form patients who are happy with treatment (dissatisfied patients rarely want others to know they make the mistake of having cheap treatment in a foreign country), but when you make a decision based on cost you sometimes get what you pay for, this is the website for a clinic who advertise on "ads by Google" in the top right corner of this forum, have a look at the picture section and see if you would be happy with this treatment no matter how cheap it is.

dory

I went to Budapest this time last year to escape the ridiculous prices of Ireland.

I wouldn't pick someone from the internet, we got someone who had been recommended by two friends. He was very nice and had all the modern equipment you could need. My mother went over to get a lot of fillings done that had fallen out and he told her its because of her bite and she'd need braces for the fillings to stay in. Every Irish dentist she'd ever been to was perfectly happy to keep filling and refilling.

And myself and a friend didn't have work done that we were told in Ireland we needed. I then got another opinion in the UK, and sure enough, the work was not needed.

I'm sure there are horror stories as there are for everything, but I will never be going to an Irish dentist again.

(PM me for Hungary dentist's details if you wish)

Big_G

dory wrote: »

I went to Budapest this time last year to escape the ridiculous prices of Ireland.

I wouldn't pick someone from the internet, we got someone who had been recommended by two friends. He was very nice and had all the modern equipment you could need. My mother went over to get a lot of fillings done that had fallen out and he told her its because of her bite and she'd need braces for the fillings to stay in. Every Irish dentist she'd ever been to was perfectly happy to keep filling and refilling.

Maybe because they thought that she wouldn't be able to afford the extensive treatment required to correct a malocclusion and parafunction (although the evidence is scant and contradictory as to whether braces will help or hinder this situation, maybe someone should tell your brilliant Hungarian dentist). It looks like they were right because she went to a low cost economy to get the 'required' treatment...

dory wrote: »

And myself and a friend didn't have work done that we were told in Ireland we needed. I then got another opinion in the UK, and sure enough, the work was not needed.

In fairness, two dentists will often disagree on treatment plans. You could have gone to a dentist down the road in Ireland and they would have told you something different again.

dory wrote: »

I'm sure there are horror stories as there are for everything, but I will never be going to an Irish dentist again.

(PM me for Hungary dentist's details if you wish)

There are far more horror stories for dental tourism than the other way round....

dory

Big_G wrote: »

Maybe because they thought that she wouldn't be able to afford the extensive treatment required to correct a malocclusion and parafunction (although the evidence is scant and contradictory as to whether braces will help or hinder this situation, maybe someone should tell your brilliant Hungarian dentist). It looks like they were right because she went to a low cost economy to get the 'required' treatment...

That just doesn't make sense. Bill someone for literally thousands for some work, but presume they can't afford braces. And it's a bit of a leap there for you to suggest she can't afford it just because she didn't feel like being ripped off. There's a nice thread in After Hours about an apartment for people like your good self who like to throw money away. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm not getting into this argument because we simply will not agree. You will never convince me that Irish dentists are worth more than dentists in the vast majority of other countries. Agree to disagree. As I said, I have the details for anyone interested.

Big_G

dory wrote: »

That just doesn't make sense. Bill someone for literally thousands for some work, but presume they can't afford braces. And it's a bit of a leap there for you to suggest she can't afford it just because she didn't feel like being ripped off. There's a nice thread in After Hours about an apartment for people like your good self who like to throw money away. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm not getting into this argument because we simply will not agree. You will never convince me that Irish dentists are worth more than dentists in the vast majority of other countries. Agree to disagree. As I said, I have the details for anyone interested.

Dunno what dentists you're going to that do piecemeal filling work for thousands of euro. I don't read After Hours. It hurts my brain to think down to that level.

WRT agreeing to disagree, don't think I will actually. I see patients coming back destroyed from Eastern Europe. I had one ask me to travel to Budapest to confront the so called dentist that butchered him. I politely declined, all the while feeling sorry for the guy. I just encouraged him to tell as many people as possible not to go there for dentistry. Too much of a risk.

Crasp

My mother got some work done in Budapest about 2 years ago, very pleased with the results and the quality.


Hungary isn't a third world country..... The dentists are every bit as qualified as Irish dentists, they just work for less money.

digzy

I'm amazed at this forum. Every week we get the old "i'm off to eastern europe for extensive work, because irish dentists are crap and rip you off" post.
Whats almost as bad is the predictable replies from dentists argueing against. why do ye bother. these people have their minds made up!

I'd like to think I'm reasonably open minded with most things so hows this?

There's good and bad dentists everywhere (subjective as it is to say it though!).
of course dental work is cheaper abroad, how much would any service there compare to here? How much is a meal out, taxis, rent etc.... The fairest comparison is with the uk and norniron. i'd a patient recently return from the north with a crown-she paid the same as what i charge!! and she wouldn't have wasted about 100 on petrol and time going there.Smiles have their prices up on-line, on some things i'm cheaper others i'm dearer. And obviously enough I'm not gonna be too far out of line with my colleagues in the area.

Excellent quality dental work and eastern europe aint mutually exclusive.I think it's unfair of some posters to blankedly dismiss it all. i can perfectly understand if someone is presented with a plan costing 10k here travelling there if they can get one for 6k. However, like a lot of the dentists I can honestly say that there's a much greater % of it that requires retreatment than work done here. I believe much of the problems arise where you've dentists there taking on overcomplicated cases which should be seen by specialists irrespective of country. Personally, i've loads of patients that i'd love to take on as regards complex work but I dont due to complexity involved so I send them off to the likes of fitzgme who to be fair is in the best position to judge.

However i'd warn potential patients that every dentists treatment plan will differ-despite the abuse most of you non-dentists like to fire off there's a fair amount of art involved!!
If i say you need 1 crown for say 650 but pavel will do 6 crowns for 2400 in warsaw are you really getting a bargain-economies of scale etc.....Are 6 crowns needed? if so should you be seeing a prosthodontist imho!


If someone's decided it's worth going abroad best of luck, but dont let waffle about free hotels and holidays sway your decision.

fred252

I wouldn't read posts from dentists Irish or Hungarian on this topic, although those posting here are predominantly Irish. They have a vested interest.

I've lived in Germany and Australia and the dental work I've had done there far exceeds the quality of the work I've had here. Nonetheless I'm sure the standards are improving here but they do seem overpriced.

MajorMax

When I was in the office of our Hungarian dentist for moral support for the procedures that my ex-girlfriend/current wife needed. I had a lot of time to sit there and observe things. Behind the reception desk was the patient folders. They were marked by nationality. There were 27 Irish folders, 15 British & 11 Hungarian folders. The majority of people I met in the waiting room were Irish of all ages and everyone I spoke to was very happy with the work they had received. The premises were clean, and the staff were very professional.
I have no problem with Irish dentists and I don't have an axe to grind, I think this is a very good example of a free market economy. The Irish dentists are pricing themselves out of the market
I can't understand why some young dentist right out of college doesn't set himself up and advertise Irish dentist at european prices.

dory

MajorMax wrote: »

When I was in the office of our Hungarian dentist for moral support for the procedures that my ex-girlfriend/current wife needed. I had a lot of time to sit there and observe things. Behind the reception desk was the patient folders. They were marked by nationality. There were 27 Irish folders, 15 British & 11 Hungarian folders. The majority of people I met in the waiting room were Irish of all ages and everyone I spoke to was very happy with the work they had received. The premises were clean, and the staff were very professional.
I have no problem with Irish dentists and I don't have an axe to grind, I think this is a very good example of a free market economy. The Irish dentists are pricing themselves out of the market
I can't understand why some young dentist right out of college doesn't set himself up and advertise Irish dentist at european prices.

Well said. The funniest is when Irish dentists go on about the horror stories they've heard. Do they never wonder why they never hear good stories?

Hint for the dentists out there - it's because people like me who have had amazing work abroad have sworn never to go to an Irish dentist again.

KindOfIrish

Bessa wrote: »

How many trips to Hungary do you have to make? I think you are nuts to travel for dentistry.

you are nuts to do dentistry in Ireland. For the price of one implant in Ireland , I can travel the world and have 10 implants done.

Bessa

KindOfIrish wrote: »

you are nuts to do dentistry in Ireland. For the price of one implant in Ireland , I can travel the world and have 10 implants done.

I would hate to see the quality of work done if you can do all of the above for the price of one implant as you say.

Big_G

MajorMax wrote: »

When I was in the office of our Hungarian dentist for moral support for the procedures that my ex-girlfriend/current wife needed. I had a lot of time to sit there and observe things. Behind the reception desk was the patient folders. They were marked by nationality. There were 27 Irish folders, 15 British & 11 Hungarian folders. The majority of people I met in the waiting room were Irish of all ages and everyone I spoke to was very happy with the work they had received. The premises were clean, and the staff were very professional.
I have no problem with Irish dentists and I don't have an axe to grind, I think this is a very good example of a free market economy. The Irish dentists are pricing themselves out of the market
I can't understand why some young dentist right out of college doesn't set himself up and advertise Irish dentist at european prices.

Oh my god. :rolleyes: You have no understanding of economics at all. EVERYTHING IS CHEAPER IN HUNGARY. If we did dentistry in Ireland at Hungarian prices, we wouldn't last a week in business. FACT. Not even the big chains are competing. My head is about to explode because of this comment about prices and somebody actually thanked it. Jesus.

Big_G

dory wrote: »

Well said. The funniest is when Irish dentists go on about the horror stories they've heard. Do they never wonder why they never hear good stories?

Hint for the dentists out there - it's because people like me who have had amazing work abroad have sworn never to go to an Irish dentist again.

Not funny at all for the people who were butchered.

Bessa

I have implants in for the last 10 days, and all is well. I had them done here in the south of Ireland and i might add i am pleased about this.

flahavaj

dory wrote: »

Well said. The funniest is when Irish dentists go on about the horror stories they've heard. Do they never wonder why they never hear good stories?

Hint for the dentists out there - it's because people like me who have had amazing work abroad have sworn never to go to an Irish dentist again.

Amazing by what criteria?

It is 5-10 years down the line that we will see the true success/survival of the work that is being done abroad.

marti8

carolineL79 wrote: »

Hi, I'm considering getting some cosmetic dentistry done and I'm willing to travel to get it done. There is a dental practice offering relatively reasonable rates in Budapest. Does anyone have any information or advice on this?

Sorry I don't know about Hungary but I do know about Ukraine. Can get root canal done there for €25.....that's right, €25 for a molar. Or if you want a "posh" place it's €55, lol. They also have FANTASTIC prices for fillings, cleanings, implants, periodontal treatments, orthodntics etc etc. It isn't in Kiev (capitals will always be more expensive), it's in a large city. Read reviews and people (locals) praise the place.

You can fly from Cork to Katowice in Poland (by WIZZ Air) or from Dublin with Ryanair and from Katowice you can either get a eurolines coach for about 15 hours or fly (WIZZ Air) to Kiev - jump in a cab or on a train and a couple of hours later you're in that city) The prices are probably the cheapest in Europe. And cheap prices doesn't mean cheap work - you are simply paying local prices. I've been to Ukraine twice but never for dental work, yet.........

MajorMax

Big_G wrote: »

Oh my god. :rolleyes: You have no understanding of economics at all. EVERYTHING IS CHEAPER IN HUNGARY. If we did dentistry in Ireland at Hungarian prices, we wouldn't last a week in business. FACT. Not even the big chains are competing. My head is about to explode because of this comment about prices and somebody actually thanked it. Jesus.

"A free market economy is an economy based on the power of division of labor in which the prices of goods and services are determined in a free price system set by supply and demand."

I'm sorry, which bit of a free market economy do you not understand? There'll be nothing left of that axe if you keep grinding it

Retrovertigo

I went to Budapest and had treatment last month and could not recommend it highly enough. I was reasonably nervous after receiving the inital consultation considering the massive difference in cost compared to Dublin, however I was absolutely delighted to find the premises were amazing and the treatment itself amazingly easy and pain free. I had one tooth which my Dublin dentist had wanted to pull but they managed to build up and save.

Overall I had 5 fillings, one tooth built up and crowned and a surgical extraction for under 1000euro, which was actually LESS than initally quoted as I hadn't needed some extra work done. Not only that but the hotel was also included along with trips to and from the Airport.

If anyone wants any further information feel free to PM me.

davo10

You would find a huge number of dentists in Ireland who would place a crown, 5 fillings and an extraction for €1k and you would not have to fly, and if there was any problems with the work you would not have to go back to Budapest/see another dentist for "aftercare".

Also lots of people there who would do your job for less then half the cost you are being paid. I wonder if the minimum wage was dropped and your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street and employ a Hungarian for half the cost, would you say "hey I was overpaid anyway and it's a free market", I think we may be about to find out.

day dreamer

I would think you would have gotten the same job done in Ireland for a little more, perhaps 12-1300.

You would have saved the airfare, days off work and been close to the dentist if any problems arise in the future.

Dentists in Ireland live in the real world and every practice is feeling the recession. Prices have come down a lot.

Retrovertigo

I don't agree. Let me be more specific on what I got done.

Surgical extraction of a wisdom tooth.
Porcelain crown fused to metal
Post & core composite
Composite filling x4
Belleglas inlay/ onlay
Calculus removal.

Find me a dentist that will do that for under 1k in Ireland.

Retrovertigo

davo10 wrote: »

I wonder if the minimum wage was dropped and your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street and employ a Hungarian for half the cost, would you say "hey I was overpaid anyway and it's a free market", I think we may be about to find out.

LMAO! Wow, my post angered you so much you decided to go for a personal attack? Definitely someone I'd trust when it comes to giving advise!

Big_G

MajorMax wrote: »

"A free market economy is an economy based on the power of division of labor in which the prices of goods and services are determined in a free price system set by supply and demand."

I'm sorry, which bit of a free market economy do you not understand? There'll be nothing left of that axe if you keep grinding it

First of all, there is no such thing as a truly free market. It is a political construct. Second, the rules of free market economics don't apply perfectly to healthcare because it is a knowledge asymetry. Therefore, supply and demand are artificially imbalanced. There will always be a demand for healthcare treatments because people can't treat themselves. Secondly, and most importantly, if the costs of providing a service, any service, are higher than demand can dictate, that service can no longer be provided. Thirdly, you will not attract the kind of talent into a service industry if the rewards for the sacrifices early in the person's career are not appropriately rewarded later on.

The other point is that when comparing prices in a so-called free market economy, the most effective way to it is to compare like with like. The point that is being made by many in the know is that when comparing dentistry in Ireland with dental tourism (often times very complex treatment provided over short periods of time) you are NOT comparing like with like. You are paying less in Eastern Europe and getting less, as the 6000 dental tourists in Ireland who require remedial treatment at significant expense will attest to.

This is difficult for many people to understand, as Irish dentists do have a vested interest in keeping Irish patients in Ireland. Or so it would seem. 6000 patients multiplied by xEuro for remedial treatment is a good bit of dough for Irish dentists. For me, though, I've trained long and hard and I take a lot of satisfaction in my work. The money is secondary. I think I am lucky in that. I HATE seeing these charlatans in Eastern Europe butchering people and charging them for the privelege. It cheapens my profession, of which I am very proud.

Big_G

Retrovertigo wrote: »

I don't agree. Let me be more specific on what I got done.

Surgical extraction of a wisdom tooth.
Porcelain crown fused to metal
Post & core composite
Composite filling x4
Belleglas inlay/ onlay
Calculus removal.

Find me a dentist that will do that for under 1k in Ireland.

You'll find it hard to find a dentist in Ireland who uses belleglass apart from temporary crowns. You basically got composite fillings, and the dentist called them inlays/onlays because they were made in a lab. That's perfectly fine, but they probably only last slightly longer than ordinary direct composites. Calculus removal sounds fancy but is just a cleaning.

As for your build up crown, which do you think a dentist makes more money on, a crown or an extraction? Do you think he will give you your money back if/when your crown fails and the tooth needs to be extracted anyway? Some teeth shouldn't be saved.

Havelock12

Obviously you can get a lot of cosmetic dentistry work abroad, but does this include invisible braces. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of getting brace work such as Invisalign done abroad?

Retrovertigo

Big_G wrote: »

You'll find it hard to find a dentist in Ireland who uses belleglass apart from temporary crowns. You basically got composite fillings, and the dentist called them inlays/onlays because they were made in a lab. That's perfectly fine, but they probably only last slightly longer than ordinary direct composites. Calculus removal sounds fancy but is just a cleaning.

As for your build up crown, which do you think a dentist makes more money on, a crown or an extraction? Do you think he will give you your money back if/when your crown fails and the tooth needs to be extracted anyway? Some teeth shouldn't be saved.

Cheers for the educated reply.

I know that calculus removal was cleaning but I just copied everything over for the sake of quoting what I had done. The dentist had quoted me composite fillings with the exception of one. If it lasts longer than normal then I'll be happy.

As for the crown, I'm under no illusion that it's going to last forever. As far as I was concerned the tooth was gone and I bought more time for a minimal price. It was a molar so I wouldn't exactly consider it money badly spent, far cheaper than the alternative of an implant.

I'm not looking to bash Irish dentists. I've had extensive and expensive work done over many years and I looked for an alternative. I did my research and knew what consequences and chances before I went, I wasn't a tourist.

I was happy with the results and when it comes down to it, hands down I would recommend people make the effort to do the same if they can.

davo10

Retrovertigo wrote: »

LMAO! Wow, my post angered you so much you decided to go for a personal attack? Definitely someone I'd trust when it comes to giving advise!

Not at all, it's not anger, it's reality. I'm merely making the point that your employer could employ three eastern europeans to do your job for the wage you are being paid. Today's Indo has an article saying that there are discussions to reduce the minimum wage here as it is the second highest in Europe, This may mean that your wage may come down closer to what is being paid in Hungary, if that happens then do not be a hypocrite and complain, you are being paid far more than a worker in Budapest.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-minimum-wage-on-the-table-2419382.html



We are all in the same boat, consumers who shout about lower prices elsewhere should be prepared to accept the lowering of their wages/standard of living if they want those prices here.

That's my point and I wasn't offering advice, when people say to me they are thinking of going abroad I say "Bon Voyage" then I turn to my nurse and say "bring in the next patient please", it does not bother me in the slightest, one of the growth sectors of my clinic is the re-treatment of work done abroad. The patient pays more for re-treatment than if they had the work done with us in the first place due to the fact that there is increased time/work/lab fees required, so I have no problem with this.

Retrovertigo

Ok, didn't know you were in the profession. Makes even worse the fact you rage with statements like,

...your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street

I'd consider that raging. And as for the minimum wage, you're fooling yourself if you think it'll be dropped. It's NOT going to happen considering the unemployment crisis. You need to do more of your own homework rather than quoting articles and scaremongering.

I personally would be terrified to deal with a professional with an attitude like yours. Good look with your "growth sectors", not everyone who goes abroad comes back in misery from a hatchet job.

Mr Cawley

6. Conclusion from Dublin Dental hospital study "In the final analysis, the quality of dental care can only be judged by the long-term maintenance of oral health and the survival of patients’ teeth. Active involvement of the patient and dentist are required for success. There are insufficient data available to know if this is possible using the dental tourism model. Based on accepted standards of care and anecdotal evidence to date, it seems that there is substantial risk to patients travelling abroad for treatment. Patients need access to more information on dental tourism in order to make informed decisions."

Incompetent money hungry dentists,fact! take with pinch of salt.

davo10

Retrovertigo wrote: »

Ok, didn't know you were in the profession. Makes even worse the fact you rage with statements like,

...your employer decided to kick your overpaid ass out on the street

I'd consider that raging. And as for the minimum wage, you're fooling yourself if you think it'll be dropped. It's NOT going to happen considering the unemployment crisis. You need to do more of your own homework rather than quoting articles and scaremongering.

I personally would be terrified to deal with a professional with an attitude like yours. Good look with your "growth sectors", not everyone who goes abroad comes back in misery from a hatchet job.

C'mon, I referred to an article in the Sunday Indo, and the call for lower minimum wage is widespread among business owners and economists so no homework needed there. And I have no intention of scaremongering, I am saying that I do quite well from doing reparative work. My "attitude" is one of bemusement, I read post after post on different forums about the cost of goods and services here and how the consumer is paying to much but no one is willing to take a paycut so that the services would become less expensive, labour is the biggest cost of any business.

Incidently, a reduction in wages may increase competitativeness and consequently market share and employment, so again do not winge if you are effected.

Thank you for your good wishes, I have no need to see the good jobs done (which many of them are), hatchet jobs done abroad are good for business.

Retrovertigo

I don't believe you're a dentist and I reckon you're just trolling.

Stick to the "Indo", as your source of information and instead of accusing people of whinging and being overpaid you should stick to derailing threads elsewhere with your keyboard warrior antics.

On topic, if anyone has read this thread with the interest of going abroad, do your homework and then go. And don't bother posting here if it goes well as you'll be trolled by imaginary dentists with the maturity of a teenage girl.

(With the exception of Big_G), what you said actually made sense and I appreciate it.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Price X (Quality = longevity) = Value
1000 euro crown last 15 years and is replaced with another crowns = 66 euro per year over 15 years.
300 euro crown last 7 years and is replaced with an implant (1500 euro) = 120 euro per year over 15 years.
Value will only become apparent in the long term, I want people who had work done in 2000 or 2002 to post and tell us how it is holding up, and how much the repair work cost them in time, travel and pain.

I would point out that there are countries where the work will be a fraction of the cost of say Budapest, like Mexico or Argentina why not consider going there, the weather is better for the holiday. Several of the posters on hear have told us that the Irish dental tourist in eastern Europe is getting ripped off compared to what locals are charged for the same work, the extra distance is irrelevant as you have to get on a plane anyway, and you know about as much about dentistry in Mexico as anywhere other than Ireland (websites / tourism agencies will reassure you its high quality low cost etc)...so why not.? Anyone's mum been to Mexico for implants?

fred252

Meadow Millions Revolution wrote: »

Price X (Quality = longevity) = Value
1000 euro crown last 15 years and is replaced with another crowns = 66 euro per year over 15 years.
300 euro crown last 7 years and is replaced with an implant (1500 euro) = 120 euro per year over 15 years.
Value will only become apparent in the long term, I want people who had work done in 2000 or 2002 to post and tell us how it is holding up, and how much the repair work cost them in time, travel and pain.

I would point out that there are countries where the work will be a fraction of the cost of say Budapest, like Mexico or Argentina why not consider going there, the weather is better for the holiday. Several of the posters on hear have told us that the Irish dental tourist in eastern Europe is getting ripped off compared to what locals are charged for the same work, the extra distance is irrelevant as you have to get on a plane anyway, and you know about as much about dentistry in Mexico as anywhere other than Ireland (websites / tourism agencies will reassure you its high quality low cost etc)...so why not.? Anyone's mum been to Mexico for implants?

you're comparing apples with oranges. flying to hungary vs. argentina is a fraction of the cost. not to mention a fraction of the flight time which is a factor for those with few holidays to spare.

you've got one thing right: i'd take buenas aires over budapest anyday for a holiday.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

fred252 wrote: »

you're comparing apples with oranges. flying to hungary vs. argentina is a fraction of the cost. not to mention a fraction of the flight time which is a factor for those with few holidays to spare.

you've got one thing right: i'd take buenas aires over budapest anyday for a holiday.

Comparing apples with oranges is allowed on dental tourism threads infact you have to do that to convince yourself its good value.

Its only flight time and the cost is more than made up for in the saving you will make on your dental work. If a front tooth falls out without warning or you get a toothache your dentist might as well be on the moon if you have got to book a flight (no cheap flights when your in a hurry), hotel etc to see them. Any argument you make for Budapest versus Argentina goes the same (and is less ludicrous) for Ireland versus Budapest. Whats sauce for the goose......

fred252

Meadow Millions Revolution wrote: »

Comparing apples with oranges is allowed on dental tourism threads infact you have to do that to convince yourself its good value.

Its only flight time and the cost is more than made up for in the saving you will make on your dental work. If a front tooth falls out without warning or you get a toothache your dentist might as well be on the moon if you have got to book a flight (no cheap flights when your in a hurry), hotel etc to see them. Any argument you make for Budapest versus Argentina goes the same (and is less ludicrous) for Ireland versus Budapest. Whats sauce for the goose......

of course comparing apples with oranges is allowed. it is, however, pointless. its not just flight time and cost its the holiday thing too. a 2 day trip to buenas aires just isn't feasible whereas a 2 day trip to budapest is.

i do take your point regarding the advantage of using your own local dentist who will have your details on record and will see you incase of emergencies at the drop of a hat. i would add that i'd be inclined to "buy irish", so to speak, and give my business to irish dentists within reason. if, after subtracting flights and accom, the hungarians are only a few hundred quid cheaper i'd probably go local.

MajorMax

Big_G wrote: »

First of all, there is no such thing as a truly free market. It is a political construct. Second, the rules of free market economics don't apply perfectly to healthcare because it is a knowledge asymetry. Therefore, supply and demand are artificially imbalanced. There will always be a demand for healthcare treatments because people can't treat themselves. Secondly, and most importantly, if the costs of providing a service, any service, are higher than demand can dictate, that service can no longer be provided. Thirdly, you will not attract the kind of talent into a service industry if the rewards for the sacrifices early in the person's career are not appropriately rewarded later on.

The other point is that when comparing prices in a so-called free market economy, the most effective way to it is to compare like with like. The point that is being made by many in the know is that when comparing dentistry in Ireland with dental tourism (often times very complex treatment provided over short periods of time) you are NOT comparing like with like. You are paying less in Eastern Europe and getting less, as the 6000 dental tourists in Ireland who require remedial treatment at significant expense will attest to.

This is difficult for many people to understand, as Irish dentists do have a vested interest in keeping Irish patients in Ireland. Or so it would seem. 6000 patients multiplied by xEuro for remedial treatment is a good bit of dough for Irish dentists. For me, though, I've trained long and hard and I take a lot of satisfaction in my work. The money is secondary. I think I am lucky in that. I HATE seeing these charlatans in Eastern Europe butchering people and charging them for the privelege. It cheapens my profession, of which I am very proud.

The Hungarian dentist we went to gives a 10 year warranty on their work. Conditional on this warranty is a checkup every 6 months with a dentist here in Ireland. Any problems can be detected early and dealt with. I consider this excellent customer service and it is providing revenue to an Irish dentist

It seems a bit strong for you to label an entire countries dental professionals as charlatans and butchers. The dentist we dealt with in Budapest expressed nothing but respect and admiration for her colleagues in Ireland, she trained in Germany and had met several irish dentists on training courses there. You on the other hand have shown nothing but contempt for them. I think that says more about you than it does about them.

If the money is secondery, drop your prices. I guarantee you will see an increase in business. I consider the "An Béal Bocht" of the Irish dentist to be on a par with that of the Irish Taxi industry. You had a stranglehold on the market and you exploited your client base to the last penny. Now that there is some competition, you are bleating on and on. Deal with it, emigrate or retrain, those are your only realistic options.

You talk of butchered patients and shoddy work. Do you personally know and guarantee every dentist in Ireland? My ex-girlfriend/current wife was slapped and verbally abused as a child by her dentist. This led to a genuine fear of dentists. She initially visited a well known chain of dentists here in Ireland. They made certain assurances and promises to her that they couldn't deliver and made her immediate dental issues and expectations worse.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Here an apple to compare. This lady spent 6k (her husbands redundancy) on these teeth in Budapest half the price of Ireland and half the job IMHO...these also have a guarantee of 5 years although I would want them in my mouth for that long. What do you guys think. She may have had bad teeth before and gaps but now she has badly fitting, ugly and expensive bridges that will fail in the most hideous and expensive fashion. Re treatment for her is not an option. No money left, no replacement of lower teeth. Nerve problems in some teeth, patient rushed out of the clinic day of fit to catch a flight home.......



Second picture 15k spent in Budapest on implants and bridges (overtreatment and a bad job), what do you guys think. (there is actually a 6 unit bridge from a wisdom tooth to a canine which is a total no no). 4! implants placed in the upper front which was overtreatment, no grafting so this pink gum was put on, now infection under that tripe. All the crowns are joined, the canine teeth are joined to the implants for some unknown reason. Shocking stuff.




Buyer beware, these were on my camera from the last month and this is what I see on a weekly basis.

So when you talk of the Irish dentist dropping their prices (which they have BTW) do they drop their standards to this level also (and the standards expected by patients and their lawyers), both these cases would have an Irish dentist in court???? Technically neither are a failure, not broken and implants solid however they have totally wrecked these mouths despite this "success". The first lady was told by the "dentist" that she needed to brush more. I can honestly say that I have never seen overtreatment and poor quality on this scale from anywhere else but dental tourists.

flahavaj

fred252 wrote: »

of course comparing apples with oranges is allowed. it is, however, pointless. its not just flight time and cost its the holiday thing too. a 2 day trip to buenas aires just isn't feasible whereas a 2 day trip to budapest is.

i do take your point regarding the advantage of using your own local dentist who will have your details on record and will see you incase of emergencies at the drop of a hat. i would add that i'd be inclined to "buy irish", so to speak, and give my business to irish dentists within reason. if, after subtracting flights and accom, the hungarians are only a few hundred quid cheaper i'd probably go local.

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

fred252

flahavaj wrote: »

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

good point. what type of work would be reasonable to carry out in 2 or 3 days? a couple of root canals and crowns?

MajorMax

flahavaj wrote: »

My biggest issue with all of this would be that the kind of ambitious treatment plans I've seen carried out abroad should never be attempted in two days (or the typical one week period you hear of), regardless of the price or ability of the dentist in question. You could be the best qualified, most widely experienced dentist in the world, but some of the huge full mouth reconstructions being done simply can't be done properly in such a short space of time. Whether 2,000 euro is being charged, or 20,000 is pretty irrelevant, good dentistry can't be hurried like that, its simply not going to work in the long term. A good prosthodontist would be doing well to treatment plan bridgework like we see in fitzgeme's photos (and conclude its a bad bad idea), not to mind actually carrying it out in a short space of time. Madness.

My ex-girlfriend/current wifes treatments took 6 visits over 3 months involving a total of 11 days of treatments. Her treatment involved extractions, root planing, bridgework and crowns. Even with all the flights and accomodation factored in the cost was still 60% cheaper than the quote at home

Big_G

MajorMax wrote: »

The Hungarian dentist we went to gives a 10 year warranty on their work. Conditional on this warranty is a checkup every 6 months with a dentist here in Ireland. Any problems can be detected early and dealt with. I consider this excellent customer service and it is providing revenue to an Irish dentist

It seems a bit strong for you to label an entire countries dental professionals as charlatans and butchers. The dentist we dealt with in Budapest expressed nothing but respect and admiration for her colleagues in Ireland, she trained in Germany and had met several irish dentists on training courses there. You on the other hand have shown nothing but contempt for them. I think that says more about you than it does about them.

If the money is secondery, drop your prices. I guarantee you will see an increase in business. I consider the "An Béal Bocht" of the Irish dentist to be on a par with that of the Irish Taxi industry. You had a stranglehold on the market and you exploited your client base to the last penny. Now that there is some competition, you are bleating on and on. Deal with it, emigrate or retrain, those are your only realistic options.

You talk of butchered patients and shoddy work. Do you personally know and guarantee every dentist in Ireland? My ex-girlfriend/current wife was slapped and verbally abused as a child by her dentist. This led to a genuine fear of dentists. She initially visited a well known chain of dentists here in Ireland. They made certain assurances and promises to her that they couldn't deliver and made her immediate dental issues and expectations worse.

First off, there is no such thing as a guarantee in dentistry, there are too many variables to account for, even if you get a check up every six months. The patient has to take a certain amount of responsibility in the upkeep of the work. I would only give a guarantee if there was a check up done every day. This was a famous statement given by a professor in the dental school where I was a student. Obviously it is cheap enough for them to replace their own work, their profit margin must be big enough for them to cover any possible replacements. Also, they know the vast majority of their patients would never go back to claim the guarantee anyway... Plus it is not providing revenue for the Irish dentist, for a significant proportion of Irish dentists check up fees are a loss leader, which will give you an idea of how much it costs to run a modern dental surgery. It is shifting an ethical obligation onto an unwilling colleague. Shambolic.

I am not labelling an entire country's dental professionals as charlatans and butchers, just the ones who actively seek dental tourists, market themselves as superior to Irish dentists while providing inferior treatments, who provide overcomplicated treatment in too little time, etc, etc. These are all things that patients have experienced abroad in the past. I am sure there are conscientious dentists in Budapest, just like I know there are in the North of Ireland. It's just that there are a certain number who choose to practice at the edge or beyond dental ethics. These are the ones I have a problem with.

How can you compare Irish dentists to taxi drivers? We have invested considerable time, effort and talent into our job. Anybody can be a taxi driver. I think you'll find that we didn't and still don't exploit our patients. In fact, it was the Irish Dental Association that lobbied the government to make public funds available to provide dentistry to the less well off at a considerable cut to private fees for the dentist and free or economical for the patient in the guise of the medical card scheme and the subsidised prsi scheme. So, you don't really know what you are talking about. I have dropped prices by up to 30% in some cases and have seen a drop in revenue due to the loss of the medical card scheme and prsi scheme. I have no problem dropping prices, but there is a point beyond which they cannot be dropped in order for the practice to remain viable, and I don't even own the place.

With regard to emigration, I will be emigrating to Australia in May. I have been offered several jobs at between 1.5 and 2 times my current income.

I don't know and personally guarantee every dentist in Ireland. The point, if you have read the thread, is that you are more likely to have an issue as a dental tourist which may be difficult to resolve. Irish dentists don't do the things that some Hungarian dentists seem to do as stated above. Some of the more heavily marketed dental chains seem to have a few complainants, but that may be because the tend to use inexperienced and foreign dentists to provide treatments.

flahavaj

fred252 wrote: »

good point. what type of work would be reasonable to carry out in 2 or 3 days? a couple of root canals and crowns?

Even thats pushing it tbh.

flahavaj

MajorMax wrote: »

My ex-girlfriend/current wifes treatments took 6 visits over 3 months involving a total of 11 days of treatments. Her treatment involved extractions, root planing, bridgework and crowns. Even with all the flights and accomodation factored in the cost was still 60% cheaper than the quote at home

We will see in 5-10 years time if she got value for money, hopefully she did.

davo10

Patient under treatment at the moment, he went abroad to have crowns on upper front teeth but they persuaded him to have them all crowned and bridged during a 10 day period. The dentist completely mucked up the bite and the canine guidance. In order to fit the crowns into the wrong biting position the porcelain had to be made very thin. The back teeth do not meet so all biting load is on the front teeth, result is catastrophic failure of all crown and bridgework.