The case against Metro North - is there one?

monument · 07-11-2010 8:21pm

strathspey wrote: »

The Scots are building a tram from Edinburgh Airport to the city centre. Why Can't the Luas be extended out to the airport instead. It would save a fortune.

It could be done, but the displacement of traffic and the small bit of distruction needed would cause uproar which would make the current media outcry against Metro North look like a tear drop falling into the Irish Sea.

For all those who say bus lanes are already there -- they are disjointed as hell, with large sections missing in the most congested areas.

Related to this, I'm in the process of mapping the current bus lanes on the route -- showing where they are, where sections large and small are missing and showing were there's problems (not wide enough for bus to pass a cyclists so bus kept at cyclist's speed what every that is etc). Will post in a new thread when I get around it finishing it.

runway16 · 07-11-2010 9:51pm

strathspey wrote: »

The Scots are building a tram from Edinburgh Airport to the city centre. Why Can't the Luas be extended out to the airport instead. It would save a fortune.

How many times does this need to be repeated??

Metro North isnt just an airport rail link. The airport is only one stop out of 17.

Transportuser09 · 07-11-2010 10:30pm

All though it could be done the existing trams used on the Luas probably wouldn't be that suitable considering the lack of luggage space, etc... Presumably the metro rolling stock would be slightly larger than the Luas stock and have this taken into account during the design process. However, as the Scots have shown a tram can still be used, but bigger rolling stock seems more suited.

runway16 · 07-11-2010 11:09pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

All though it could be done the existing trams used on the Luas probably wouldn't be that suitable considering the lack of luggage space, etc... Presumably the metro rolling stock would be slightly larger than the Luas stock and have this taken into account during the design process. However, as the Scots have shown a tram can still be used, but bigger rolling stock seems more suited.

Its also been done with Trams in Porto and Newcastle. Quite honestly I couldnt give a damn how its done, once it is done and is fast enough. The later point probably rules out an on-street solution though.

But the point still stands - MN isnt an airport rail link. Its a commuter corridor with the airport on its route.

Telchak · 07-11-2010 11:16pm

runway16 wrote: »

Its also been done with Trams in Porto...

Porto is closer to the Metro North than Luas isn't it? In fact, the Porto Metro has been used in many pictures for Metro North that are intended to show what it will look like (:

runway16 · 08-11-2010 12:09am

Telchak wrote: »

Porto is closer to the Metro North than Luas isn't it? In fact, the Porto Metro has been used in many pictures for Metro North that are intended to show what it will look like (:

In that case, I stand corrected. I've not been to Porto myself, and had always heard Porto's system referred to as a tram.

Brian CivilEng · 08-11-2010 1:11am

senordingdong wrote: »

In fairness though, how long would that take you?

You are right, probably still too long, forget the infrastructure they should just move the Bull and Castle to Raheny for my benefit

I believe that if both Metro North and the DART Underground are built it will lead to a whole change on how people view journeys in the city. The usual way of thinking is that you use public transport as a teen/student, it takes too long / is unreliable and you yearn for your first car. Once you have the car you completely forget about the pt. If the public transport is reliable people will not rush into buying a car. There's nothing wrong with having or owning a car, it's being forced to use I that I have a problem with. I try to use the DART or bus as much as possible, I hate when driving is the only option. Means I cant pop into the Bull and Castle.

Transportuser09 · 08-11-2010 6:14pm

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I believe that if both Metro North and the DART Underground are built it will lead to a whole change on how people view journeys in the city. The usual way of thinking is that you use public transport as a teen/student, it takes too long / is unreliable and you yearn for your first car. Once you have the car you completely forget about the pt. If the public transport is reliable people will not rush into buying a car.

Good point. Obviously it will only work in the areas served by the routes but it's a good start. I maintain we will always need bus routes, but if MN helps improve commuter flows from the north end of the city then I'm all for it.

markpb · 08-11-2010 6:17pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Good point. Obviously it will only work in the areas served by the routes but it's a good start.

If both projects were built, an awful lot of Dublin would be served by rail. Terenure, etc are the big remaining gap. There should be no reason for DB to continue running arterial bus routes anywhere near the train lines so they could be redeployed to serve under-served areas and as feeder buses.

Transportuser09 · 08-11-2010 6:22pm

markpb wrote: »

If both projects were built, an awful lot of Dublin would be served by rail. Terenure, etc are the big remaining gap. There should be no reason for DB to continue running arterial bus routes anywhere near the train lines so they could be redeployed to serve under-served areas and as feeder buses.

Indeed there should be no need to run bus routes serving the same route as the new rail lines. However, I would still advocate having them run to/from areas a good distance between rail lines and the city centre. People prefer to have a direct route in to work rather than have to get a bus to one location and change to a train to continue their journey. However I completely agree it would be a waste to have a bus serving all the metro locations into the city centre. As you said the resources used to run such a route would be better deployed elsewhere.

senordingdong · 09-11-2010 9:46am

abitofacomedian wrote: »

You are right, probably still too long, forget the infrastructure they should just move the Bull and Castle to Raheny for my benefit

I believe that if both Metro North and the DART Underground are built it will lead to a whole change on how people view journeys in the city. The usual way of thinking is that you use public transport as a teen/student, it takes too long / is unreliable and you yearn for your first car. Once you have the car you completely forget about the pt. If the public transport is reliable people will not rush into buying a car. There's nothing wrong with having or owning a car, it's being forced to use I that I have a problem with. I try to use the DART or bus as much as possible, I hate when driving is the only option. Means I cant pop into the Bull and Castle.

Exactly.
I had to get from Raheny to Broombridge one day and the route was to get the Dart to Connoly and change over to the Loongford train to get to Broombridge.
I was waiting 15 minutes on the Dart, then it took about 20mins to get to Connoly (going at a snails pace and then taking an overly long time changing drivers at Clontarf).
Then I had to wait about 30mins for the Longford train (which granted, was quite quick once it arrived)
So the whole thing took one & a half/two hours, which is far too long imo.

My point here is that we already have a rail network, and I.E. and the Dept. of Transport will swear blind that it's great, does what it says on the tin and is as good as any other major cities rail network.

I have a feeling that our new rail network will be just the same, except underground.

Also, to ad to your point about the cars...since cars, motor tax, insurance & petrol are so damned expensive in this country, I think it's silly that the govt. tries to tell people to leave their cars at home and use a sub-standard PT system. After paying so much for a car and its running costs, I would trying to get the most out of it.

schemingbohemia · 09-11-2010 5:33pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Exactly.
I had to get from Raheny to Broombridge one day and the route was to get the Dart to Connoly and change over to the Loongford train to get to Broombridge.
I was waiting 15 minutes on the Dart, then it took about 20mins to get to Connoly (going at a snails pace and then taking an overly long time changing drivers at Clontarf).
Then I had to wait about 30mins for the Longford train (which granted, was quite quick once it arrived)
So the whole thing took one & a half/two hours, which is far too long imo.

Did you check the timetable before you left your home?

From the Irish Rail website it would seem you were very unlucky as most journeys during the day should take between 30 and 50 minutes for this trip.

whydoibother? · 09-11-2010 5:39pm

We can't afford it at the moment. When we're teetering so close to the edge and talking about 6bn cuts this year, to propose spending 2bn on something we don't need urgently (and I know people will argue different defns. of need) is silly. Lets pump that money into reducing the deficit ideally, or at least stimulating growth through some kind of sensible initiative and then a few years down the line when things are back on track, by all means... I love trains.

markpb · 09-11-2010 5:44pm

whydoibother? wrote: »

We can't afford it at the moment. When we're teetering so close to the edge and talking about 6bn cuts this year, to propose spending 2bn on something we don't need urgently (and I know people will argue different defns. of need) is silly.

We won't be paying the full construction price of the Metro right now. We won't even be paying it next year or in 2012. We pay a relatively small amount for some preparation work and then the winning consortia will pay the construction price.

In 5-7 years when it's ready for operation, we start paying them back but over 25 years so we'll pay a relatively small amount each year.

Cancelling this metro will save us about 160m but not the 5bn or 2bn that most people believe. It won't have any effect on our current terrible situation.

senordingdong · 10-11-2010 9:07am

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Did you check the timetable before you left your home?

From the Irish Rail website it would seem you were very unlucky as most journeys during the day should take between 30 and 50 minutes for this trip.

Sure did, but their timetables are never accurate.

L1011 · 10-11-2010 9:20am

whydoibother? wrote: »

We can't afford it at the moment.

We won't be paying for it 'at the moment' either.

LeinsterDub · 10-11-2010 12:14pm

whydoibother? wrote: »

Lets pump that money into reducing the deficit ideally, or at least stimulating growth through some kind of sensible initiative and then a few years down the line when things are back on track, by all means... I love trains.

How about a project with a cost benefit of 2:1 , will create 4,000 construction jobs and thousand of other construction jobs indirectly. Would that qualify as stimulating growth?

dynamick · 12-11-2010 10:49am

They aren't going to cancel the project in the budget when the saving would be just 75m for 2011 out of a planned 5,500m capital budget. Even if they lop another 1bn off the capital budget there's hardly anything to be saved by killing the project.

senordingdong · 12-11-2010 11:30am

Well if Cowen thinks it's a good idea then it must be a disaster waiting to happen.

runway16 · 13-11-2010 12:06pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Well if Cowen thinks it's a good idea then it must be a disaster waiting to happen.

Well, clearly thats exactly the sort of rationale and logical thinking we should be applying to developing our transport system..:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

zootroid · 13-11-2010 12:22pm

senordingdong wrote: »

Well if Cowen thinks it's a good idea then it must be a disaster waiting to happen.

Brilliant reasoning :rolleyes:

monument · 13-11-2010 12:36pm

Beyond Cowen and the comments from Ruairí Quinn*, there's other signs that Metro North is far from off the agenda...

Nov 1:

Also at the conference, Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey said Dublin’s Metro North project remains in the Government’s capital programme. “I am confident that it is in the programme. I have to be careful, it is a budgetary matter at the end of the day.” - Irish Times

Nov 13

“There is an absolute necessity for a project like Metro North. I don’t see how a construction job like Metro North with 4,000 jobs directly and 3,000 indirectly are any different to ones that will be provided by roads,” [said Dempsey] -- Irish Times and Irish Indo

* yes, Quinn is in opposition, but it's harder to proceed without support from outside the government

lods · 13-11-2010 2:57pm

Enclosed please find 2 files to help you realise the disaster cost to the nation if Metro North goes ahead .Basically the Fianna Fail Government never had the money to build MetroNorth railproject.The whole project is dependent on Government backed property speculation using compulsory purchase orders to buy and sell property to developers.This is evident in the report comissioned by the RPA see the confidential file Dublin_Metro_Project_OBC_Nov_2002_Part_II_Appendices.pdf (application/pdf) 6,532K.Notice all the blanked out figures and numbers again evidence of the manipulation and hiding of important financial information by this Fianna fail government who have ruined the nation's finances.This report shows the Metro North project for what it is, a property speculative developer driven project involving Fianna Fail, ,developers , local authorities, and banks all acting out the property bubble boom that has distroyed this Nation's future.
The recent Cherrywood"Ghost line" rail luas line project ( with not one parking site for users) is owed hundreds of millions of Euros by bankrupt and Namaized developers.
Enclosed also is the Metro North Book of references,see file MetroNorth_Books of Reference.zip (application/zip) 3,415K that gives all the property that has to be CPO'd in the Metro North project even before a sod is turned.This Government cannot afford Metro North, it cannot afford the Dart UnderGround rail line from Heuston to the Point, this Government has broken the Country by their actions.The Government will not have money to pay themselves next year, that is how bad the situation is.
Right now,The Goverment cannot even borrow money , please consider and act and do the right thing for once ....... cancel and finish and end Metro North and the CIE dart Underground project, so that Ireland will save at least 10 billion euros,
yours sincerely

Damian O'Regan
http://cid-8ad9de768f0cbeb5.office.live.com/browse.aspx/metro%20north

Zebra3 · 13-11-2010 4:13pm

The recent Cherrywood"Ghost line" rail luas line project ( with not one parking site for users) is owed hundreds of millions of Euros by bankrupt and Namaized developers.

Didn't the extension cost about €300M with half coming from developer levies and therefore it is impossible that there are "hundreds of millions of euros" owed?

it cannot afford the Dart UnderGround rail line from Heuston to the Point,

To the Point? Really? :rolleyes:

Damian O'Regan

Get your facts right you moron. :mad:

DWCommuter · 13-11-2010 5:06pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Didn't the extension cost about €300M with half coming from developer levies and therefore it is impossible that there are "hundreds of millions of euros" owed?

Thats not necessarily true either. Perhaps a question about it should be asked in Dail Eireann or an FOI request. It would indeed be interesting to know if the developer money was ever paid, Citywest extension included.

donvito99 · 13-11-2010 7:41pm

lods wrote: »

Enclosed please find 2 files to help you realise the disaster cost to the nation if Metro North goes ahead .Basically the Fianna Fail Government never had the money to build MetroNorth railproject.The whole project is dependent on Government backed property speculation using compulsory purchase orders to buy and sell property to developers.This is evident in the report comissioned by the RPA see the confidential file Dublin_Metro_Project_OBC_Nov_2002_Part_II_Appendices.pdf (application/pdf) 6,532K.Notice all the blanked out figures and numbers again evidence of the manipulation and hiding of important financial information by this Fianna fail government who have ruined the nation's finances.This report shows the Metro North project for what it is, a property speculative developer driven project involving Fianna Fail, ,developers , local authorities, and banks all acting out the property bubble boom that has distroyed this Nation's future.
The recent Cherrywood"Ghost line" rail luas line project ( with not one parking site for users) is owed hundreds of millions of Euros by bankrupt and Namaized developers.
Enclosed also is the Metro North Book of references,see file MetroNorth_Books of Reference.zip (application/zip) 3,415K that gives all the property that has to be CPO'd in the Metro North project even before a sod is turned.This Government cannot afford Metro North, it cannot afford the Dart UnderGround rail line from Heuston to the Point, this Government has broken the Country by their actions.The Government will not have money to pay themselves next year, that is how bad the situation is.
Right now,The Goverment cannot even borrow money , please consider and act and do the right thing for once ....... cancel and finish and end Metro North and the CIE dart Underground project, so that Ireland will save at least 10 billion euros,
yours sincerely

Damian O'Regan
http://cid-8ad9de768f0cbeb5.office.live.com/browse.aspx/metro%20north

I refuse to read this on the grounds that it is impossible to read.

Please give a damn about your posts, 'cause I certainly won't.

lods · 14-11-2010 8:55am

donvito99 wrote: »

I refuse to read this on the grounds that it is impossible to read.

Please give a damn about your posts, 'cause I certainly won't.

I posted it , the way it was written ,take it up with the author:rolleyes:
. As you can see by the title , it's an e mail going around .

dynamick · 15-11-2010 1:34am

lods wrote: »

...The recent Cherrywood"Ghost line" rail luas line project ( with not one parking site for users) is owed hundreds of millions of Euros by bankrupt and Namaized developers......Damian O'Regan

Funny that the same Damian took the trouble to write to the Irish Times in August to tell them that

Damo wrote:

The recent extension to the Luas light rail line at Cherrywood (Home News, May 6th) is very good value for money

DWCommuter doubts the cost of the Cherrywood extension...

DWCommuter wrote: »

Thats not necessarily true either. Perhaps a question about it should be asked in Dail Eireann or an FOI request. It would indeed be interesting to know if the developer money was ever paid, Citywest extension included.

The government say it came in at 293m and that the budget was 324m. Link

Developer contributions were set at about 100K per acre for residential land and more than twice that for commercial land. The levies can be collected for the next 18 years for any development that takes place in a 1300 acre region of undeveloped land around the luas line from 2003 onwards.

To get back on topic, similar schemes have been collecting money from developers along the proposed route of metro north since last year and will continue to so do until 2039. They aim is to recoup 800m in development levies during that time.

DWCommuter · 16-11-2010 1:27am

dynamick wrote: »

Funny that the same Damian took the trouble to write to the Irish Times in August to tell them that

DWCommuter doubts the cost of the Cherrywood extension...
The government say it came in at 293m and that the budget was 324m. Link

Developer contributions were set at about 100K per acre for residential land and more than twice that for commercial land. The levies can be collected for the next 18 years for any development that takes place in a 1300 acre region of undeveloped land around the luas line from 2003 onwards.

To get back on topic, similar schemes have been collecting money from developers along the proposed route of metro north since last year and will continue to so do until 2039. They aim is to recoup 800m in development levies during that time.

I didn't doubt the cost of it. I merely pointed out that it would be interesting to know how much in levies was actually collected.

dynamick · 16-11-2010 2:46am

Fair enough.

38.6m invoiced and 22.4m collected. 18 years of scheme to run and 127m to collect Some of the 16m owing will probably be bad debts. The levy rate inflates by 5% per year

Year Amount Invoiced* Amount Received
2003      &#8364;49,500.00     &#8364;57,405.00
2004   &#8364;1,003,799.65    &#8364;334,176.53
2005  &#8364;12,844,561.11  &#8364;1,370,178.61
2006  &#8364;12,813,573.57 &#8364;10,271,275.90
2007   &#8364;3,462,383.12  &#8364;4,182,373.72
2008   &#8364;4,618,876.11  &#8364;3,036,467.02
2009   &#8364;2,604,429.74  &#8364;2,823,252.06
2010   &#8364;1,157,309.62    &#8364;371,114.78
[B]Total &#8364;38,554,432.92 &#8364;22,446,243.62[/B]

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/Meetings/2010/CountyCouncil/Oct10.htm

The case against Metro North - is there one?

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