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"no, I'm actually an athiest"

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    #2072
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Osgoodisgood wrote: »
    Gee thanks Jakkass. Does that come with an optional pat on the head? My point, as you well know, was that giving airtime to stone age thinking lends it a credibility that it doesn't deserve.

    This is awful reasoning.
    1) The Bible is a bronze age document :pac:
    2) We take inspiration from many sources older than this such as Aristotle & Plato, hugely influential in philosophy & European culture.
    3) Age does not dictate merit.
    4) Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.
    Osgoodisgood wrote: »
    See my comment above. Obviously I mentioned Dawkins' name as an example of someone who draws a distinction between debates worth having and those that have no upside for him.

    Anyone does this. I do this, you do this. We determine merit in terms of responding.


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    #2073
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Jakkass wrote: »
    But, to say the least, I couldn't give a fiddlesticks who Dawkins' debates with or not. He's no authority on discourse.
    He is somewhat of an authority on evolutionary biology.


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    #2074
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.

    In your non-biased opinion of course?


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    #2075
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dvpower wrote: »
    He is somewhat of an authority on evolutionary biology.

    That he is. I wouldn't disagree. I wouldn't consider him an authority on what texts are relevant to society however.
    Ush1 wrote:
    In your non-biased opinion of course?

    It matters little whether I am biased or non-biased, it's up for discussion.


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    #2076
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It matters little whether I am biased or non-biased, it's up for discussion.

    You listed things as if they weren't up for discussion. Is the bible being a stone age text up for discussion?

    EDIT:
    Jakkass wrote: »
    That he is. I wouldn't disagree. I wouldn't consider him an authority on what texts are relevant to society however.

    Who is exactly then?


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    #2077
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is awful reasoning.
    1) The Bible is a bronze age document :pac:
    2) We take inspiration from many sources older than this such as Aristotle & Plato, hugely influential in philosophy & European culture.
    3) Age does not dictate merit.
    4) Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.
    I know you have me on ignore but for the benefit of others:

    Osgoodisgood was talking about credibility, not merit. The words attributed to Jesus can have merit even if there never was a man named Jesus just as the words attributed to Aristotle are just as wise even if there never was a man named Aristotle but the claims of divinity depend on Jesus actually existing and actually being the son of god. Following Jesus' teachings means the bible must have merit but believing he was the son of god means the bible must have credibility.

    Of course every time this point is put to you you miss the point in exactly the same way by conflating credibility with merit as if you haven't been corrected dozens of times before so it's a good thing you have me on ignore so we don't have to go through the usual pedantry. Perhaps Osgoodisgood would like to put it to you if he/she is brave/bored enough


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    #2078
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This is awful reasoning.
    1) The Bible is a bronze age document :pac:
    2) We take inspiration from many sources older than this such as Aristotle & Plato, hugely influential in philosophy & European culture.
    3) Age does not dictate merit.
    4) Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.

    .

    You'll find that Plato and Aristotles works aren't prized for being supernatural guidebooks.


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    #2079
    mloc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭mloc


    PAULWATSON wrote: »
    believe in evolution for that matter.

    I'm afraid it's not a case of believing in evolution. It's case of understanding evolution.


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    #2080
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    Jakkass wrote: »
    4) Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.

    .


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

    and thats just for starters


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    #2081
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nodin wrote: »
    You'll find that Plato and Aristotles works aren't prized for being supernatural guidebooks.
    Still, I always wondered what the world would have turned out like if not Jesus, but the far braver Socrates was the hero of half the world.


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    #2082
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition
    Didn't expect that.


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    #2083
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    robindch wrote: »
    Didn't expect that.

    Nobody ever does..


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    #2084
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    I think ye should go back outside the door and make your entrance again!


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    #2085
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Jakkass wrote: »
    4) Christianity has influenced Europe positively in its development.
    Also
    http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/dark-ages.jpg


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    #2086
    thenutflush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭thenutflush


    LOL @ the way atheists think that they have had realisations that nobody else has had and that everybody around them believes in a god or practises religion.

    The reality is that the most people in the western world lose belief in a god and/ or lose belief in organised religion by the time they reach about 20 but they just keep it to themselves and live their lives as best they can without interfering with other people's lives. I'd say about 80% of people I know (and I'm only roughly guessing because religion isn't something I'd tend to discuss with people) are at least agnostic and leaning towards atheism but most would never bring it up and would just attend mass etc. for the sake of fitting in to social norms (nothing wrong with that is there? after all, if it's all bullshit who cares..)

    Technically I'm an atheist but I have no interest in pushing atheism on others. The type of person who considers themselves to be a militant atheist is usually, I find, not likeable.


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    #2087
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    thenutflush wrote: »
    The type of person who considers themselves to be a militant atheist is usually, I find, not likeable.

    Do you mean:
    The type of person who I consider to be a militant atheist is usually, I find, not likeable.
    ?


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    #2088
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    thenutflush wrote: »
    The reality is that the most people in the western world lose belief in a god and/ or lose belief in organised religion by the time they reach about 20 but they just keep it to themselves

    I think you'll find that you are wrong. But feel free to provide links to studies that back up your statements.


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    #2089
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    tricky D wrote: »
    Also
    http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/dark-ages.jpg
    Also expected. Having read Medieval Philosophy at university I'm inclined to disagree.

    "Dark ages" was a term coined by Renaissance humanists, not as a criticism of religion, but as a criticism of Scholastic philosophy. They were every bit as Christian as their Medieval counterparts.

    I suggest you do some research.


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    #2090
    thenutflush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭thenutflush


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I think you'll find that you are wrong. But feel free to provide links to studies that back up your statements.

    Fair enough, I'm probably wrong...and come on, you know I have no links to back myself up!! On the surface of it though, I can think of about 5 people I know who believes in God or organised religion. As a rough guess, what percentage of your social circle would not consider themselves athiest or richard-dawkins-stiyle agnostic (ie. calling themselves agnostic based on the principle that you can't prove there'e no God despite being sure in practical terms)

    And yes dvpower, I should have said what you said, sorry.


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    #2091
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    thenutflush wrote: »
    As a rough guess, what percentage of your social circle would not consider themselves athiest or richard-dawkins-stiyle agnostic (ie. calling themselves agnostic based on the principle that you can't prove there'e no God despite being sure in practical terms)

    No idea what %, but very few of them I think. Rest are theists of some sort.


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    #2092
    thenutflush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭thenutflush


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No idea what %, but very few of them I think. Rest are theists of some sort.

    Really? I'm in my early 20's and I'm wondering is atheism a passion of youth or something...I know few theists. interesting.


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    #2093
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    thenutflush wrote: »
    LOL @ the way atheists think that they have had realisations that nobody else has had and that everybody around them believes in a god or practises religion.

    Well just about every person has the religion or religious belief they have because they were told this is how it is from a very young age, they did`t suddenly come to a realisation themselves did they?

    So maybe athiests did come to a realisation on their own, it seems more likely they did than a person suddenly realising christianity is correct. A christians parents are usually christians, and grandparents etc, and the same with other religions. So its just passed down, not suddenly realised.


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    #2094
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    So maybe athiests did come to a realisation on their own, it seems more likely they did than a person suddenly realising christianity is correct. A christians parents are usually christians, and grandparents etc, and the same with other religions. So its just passed down, not suddenly realised.

    This certainly isn't true globally. Most Christians live outside Europe, North America, South Africa, and Australia & New Zealand, and most growth is by conversion.


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    #2095
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Jakkass wrote: »
    This certainly isn't true globally. Most Christians live outside Europe, North America, South Africa, and Australia & New Zealand, and most growth is by conversion.

    Religion certainly is passed down, as is certainly true globally:

    http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/religions-map.gif

    If you were born in India you'd most likely be a Hindu. If you were born in the Middle East you'd most likely be a Muslim.

    Do you really think it's an accident that you can get a fairly decent view of the movement of people over the past view centuries by looking at what regions have the same religions? South America having the same brand of Christianity as Spain and Portugal. Canada, Australia and most of the US having the same brand of religion as the UK?

    It's no coincidence that the child of Muslim parents is most likely going to become a Muslim, that a child of Hindu parents is most likely going to become Hindu, and that a child of Christian parents is most likely going to become Christian.


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    #2096
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Religion certainly is passed down, as is certainly true globally:

    http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/religions-map.gif

    If you were born in India you'd most likely be a Hindu. If you were born in the Middle East you'd most likely be a Muslim.

    Citations will be following shortly. Note, I wasn't discussing Hinduism, or Islam. I was discussing Christianity. I would agree that largely religion is passed down through families, but Christianity is mostly by conversion.


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    #2097
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Citations will be following shortly. Note, I wasn't discussing Hinduism, or Islam. I was discussing Christianity. I would agree that largely religion is passed down through families, but Christianity is mostly by conversion.

    What are they converting from so,


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    #2098
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Citations will be following shortly. Note, I wasn't discussing Hinduism, or Islam. I was discussing Christianity. I would agree that largely religion is passed down through families, but Christianity is mostly by conversion.

    If you remove Africa from consideration is that still the case Jakkass?


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    #2099
    Mark200
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Citations will be following shortly. Note, I wasn't discussing Hinduism, or Islam. I was discussing Christianity. I would agree that largely religion is passed down through families, but Christianity is mostly by conversion.

    Well if you're just talking about Christianity, it's interesting to note that the % of Christians in the world is actually falling.


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    #2100
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    strobe wrote: »
    If you remove Africa from consideration is that still the case Jakkass?

    Missionary: Do you believe in God?

    Starving African: No.

    Missionary: You want this sandwich though right? I'll ask you again....


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    #2101
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Missionary: Do you believe in God?

    Starving African: No.

    Missionary: You want this sandwich though right? I'll ask you again....

    Exactly what i was thinking, i just could`t think of a good way of putting it, now i dont have to.


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