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"no, I'm actually an athiest"

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    #2042
    Saganist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Saganist


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Never said you couldn't be those things without believing in God:confused:

    Of course you didn't. Thats not the point though..

    You really do seem :confused::confused:


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    #2043
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Saganist wrote: »
    Of course you didn't. Thats not the point though..

    You really do seem :confused::confused:

    What was your point? Genuinely confused.


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    #2044
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    In all fairness scolding Audrey for contributing to her parish is a big
    double standard. Have you ever bought American goods? You've contributed
    to the American Invasion of the middle east & helped keep the economy going
    while they murdered innocent people. How about their support of Israel's
    policies of forming Bantustan's in Palestine? Ever bought anything
    in Lebanon or good from there? Most likely funded Hezbollah terrorists. You
    may not have meant to do that but in some way or other you have, this logic
    just does not hold up so I don't think it's fair to scold Audrey, she means
    well when she does it & there is no way to actually show funding a
    charity actually goes to covering up paedophilia. I think there are other
    reasons not to contribute to the RCC but this reason in not one of them.

    In all fairness they were probably right to scold me. I didn't see it as compliance but clearly if the money goes where they say it does then I guess it is form of supporting the abuse.


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    #2045
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Shenshen wrote: »
    Out of honest curiosity, where would I find the figures on that?

    Already linked to articles and listed Philip Jenkins who has done work in that area.
    robindch wrote: »
    Lots of potential reasons, but I'd say that one of them is because they're denied the opportunity to have legitimate sex, so they go after the illegitimate stuff..

    ..and yet it has yet to be shown that celibate priests are more likely to abuse than non-celibate clergymen. I would think the position of power to me a much more likely factor. Rather than jump on the first 'reasons' that spring to mind it would be more worthwhile to get to the real reasons behind it, power, authority that went unchallenged, ridiculous respect bordering on sycophantism, and access to children. Same reason why they become swimming coaches, teachers, childcare workers...


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    #2046
    stevoslice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭stevoslice


    for the record lads, priests don't become paedophiles, paedophiles become priests.

    there is not too many other professions out there where you get an automatic jump to be a respected and feared individual with lots of access to kids.

    unfortunately the church and priesthood's insular attitude and constant burying of evidence and covering up only led to facilitate the crimes of these monsters.

    maybe one day if/when the pope sets foot on this land again and apologises to the hundreds of people whose lives the church ruined and accept responsibility for its actions, then maybe the young people of ireland might find a bit of respect for the organisation. i honestly believe the constant stream of abusive priests that we all saw most months on the news as we grew up managed to break our respect for the church, and once we lost that, the belief in the fairy tale quickly followed.

    there is no atheist bandwagon i'm afraid, i suppose for the majority of the new breed of atheists in this country, we 'converted' because the evil cruelty that we saw in the institution forced us to look at the whole thing objectively and we drew our own conclusions.


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    #2047
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    In all fairness they were probably right to scold me. I didn't see it as compliance but clearly if the money goes where they say it does then I guess it is form of supporting the abuse.

    Well using this logic I can easily argue that everytime you buy a tv made
    in china or something you're contributing to Chinese communism & are
    thereby implicated in furthering a social order whose history is full of
    mass graves etc... You're giving money to China's economy by doing so!
    Your money isn't keeping paedophiles from reaching prison it's to do
    with societies relation to the RCC, if you want to end paedophilia you
    should focus on getting governments to drop this respect for their
    institution and to force the RCC itself from below to hand over the
    criminals within to the police. If the pope is a criminal then he should be
    brought to justice, that's debatable but the point is it's an institutional
    problem.

    If you want to use this logic just remember your committing double
    standards all the time, I just don't buy it at all.


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    #2048
    Saganist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Saganist


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    What was your point? Genuinely confused.

    That it doesn't take any belief in order to do good work in your community.

    I'd advise you save the money you give the RCC and when you have enough give it to a homeless shelter or something worthy of your hard earned money.

    The RCC does not deserve anything, not even your respect !


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    #2049
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Maybe you could PM the other reasons? I really am curious!
    Take it up in the A+A forum. It's a bit quieter than here :)


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    #2050
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    Your money isn't keeping paedophiles from reaching prison it's to do
    with societies relation to the RCC, if you want to end paedophilia you
    should focus on getting governments to drop this respect for their
    institution and to force the RCC itself from below to hand over the
    criminals within to the police..

    +1. Spot on. The Gardaí should be kicking in doors to take what files they need, not sitting around waiting for them to be handed over by some doddery old fools in the hierarchy. Our government bottled it from the beginning.


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    #2051
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.


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    #2052
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    What? That's a truly absurd statement to make.


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    #2053
    Scuid Mhór
    Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    cool man i'll just take advantage of a little boy and perform sexual acts on him that he won't understand because i own the system and ain't no one gonna tell me how my moral compass should go.


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    #2054
    Saganist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,333 ✭✭✭Saganist


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    WTF ?


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    #2055
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    This has to be one of the best posts in the whole thread. As an Irishman, I can assure you that I am not blase about paedophilia or rape. I'm open to incest. If your sister's hot, why not?

    Where in the hell did this utter garbage come from? Were you trying to make some point, or just troll? My weak mind is struggling to work out what in the hell you're actually trying to say.


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    #2056
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    This is my experience growing up in an Irish and Irish American family that was riddled with sexual abuse, and repeatedly asking people on both sides of the Atlantic for help. All they ever did was scream bury it bury it bury it, and run away and pretend it never happened, abandon me, and do their best to villify and discredit me, while acting like upstanding ethical citizens. And now suddenly this new enlightened age has dawned and suddenly I'm surrounded by all these wonderful people who really really hate sexual abuse, and have always known how wrong it it, and are just so very much against it. It's very surreal and hypocritical.


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    #2057
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    It just is hard to believe how genuine this new enlighted attitude is.


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    #2058
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one.

    Do you think this is a product of history or of religion? Are you saying that Irish people have a tendency to commit these crimes, but are held back by religious fog, rather than independent reasoning?

    Perhaps you mean that Irish people have cognitive dissonance in this regard?
    Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    Interesting little phrase.


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    #2059
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Vourney wrote: »
    This is my experience growing up in an Irish and Irish American family that was riddled with sexual abuse, and repeatedly asking people on both sides of the Atlantic for help. All they ever did was scream bury it bury it bury it, and run away and pretend it never happened, abandon me, and do their best to villify and discredit me, while acting like upstanding ethical citizens. And now suddenly this new enlightened age has dawned and suddenly I'm surrounded by all these wonderful people who really really hate sexual abuse, and have always known how wrong it it, and are just so very much against it. It's very surreal and hypocritical.

    Okay, so now we have context, but the discussion would be in the context of religion. I think a major part of the shift from the Church is exactly sexual abuse, and I believe that is from a genuine disgust on behalf of the people concerned. The Church and the Gardai virtually institutionalised that behaviour in this country, and there was no recourse. Even now the culprits walk free.

    I'd say it isn't hypocritical, at least not on the part of my generation.


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    #2060
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    Good one Freud :pac:


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    #2061
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    I don't know where it originated, or why it seems this way. I think the Catholic church disempowers people, and that will affect every aspect of a person including their sexuality. Being disempowered isn't good for a person on many different levels, not just sexually, and eventually leads to some kind of perverse on unhealthy behavior as the person naturally will attempt to get back to a point where they feel more empowered.


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    #2062
    Vourney
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Vourney


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »

    Perhaps you mean that Irish people have cognitive dissonance in this regard?
    QUOTE]

    just wanted to clarify I was replying to Caesar Augustus' reply. Yes cognitive dissonance would be one way to put it, what I was trying to say.


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    #2063
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    Vourney wrote: »
    just wanted to clarify I was replying to Caesar Augustus' reply. Yes cognitive dissonance would be one way to put it, what I was trying to say.

    Ah I get what you're trying to say. There appears to be the dual problem of the lack of self-control unleashed as a population has to start thinking for itself as it emerges from a virtual theocracy where some are too weak-minded to think for themselves and never form a decent set of morals independently formed.

    I always find this to be more common among moderate believers, who don't really believe, and yet never thought enough about things to form independent opinion. Give it a few decades, and maybe these kinds of people will have caught up with the rest of us.

    Depressing stuff tbh.


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    #2064
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape.
    Not true.
    Vourney wrote: »
    Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think,
    That's pretty insulting, and not something I've come across to be honest.
    Vourney wrote: »
    leading to confused internet discussions such as this one.
    I don't find it confusing.
    Vourney wrote: »
    This is my experience growing up in an Irish and Irish American family that was riddled with sexual abuse, and repeatedly asking people on both sides of the Atlantic for help. All they ever did was scream bury it bury it bury it, and run away and pretend it never happened, abandon me, and do their best to villify and discredit me, while acting like upstanding ethical citizens.
    So based on your personal experience with a few close minded people you've come to the conclusion that Irish people have "poor weak minds"?
    Vourney wrote: »
    And now suddenly this new enlightened age has dawned
    New enlightened age? The only people I actually know that have any interest in the church or it's beliefs are my grandmothers, and even at that they're not that into it any more.
    Vourney wrote: »
    and suddenly I'm surrounded by all these wonderful people who really really hate sexual abuse, and have always known how wrong it it, and are just so very much against it.
    Because the church doesn't have the power it once had, people have no reason to fear or question them. And it's only recently that most of this has come out.


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    #2065
    JohnathanM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Vourney wrote: »
    I think the Catholic church disempowers people...

    Seems to me that's their job. Keep the people down, and the coffers full at all and any cost. It's control, pure and simple.


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    #2066
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Osgoodisgood wrote: »
    I think his "case" is quite clear. But I for one don't want to hear it discussed with any greater volume than is the norm.

    Welcome to society. People have different views than you do.

    Osgoodisgood wrote: »
    There's a reason why Dawkins won't usually entertain debates with theists about creationism and/ or evolution. It's because it lends the creationist a platform and credibility that their case has not earned.

    Actually Dawkins has with Christian figures who believe in evolution. Dawkins just won't debate Young Earth Creationists such as Ray Comfort for example.

    But, to say the least, I couldn't give a fiddlesticks who Dawkins' debates with or not. He's no authority on discourse.


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    #2067
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Vourney wrote: »
    From my experience, most Irish people are pretty blase about pedophillia, incest and rape. Someone has told them they're supposed to think it's wrong and their poor weak minds become confused by the duality between their honest feelings and what they're supposed to think, leading to confused internet discussions such as this one. Listen to people talk when they think no one can hear, and watch their actions if you want the truth.

    What a load of rubbish, especially from an American where institutionalised child abuse and cover up has emerged far from the Catholic Church. Turns out plenty of yanks were adept at turning a blind eye and using poor weak minds too.


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    #2068
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    prinz wrote: »
    What a load of rubbish, especially from an American where institutionalised child abuse and cover up has emerged far from the Catholic Church. Turns out plenty of yanks were adept at turning a blind eye and using poor weak minds too.

    Just because they do it too doesn't mean the guy isn't making a fair point.


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    #2069
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    Just because they do it too doesn't mean the guy isn't making a fair point.

    Er, yes it does. He is saying the Irish are uniquely blasé about turning a blind eye to child abuse amongst others. That's a nonsense point. There is nothing remotely unique to the abuse and cover up in Ireland. Apart from that (s)he mentions the 'duality of being told something is wrong and wanting to do it.... most Irish people secretly want to engage in paedophilia and incest? News to me. Nothing remotely peculiar to the Irish whatsoever in what was posted, most of which was gibberish.

    So what's the fair point?


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    #2070
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    PAULWATSON wrote: »
    Do you ever get the impression that most people are petty, easily duped clowns?
    Thankfully most people aren't irrational nut-jobs who get freaked out about Ireland not being the way it was pre 1990s and thus their comfort zone being gone, and who fool themselves into thinking that people here only changed because they were duped into it and are trying to be "trendy" etc.


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    #2071
    Osgoodisgood
    Registered Users Posts: 869 ✭✭✭Osgoodisgood


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Welcome to society. People have different views than you do.

    Gee thanks Jakkass. Does that come with an optional pat on the head? My point, as you well know, was that giving airtime to stone age thinking lends it a credibility that it doesn't deserve.
    Actually Dawkins has with Christian figures who believe in evolution. Dawkins just won't debate Young Earth Creationists such as Ray Comfort for example.

    But, to say the least, I couldn't give a fiddlesticks who Dawkins' debates with or not. He's no authority on discourse

    See my comment above. Obviously I mentioned Dawkins' name as an example of someone who draws a distinction between debates worth having and those that have no upside for him.

    BTW, nice non sequitur on the "He's no authority on discourse" emote.


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