CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

save the rail

Irish Rail have been granted permission to suspend services on condition they faciliate Community Rail Partnership, so effectively the line will close for a short while until the new company is ready to take over, so good news guys, decent service by a company who will run a service to suit passengers

Lenny Lovett

save the rail wrote: »

Irish Rail have been granted permission to suspend services on condition they faciliate Community Rail Partnership, so effectively the line will close for a short while until the new company is ready to take over, so good news guys, decent service by a company who will run a service to suit passengers

Tell us more please.

save the rail

The NTA granted IR permission to suspend services on the Rosslare Line on condition that they facilitate a Community Rail Partnership, maintain the line and provide adequate bus services. The CRP will work with the community and with the rail operator to provide a decent service. We are currently working with 2 companies who are very interested in taking over the line.

foggy_lad

save the rail wrote: »

Irish Rail have been granted permission to suspend services on condition they faciliate Community Rail Partnership, so effectively the line will close for a short while until the new company is ready to take over, so good news guys, decent service by a company who will run a service to suit passengers

which line? dublin-rosslare or limerick junction-rosslare? who are the company involved?

save the rail

foggy_lad wrote: »

which line? dublin-rosslare or limerick junction-rosslare? who are the company involved?

Rosslare - Waterford minimum but could possibly be extended. At the moment company names will not be released until the company that gets the tender is notified and announces it.

foggy_lad

well considering the replacement bus service has not been figured out yet it will be years not months before anything like tender applications come from it imho

save the rail

foggy_lad wrote: »

well considering the replacement bus service has not been figured out yet it will be years not months before anything like tender applications come from it imho

what has the replacement bus service got to do with anything???

foggy_lad

save the rail wrote: »

what has the replacement bus service got to do with anything???

they cant suspend the trains until they have an adequate bus service in place and when it is they will be in no hurry to do anything else!

save the rail

foggy_lad wrote: »

they cant suspend the trains until they have an adequate bus service in place and when it is they will be in no hurry to do anything else!

They will have bus sorted out quick enough as they want rid of the line. We have the companies line up to take over

penexpers

save the rail wrote: »

They will have bus sorted out quick enough as they want rid of the line. We have the companies line up to take over

Would be interested to know what these new companies see in the line compared to IR. Reading the NTA report, it states that SERA never did a cost benefit analysis on increased services and that the numbers presented by SERA for increased services don't stack up with the catchment areas for the service.

foggy_lad

i am not raining on the plans which will be most welcom in the wexford waterford area but just advising not holding your breaths while irish rail have any involvement.

OurLadyofKnock

save the rail wrote: »

Irish Rail have been granted permission to suspend services on condition they faciliate Community Rail Partnership, so effectively the line will close for a short while until the new company is ready to take over, so good news guys, decent service by a company who will run a service to suit passengers

Sounds too good to be true. Would be delighted it this was true. But I cannot see how the technical and union stuff can be ironed out at all?

OurLadyofKnock

save the rail wrote: »

They will have bus sorted out quick enough as they want rid of the line. We have the companies line up to take over

Just seems to be moving too fast to be bringing this up so soon?

flyingsnail

Have invitations for tenders been issued?

save the rail

foggy_lad wrote: »

i am not raining on the plans which will be most welcom in the wexford waterford area but just advising not holding your breaths while irish rail have any involvement.

Irish rail wont have any involvement. They have announced 18th sept as lst day the train will run.

save the rail

penexpers wrote: »

Would be interested to know what these new companies see in the line compared to IR. Reading the NTA report, it states that SERA never did a cost benefit analysis on increased services and that the numbers presented by SERA for increased services don't stack up with the catchment areas for the service.

IR figures are wrong they based them on census figures which are 4 yrs old, hundreds of houses have been built in bridgetown, rosslare ect those numbeers were never taken into consideration. The other companies can see potential for high passenger numbers, links with ferries ect.

biatas

save the rail wrote: »

Irish rail wont have any involvement. They have announced 18th sept as lst day the train will run.

I'm not surprised they are moving so quickly, they cant wait to get rid of the line. :rolleyes:

Godge

This I will believe when I see it and if it lasts for longer than six months. Unless of course, there is a Government subvention, like the one that keeps several useless regional airports open. If the taxpayers end up paying for a private company to run a service that nobody uses, it will be another notch for the gombeen politicians.

markpb

save the rail wrote: »

Irish rail wont have any involvement. They have announced 18th sept as lst day the train will run.

Would Irish Rail not be responsible for the upkeep of the track and signalling equipment even though the trains are being operated separately?

Partizan

Great to see positive news regarding the futurte of the line and that there are 2 companies with a solid interest in the line. However call me a sceptic but I'll see it when I believe it.

Seruious though, this line has huge potential and the private operator would use the line to gain a foothold on other services: Wexford-Waterford (intercity), Rosslare Harbour - Limerick Junction and Rosslare Harbour-Bray.

Could be exciting times.

Partizan

markpb wrote: »

Would Irish Rail not be responsible for the upkeep of the track and signalling equipment even though the trains are being operated separately?

I imagine an arrangement could be made where the private operator runs the services and owns the rolling stock while leasing it off IE who in turn would maintain upkeep on foot of some sort of subsidy until costs are down to a minimum. The private company in time could even take control of the line and begin investing in it.

OurLadyofKnock

Partizan wrote: »

I imagine an arrangement could be made where the private operator runs the services and owns the rolling stock while leasing it off IE who in turn would maintain upkeep on foot of some sort of subsidy until costs are down to a minimum. The private company in time could even take control of the line and begin investing in it.

One major and I believe issue which can't be dealt with is the Cult of CIE.

Many of the trainspotters on this board would die for CIE mangement. 72 Chicken Dinners in Heaven and all that.

save the rail

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

One major and I believe issue which can't be dealt with is the Cult of CIE.

Many of the trainspotters on this board would die for CIE mangement. 72 Chicken Dinners in Heaven and all that.

OMG are they still on about the dinners? :rolleyes:

steamengine

Partizan wrote: »

Great to see positive news regarding the futurte of the line and that there are 2 companies with a solid interest in the line. However call me a sceptic but I'll see it when I believe it.

Seruious though, this line has huge potential and the private operator would use the line to gain a foothold on other services: Wexford-Waterford (intercity), Rosslare Harbour - Limerick Junction and Rosslare Harbour-Bray.

Could be exciting times.

+1......although the CRP project is not without potential pitfalls, there is a similar success story around the corner in Cork. That is the 'peoples' co-op initiated ferry service to and from Swansea, now up and running (MV Julia).

Just because IR have been shown up to be apathetic regarding Rosslare, doesn't mean that the CRP will not be a runner, particularly when ferries are entered into the equation.

Could be exciting times - I'll echo that !

parsi

Will the Request for Tenders be published on etenders.gov.ie ?

Cookie_Monster

parsi wrote: »

Will the Request for Tenders be published on etenders.gov.ie ?

I'd be very suspicious if it wasn't

OurLadyofKnock

parsi wrote: »

Will the Request for Tenders be published on etenders.gov.ie ?

Probably not as I suspect this entire thread is bull**** or some kind of Magical Thinking exercise by the social justice division.

Call me cynical. But so far Save the Rail has produced nothing to back up his asseration that private rail operators are coming in.

I suspect two reasons for this.

A) Save the Rail is a headbanger/spoofer

B)Save the Rail is not a headbanger but is part of a clever ruse by some people in the south west to make it look to CIE that a private operator is coming on board, and knowing well the psychotic mindset of the CIE unions it might inspire CIE to "come up with a solution" and keep the line running in IE hands.

If it is then major respect.

OurLadyofKnock

save the rail wrote: »

OMG are they still on about the dinners? :rolleyes:

OMG when will you offer proof of your private operator "facts"?

This thread (and you) thus far reminds me of these "Private Rail Frieght Compaines" that were starting up in Ireland and when you looked into it, the "company" was some headbanger who typed up a single page document and sent it out as a press release. Then his mammy told him his tea was ready.

That's about how much of a private operator for the line you have presented thus far in this thread.


Of course I could be wrong and I will offer a public apology if you are legit.

markpb

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Probably not as I suspect this entire thread is bull**** or some kind of Magical Thinking exercise by the social justice division.

I'd say it's more likely that some politician has "promised" a company €x subvention to run the line. It will take some time to sort out, BE will enter the market in the meantime, the subvention to BE will (naturally) be lower than to the rail operator, the DoF will refuse the higher subvention and the company will run away.

Or it's all rubbish. I can't see any private company wanting to operate a highly expensive rail line between several relatively small towns. Not without massive subsidy from the government.

topnotch

The difference in track gauge is an insurmountable barrier in my opinion. It will require regauging at considerable cost or rental of IE equipment at an even greater cost.

-Chris-

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Many of the trainspotters on this board would die for CIE mangement. 72 Chicken Dinners in Heaven and all that.

Can we leave the chicken dinners out of it?

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Probably not as I suspect this entire thread is bull**** or some kind of Magical Thinking exercise by the social justice division.

Call me cynical. But so far Save the Rail has produced nothing to back up his asseration that private rail operators are coming in.

I suspect two reasons for this.

A) Save the Rail is a headbanger/spoofer

B)Save the Rail is not a headbanger but is part of a clever ruse by some people in the south west to make it look to CIE that a private operator is coming on board, and knowing well the psychotic mindset of the CIE unions it might inspire CIE to "come up with a solution" and keep the line running in IE hands.

If it is then major respect.

Please stop being so personal in your posting - attack the post, not the poster.

If Save the Rail can provide backup, great. If they can't then obviously that will draw their thread into doubt. In the meantime calling other posters headbangers and spoofers isn't on.

OurLadyofKnock

-Chris- wrote: »

If Save the Rail can provide backup, great. If they can't then obviously that will draw their thread into doubt. In the meantime calling other posters headbangers and spoofers isn't on.

But calling them "trolls" because they call a spade and spade and mods like you giving a thumbs up is perfectly fine I take it? There are endless personal attacks on this board which the mods have turned a blind eye to. The banning of DWCommuter was absolutely outragous. Why? Because the truth hurts people who prefer to live in anorak dreamworld.

This is a bull**** thread with no substance from what I can tell. Complete bull****.

Deal with it.

dermo88

I see no point in any private operator taking over Rosslare Harbour to Bray alone, unless they are allowed through, reasonably unimpeded running to Dublin Connolly/Maynooth, where the train set can not interfere with DART and Suburban operators.

It needs an "independent" ombudsman to oversee the timetable.

BUT:

CIE and IE are the children with the Father unnamed of the following companies:

Great Southern and Western.

(Who never cooperated for the common good with Midland Great Western, Dublin South Eastern, or Great Northern)

Great Southern

(Yes, the very same boyos who single tracked the mainline to Galway)

CIE

The moment any private operator threatens their hegemony, watch the fun and games start. As follows:

Special offers by Bus Eireann
Stealth Sabotage of the private operators equipment, such as running a DART 5 minutes prior to the arrival of the through "Express" from Greystones to Dublin, thereby causing it to do the run in 50 minutes as opposed to a possible 26 minutes.

Finally, when faced with the "attack the post, not the poster", I am forced to state:

Some posters are uneducated. Some are ignorant. The best posters can solve the first two problems. However, we cannot solve stupidity.

It is a year to the day since the trainspotters sent me away. I can say that all I predicted came to pass, and I'll be sending an e-mail this evening to commemorate this great event.

-Chris-

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

But calling them "trolls" because they call a spade and spade and mods like you giving a thumbs up is perfectly fine I take it? There are endless personal attacks on this board which the mods have turned a blind eye to. The banning of DWCommuter was absolutely outragous. Why? Because the truth hurts people who prefer to live in anorak dreamworld.

This is a bull**** thread with no substance from what I can tell. Complete bull****.

Deal with it.

OurLadyofKnock banned for a week for arguing mod decision on-thread. Due to OurLadyofKnock's previous history and the fact that they're just back from a month ban, this ban has been increased by Calina with support from the other C&T mods.

Save the rail - please post some backup to your assertions, otherwise it's just a thread based on hearsay and is likely to continue in this vein.

goingnowhere

I love this Irish trait to knock anyone who tries something innovative. This is a community project and deserves support.

One company has made its pitch http://www.munster-express.ie/business/rail-revolution-proposed-for-city-tramore-and-wexford/

Save the Rail claim 2 companies interested, Rail Users Ireland 3. They deserve a bit of latitude. After all the alternative is no train at all, so anything they do is an improvement.

save the rail

the campaigners are working on it, when more info is available it will be posted. At the moment there are at least 2 companies interested and meetings are taking place. as things progress the thread will be updated. This is only the third working day since the NTA decision, give it a bit of time to get sorted.

topnotch

How many people currently use the line from Waterford to Limerick Junction is it greater than less than or equal to 70,000?

dermo88

They cannot openly say which companies are interested, obviously because the main power likely to block such an initiative is CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. It would be a precedent in Ireland, but the good thing is, privatisation is not viewed as the bogeyman towards the railway network it once was in the 1980's or 1990's.

This is because there have been success stories in Sweden, Denmark, Britain, Germany and Switzerland with private operators.

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

Based on cutbacks implemented by Renfe (Spanish railways) in the 1990's, the benchmark is 25% farebox recovery ratio vs expenditure, or 50,000 users per annum, whichever is the lower on regional routes.

BUT....I will state what the dogs on the streets know. CIE and Iarnrod Eireann will do all they can to sabotage any potential private operator doing a better job.

save the rail

dermo88 wrote: »

They cannot openly say which companies are interested, obviously because the main power likely to block such an initiative is CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. It would be a precedent in Ireland, but the good thing is, privatisation is not viewed as the bogeyman towards the railway network it once was in the 1980's or 1990's.

This is because there have been success stories in Sweden, Denmark, Britain, Germany and Switzerland with private operators.

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

Based on cutbacks implemented by Renfe (Spanish railways) in the 1990's, the benchmark is 25% farebox recovery ratio vs expenditure, or 50,000 users per annum, whichever is the lower on regional routes.

BUT....I will state what the dogs on the streets know. CIE and Iarnrod Eireann will do all they can to sabotage any potential private operator doing a better job.

Which is why the companies interested wont be named too early in the game:)

topnotch

dermo88 wrote: »

I have no idea on the amount of users on Waterford to Limerick Junction. Maybe someone else can furnish figures.

The reason i ask is that there are currently three trains each way per day Monday-Saturday. Also you have four significant towns Tipperary 5,065 ,Cahir 3,381 Clonmel 17,008 and Carrick-on-Suir 5,856 ignoring the surrounding populations. If as i suspect they cant get 70,000 a day with this frequency of service and the size of these towns what chance is there of getting 70,000 with Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, Bridgetown.

highlydebased

topnotch wrote: »

The reason i ask is that there are currently three trains each way per day Monday-Saturday. Also you have four significant towns Tipperary 5,065 ,Cahir 3,381 Clonmel 17,008 and Carrick-on-Suir 5,856 ignoring the surrounding populations. If as i suspect they cant get 70,000 a day with this frequency of service and the size of these towns what chance is there of getting 70,000 with Campile, Ballycullane, Wellingtonbridge, Bridgetown.

70,000 a day :eek:

The current timetable on Limk Junc-Waterford might not do alot for commuting to Waterford though, most of the passengers on it seem to be for connections to/from Dublin/Cork at the junction. Probably not the fairest of comparisions in that case

-Chris-

Modnote:

This thread is being left open for discussion as to whether it's a worthwhile exercise for this change to happen.

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

In the absence of that information, this thread is purely academic.

I'm concerned that this thread will potentially become heated again and result in the banning of further posters, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen especially on a thread that's based on an (as yet) unconfirmed rumour.

If the thread becomes properly heated again, or if Save the Rail can't provide more information in a reasonable amount of time, I feel it's best being closed.

Thanks

Hungerford

According to IE material from last year, Limerick-Waterford does 54,000 passengers per year. A pretty solid number considering that they have been trying to strangle it for years. It actually has a decent amount of potential if Tricky Dicky decided to introduce proper services on it. The magnificent WRC with modern signalling etc. will only carry 100,000 per year and that includes the solid pre-existing Limerick-Ennis commuter business.

By reference, if IE's figures are to be believed, Waterford-Rosslare would do in the region of 15,000 passengers per year. The Nenagh branch does 36,000 per year.

Hungerford

-Chris- wrote: »

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

Apart from the voluminous amount of binding conditions relating to the maintenance of infrastructure in the NTA's decision?

parsi

save the rail wrote: »

the campaigners are working on it, when more info is available it will be posted. At the moment there are at least 2 companies interested and meetings are taking place. as things progress the thread will be updated. This is only the third working day since the NTA decision, give it a bit of time to get sorted.

This seems like a nice invitation-only game whereby a private company will access a grant-aided infrastructure without any public procurement process.

dermo88

Is'nt that better than the nationalised operator abusing the procurement process, receiving a subsidy, getting Seouled out, while selling out the customer, and having fun with Korean brassers at our expense.

Let a private operator do it. Let them access grant aided infrastructure. Because, if they don't do it, who will.

Grant aided infrastructure exists in a lot of other countries. Why not Ireland. The private sector uses it as well.

save the rail

-Chris- wrote: »

Modnote:

This thread is being left open for discussion as to whether it's a worthwhile exercise for this change to happen.

While it's understandable that there are commercial sensitivities regarding which company might get the gig subsequently, it's also somewhat surprising that there's no evidence that IR were given the okay to come off the route with strings attached.

In the absence of that information, this thread is purely academic.

I'm concerned that this thread will potentially become heated again and result in the banning of further posters, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen especially on a thread that's based on an (as yet) unconfirmed rumour.

If the thread becomes properly heated again, or if Save the Rail can't provide more information in a reasonable amount of time, I feel it's best being closed.

Thanks

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_position_on_proposal.pdf

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

markpb

save the rail wrote: »

PAGE 18 LAST PARAGRAPH

I've heard of clutching at straws but that's taking the biscuit

topnotch

save the rail wrote: »

Which is why the companies interested wont be named too early in the game:)

I wonder will you be still smiling when your bluff is called.

parsi

dermo88 wrote: »

Is'nt that better than the nationalised operator abusing the procurement process, receiving a subsidy, getting Seouled out, while selling out the customer, and having fun with Korean brassers at our expense.

Let a private operator do it. Let them access grant aided infrastructure. Because, if they don't do it, who will.

Grant aided infrastructure exists in a lot of other countries. Why not Ireland. The private sector uses it as well.

Isn't there usually an applications process ? A service guarantee by the successful bidder ? How do they decide which company gets the mini-monopoly ?

Not much point in replacing one bunch of muppets with another..

save the rail

Hungerford wrote: »

According to IE material from last year, Limerick-Waterford does 54,000 passengers per year. A pretty solid number considering that they have been trying to strangle it for years. It actually has a decent amount of potential if Tricky Dicky decided to introduce proper services on it. The magnificent WRC with modern signalling etc. will only carry 100,000 per year and that includes the solid pre-existing Limerick-Ennis commuter business.

By reference, if IE's figures are to be believed, Waterford-Rosslare would do in the region of 15,000 passengers per year. The Nenagh branch does 36,000 per year.

Door to door surveying in villages the train stops in (not all homes contacted about half in each village) shows that based on 3 trains a day 70k people would use the service. The problem with the old service was that the train left waterford BEFORE people finished work so they had no other option but to drive. Head counts done on a daily basis showed 40+ passengers average daily each way, big difference to IE 25. Head counts were conducted whilst college students were on holiday