Bring Back Bertie ?

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I never suggested that we shouldn't look to how corruption is dealt with abroad so please don't misquote me . . what I am saying is that if you believe that Ireland is unique and if you want to pay taxes to another state and hold that state up as an fair-minded, non-corrupt, ethical politics then you better get your facts straight . .

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Because British taxes are always put to noble and ethical use ? Did the expenses scandal in 2009 pass you by or do you just choose to ignore it ?

I wish people would quit the drama talk about leaving Ireland. I travel (a lot) and believe me the grass is not always greener !!

So okay you didn't say we shouldn't, just that there wasn't any point:rolleyes:

It's the usual FFail defence: 'Sure look at FG/Lab they're no better.'
Or in this case from parties to nations.
As I recall numerous resignations were tendered at the mere sniff of wrong doing, lest the people lose faith in government. So even with the corruption there was an element of decency. It is not better here in that regard were politicians hold on to the trough tooth and nail.

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Because he is a more capable leader than any of the alternatives (across the parties) . . . the article attached in post 1 outlines the rationale in a little more detail

Bertie is a dishonest old man with no political life left in him .

He is undoubtedly a bigger liar than Ivor ever was .

He was also an extremely weak leader - I would prefer Jackie Healy Rae or Ivor Callely to lead the country rather than this old failed politician.

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Provide an alternative that is any different?

Look where we are now.
Do you really think that an alternative government over the last 10 or 15 years would have ended us up in this mess?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Because he is a more capable leader than any of the alternatives (across the parties) . . . the article attached in post 1 outlines the rationale in a little more detail

OMG :eek:
Bertie has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was not able to lead a succesful society. He was succesful in ensuring that his friends were well looked after but this was at the cost of everyone else. Unfortunately the idiots out there thought he was a sound man with his pint of bass. I'll give him some credit for Norn iron but this is truly overshadowed by his gross mismanagement of the country and also his dispicable acts WRT the tribunal.
Bertie along with many others in FF IMO are traitors to Ireland.

(note that I have no political allegiances)

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

I would personally start a national campaign to refresh the memories of the nation about what this one man did in his past and would try to counter-balance future and present spin attempts of re-writing history so it looks better for (non)good old Bertie!
If that meant having to stick leaflets through every door in the country - by hell, I will do it!

If you need a hand distributing those, count me in!

Seth Brundle

Count me in also

juuge

I believe coming up to the next election every billboard in the country should show a picture of Bertie, with the caption...
'500+ people took your advice and committed suicide. Well done!'

Liam Byrne

juuge wrote: »

I believe coming up to the next election every billboard in the country should show a picture of Bertie, with the caption...
'500+ people took your advice and committed suicide. Well done!'

Should be able to Photoshop those up more convincingly than the ridiculous "man of the people" ones where he didn't actually bother meeting those nasty normal people but wanted to give the usual false impression that he did.

hallelujajordan

So, Biggins, Liam Byrne and KBannon are all going to go around and deliver leaflets through every door in the country ?? And you wonder why we don't accept all your personal testimonies and threats to leave Ireland at face value ??

Liam Byrne wrote: »

IF that is the mantra, does it not follow on that every single member of FF is directly responsible and answerable for the actions of Ahern (and Haughey and Callelly and Burke and Lawlor and O'Donoghue and O'Dea) ? Based purely on them being an FF member ?

Or does "collective responsibility" only apply when it's used to absolve FF of its responsibilities and the consequences of its actions ?

Yes! You are absolutely right. I am a member of a political party and as a member I take collective responsibility for the actions of said party. As part of its membership I play a role in forming it's manifesto and electing its officials (even if I don't agree with all of them) so I have to bear collective responsibility for the actions of those officials. I have no problem with that.


BTW, off-topic but I thought I would share . . Was leaving the Aviva stadium after the game tonight and who should I bump into only the man himself. I said hello from y'all

hallelujajordan

kbannon wrote: »

Look where we are now.
Do you really think that an alternative government over the last 10 or 15 years would have ended us up in this mess?

Yes, I really believe that. Do you really believe that we wouldn't be in this mess? Can you point me to the fundamentally different economic policies put forward by FG between the period from 1997 - 2007 that allow you to draw such a conclusion ?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes! You are absolutely right. I am a member of a political party and as a member I take collective responsibility for the actions of said party. As part of its membership I play a role in forming it's manifesto and electing its officials (even if I don't agree with all of them) so I have to bear collective responsibility for the actions of those officials. I have no problem with that.

Appreciate the answer. You've chosen to be a member, and therefore the above is the only correct mindset.

So therefore you accept that you are responsible for ruining the economy.

Now, can you answer the other questions about "collective responsibility" ? The one that asks where "collective responsibility" applies when people choose not to be members.

Are people in China or Australia part of your "collective responsibility" ?
Are children born in Ireland in 2010 part of your "collective responsibility" ?

If not, then where do you draw the line as to who is, and why ?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

So, Biggins, Liam Byrne and KBannon are all going to go around and deliver leaflets through every door in the country ?? And you wonder why we don't accept all your personal testimonies and threats to leave Ireland at face value ??

What ?

If Ahern runs, we campaign against him.

If he's then elected, we leave in disgust.

God help you with Terminator or Back to the Future if you can't get your head around a straightforward timeline. :rolleyes:

All that rewriting history must have your brain addled.

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...BTW, off-topic but I thought I would share . . Was leaving the Aviva stadium after the game tonight and who should I bump into only the man himself. I said hello from y'all

Don't bother next time but do tell him, instead of paying for his admittance ticket, maybe he should pay his taxes first - on time! Not years later...and the revenue commoners are still waiting...

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Appreciate the answer. You've chosen to be a member, and therefore the above is the only correct mindset.

So therefore you accept that you are responsible for ruining the economy.

Now, can you answer the other questions about "collective responsibility" ? The one that asks where "collective responsibility" applies when people choose not to be members.

Are people in China or Australia part of your "collective responsibility" ?
Are children born in Ireland in 2010 part of your "collective responsibility" ?

If not, then where do you draw the line as to who is, and why ?

Yes, IMHO the only way to avoid collective responsibility is to chose not to live, pay taxes and vote in the Irish state. By doing so, your behaviour contributes to the collective and if that behaviour causes problems then you are collectively responsible.

Look, I don't agree with all FF policies; as a member of the party and I can vote against them and try to influence them. If I fail, I do not get to absolve myself of responsibility for the impact of those policies, nor do I want to !

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What ?

If Ahern runs, we campaign against him.

If he's then elected, we leave in disgust.

God help you with Terminator or Back to the Future if you can't get your head around a straightforward timeline. :rolleyes:

All that rewriting history must have your brain addled.

What has my brain addled is the concept of the three of you going around every house in the country delivering leaflets. I don't want to call you a liar but like Black Briar said earlier I simply don't believe you will do this

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

What has my brain addled is the concept of the three of you going around every house in the country delivering leaflets. I don't want to call you a liar but like Black Briar said earlier I simply don't believe you will do this

You really haven't seen me in action have you?
If I can tackle Harney on TV and radio, tackle the HSE on same and tackle many a politician face to face, in the Dail building and outside it, speak to the masses at rallies and yes, I have come face to face with Bertie too a number of times, I sure as hell and will, make sure the piece of low crap never gets elected as president!
...And again if that takes every door knocked to re-awaken the public, I'll buy a damn good pair of walking shoes.

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes! You are absolutely right. I am a member of a political party and as a member I take collective responsibility for the actions of said party.

Thats not true - you are not taking responsibility for the years of corruption in Fianna Fail . You are denying that FF tolerates ( and in some cases celebrates) corruption and corrupt individuals .

You are trying to re-write Bertie's legacy as a good guy when in fact he was one of the three most rotten politicians in irish political history . He is now in the shadows of the back benches ( when he actually turns up for work )

A dishonest man indeed .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, IMHO the only way to avoid collective responsibility is to chose not to live, pay taxes and vote in the Irish state. By doing so, your behaviour contributes to the collective and if that behaviour causes problems then you are collectively responsible.
!

Ridiculous! My behaviour isn't what caused problems. By the above reckoning I'm somehow responsible for all the murders in the country too.

I'll ask AGAIN - are babies born in this country in 2010 responsible for the mess, collectively? Or has your caveat of "paying taxes" covered that angle for you?

What about those who've evaded taxes ?

What about those housewives who never paid taxes?

Who, exactly, are you trying to pin the blame on?

timespast

hallelujajordan wrote: »

So, bear with me . . .

Interesting article in yesterdays Sindo by John Drennan arguing that Bertie Ahern might be a more appropriate leader for todays times than the current FF leadership . .

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-hes-heroic-smart-and-cunning-so-why-not-bring-back-bertie-2325241.html

When the tribunal finds (as Im confident it will) that Ahern has no case to answer then I see no reason why not to put him back into the Taoiseach's chair. . .

For those of us who support the man . . we know that Bertie would arguably be more communicative, more visible, more capable of dealing with the current crisis than Brian Cowen.

For those who villify him and who blame him for all that is wrong in our country today, how better to punish him than to make him stand front and centre and deal with the mess that you believe he created . . or as Drennan puts it . .

"But returning Ahern to office would be the political equivalent of community service for on every working day the Taoiseach would be confronted with the consequences of his policies and told "You had better sort this one out too, Bertie". "

Let's not turn this thread into a rehash of all the old issues. . . there has been enough of that and we all know where each other stands. . .

The question is, In the current circumstances is there merit to bringing back Bertie Ahern to lead the country out of the quagmire ? ? ?

Let's not rehash all the old issues?

It's the old issues that give me my answer to your question.......

certainly not!

(BTW I believe these columnists come up with these ridiculous ideas so it keeps getting them noticed.)

Liam Byrne

Actually, having the original post re-quoted has highlighted one point that I originally missed.....the phrase "community service"

If I thought for a second that Ahern was capable of running the country, and that it would indeed be "community service" - i.e. completely unpaid, like anyone else who did wrong - then maybe there would be some poetic justice in there.

But that's an aside, because there's no way that would be done, and anyway he couldn't even manage a booming economy let alone a crap one (or even manage a chequebook for that matter)

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

nonsense and its really starting to irritate me how you misquote the suicide comment. . For the record (for the nth time) Ahern did not tell you or anyone else to commit suicide. He said (and I paraphrase) he did not understand how those people who were so negative about the economy were not driven by this negativity into a suicidal state. .

Why bother to paraphrase? His insulting, callous suggestion is easy to find:

‘Sitting on the sidelines or on the fence cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. In fact, I don’ t know how people who engage in that don’t commit suicide because, quite frankly, the only thing that motivates me is being able to actually change something.’ Bertie Ahern 2007.

And ‘change something’ he did:– his tune - the following day when he had to apologise for his offensive remark, in light of the high level of suicides in this country. Too late, Bertie! Those nasty words will never be forgotten. Such a statement is utterly disgraceful, especially from a Taoiseach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

No matter what spin one puts on these words, the message is clear: that any people who didn’t pretend to share Bertie’s bogus, self-glorifying ‘confidence’ in the Irish economy were just being negative, and therefore should go and kill themselves.

Full Speech: http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/newsspecial_av.html The suicide comment is near the end.

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, IMHO the only way to avoid collective responsibility is to chose not to live, pay taxes and vote in the Irish state. By doing so, your behaviour contributes to the collective and if that behaviour causes problems then you are collectively responsible.

This is absolute nonsense. According to this way of thinking, everyone living in the Irish state, paying taxes, who didn’t vote for Fianna Fail, are to blame for the severe consequences of having a Fianna Fail government. What has paying taxes got to do with it anyway? These claims have reached a new level of absurdity. It’s like something out of Monty Python.

The notion of ‘collective responsibility’ on the part of all Irish citizens has been done to death at this stage, and given the contempt it deserves. It is time for Fianna Fail voters to face facts, own up to it, and accept the blame for the economic ruin of this country. Voting for Fianna Fail is bad enough, but trying to lay the blame for their incompetence and corruption on those of us who didn’t vote them in is totally inappropriate and offensive. If you think that by repeating this mantra, like a dripping tap, that we will eventually believe it, then you are grossly mistaken. We didn’t vote for them – we are not responsible for their failings and dishonesty – full stop!

Look, I don't agree with all FF policies; as a member of the party and I can vote against them and try to influence them. If I fail, I do not get to absolve myself of responsibility for the impact of those policies, nor do I want to !

Nor should you. You cannot ‘absolve’ yourself ‘of responsibility of the impact’ of any Fianna Fail policies because you and the rest of the Fianna Fail voters have put them in government, and you lot and the Green Party continue to support them. The rest of us are stuck with them through no fault of our own.

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

Nor should you. You cannot ‘absolve’ yourself ‘of responsibility of the impact’ of any Fianna Fail policies because you and the rest of the Fianna Fail voters have put them in government, and you lot and the Green Party continue to support them. The rest of us are stuck with them through no fault of our own.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ridiculous! My behaviour isn't what caused problems. By the above reckoning I'm somehow responsible for all the murders in the country too.

I'll ask AGAIN - are babies born in this country in 2010 responsible for the mess, collectively? Or has your caveat of "paying taxes" covered that angle for you?

What about those who've evaded taxes ?

What about those housewives who never paid taxes?

Who, exactly, are you trying to pin the blame on?

Seriously, can you not see the contradiction in your own views ? On the one hand you expect me to take responsibility for the actions of and people within Fianna Fail, even those that I don't agree with or even voted against. You apply the principle of collective responsibility here and I have no problem with that. . .

The same principle applies at a national level. We as a people overspent . . yes you can argue that the government didn't control us and I would agree with you. I would also argue that had the government controlled us better we would have replaced them with one who would have allowed us to keep spending. We as a people overspent and now we have to pay it all back. That does not mean that every single person overspent . . but collectively we did and collectively we are responsible.

Liam, whether or not you include babies, housewives, non-taxpayers etc in the definition of we as a people is up to you and i'm really not that interested in being dragged into a silly pedantic discussion . . . TBH, it's a red herring that you have introduced as an attempt to ridicule a perfectly reasonable concept . .

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

Why bother to paraphrase? His insulting, callous suggestion is easy to find:



And ‘change something’ he did:– his tune - the following day when he had to apologise for his offensive remark, in light of the high level of suicides in this country. Too late, Bertie! Those nasty words will never be forgotten. Such a statement is utterly disgraceful, especially from a Taoiseach.

No matter what spin one puts on these words, the message is clear: that any people who didn’t pretend to share Bertie’s bogus, self-glorifying ‘confidence’ in the Irish economy were just being negative, and therefore should go and kill themselves.

Full Speech: http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/newsspecial_av.html The suicide comment is near the end.

There is no doubt that this was a gaff on Bertie Ahern's part . . He spoke off-the-cuff, said something he should not have in the heat of the moment and apologised afterwards . . I think we have all done that at times . .

Let me ask you a question and also ask you to answer it honestly . . Do you really believe that Bertie Ahern felt that people like McWilliams etc ought to commit suicide ? Do you think he would have liked to see that happen ? Do you think he would have been happy afterwards ?

C'mon, I can understand a lot of the criticism of Ahern but our inability to forgive the suicide comment and recognise it for what it was is just childish as this stage.

raymon

Hallelujah -

Dont include me in your "we are all to blame" argument
I did not have my snout in the FF trough.


If you do not know what I mean by the "FF trough" - please read this article from your fav paper - the "sindo " as you call it . Fresh from today

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-to-probe-false-invoices-worth-euro60000-at-stateaided-firm-2329046.html
"Gardai to probe false invoices worth €60,000 at state-aided firm "

It outlines what is wrong with FF - the sense of entitlement and the (alleged in this case) con artists with their snouts in the FF trough.

Our taxpayers money given to FF buddies of FF top brass

As i said rotten to the very core

The company's treasurer, former Fianna Fail councillor Michael Maguire, is employed as a driver for Martin Mansergh, the Minister of State responsible for the Office of Public Works

D-Generate

According to the Bloomberg newswire,
(BN) *IRELAND'S BERTIE AHERN SAYS WOULD `FANCY' IRISH PRESIDENCY

I just vomited in my mouth a little. Sure its a ceremonial position but still...

Seth Brundle

hallelujajordan wrote: »

There is no doubt that this was a gaff on Bertie Ahern's part . . He spoke off-the-cuff, said something he should not have in the heat of the moment and apologised afterwards . . I think we have all done that at times . .

I've done a lot of public speaking. I've never told part of my audience to go and kill themselves. I've never made a slp of the tongue like that - it wouldn't occur to me.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

You could ignore me just because I don't believe you I suppose but then wheres the fun in associating always with people who agree with you?
Thats just as dead an end to discussion.

Speaking of ignoring people of the opposite opinion, I notice you ignored my post in response to your claims that bertie and ff did not mismanage the economy.
Funny that ?

Scofflaw wrote: »

This thread is generating slightly more heat than light now, and it would be nice if people stepped back a bit from metaphorically hitting their interlocutors with their handbags.

I have to say, with respect to the vexed question of whether one can believe another poster, that it is normal to take what is claimed with a grain of salt, even if that poster chooses to use their real name as their username. The internet provides multiple levels of anonymity - someone called Joe Murphy may indeed be called Joe Murphy, but actually that tells us very little - we do not know which Joe Murphy they are, and, short of an in-depth investigation, we cannot really whether Joe Murphy is depicting accurately all the facts and opinions he offers as his own, nor what agenda he might have in offering any particular set of facts or opinions. As a result, we cannot really judge Joe's level of honesty, and it is not in any sense unreasonable to take what they say of themselves with a grain of salt. Nor is it rude, since people vary not only in their honesty, but also in their ability to assess facts accurately - I certainly know people who are entirely honest, but quite capable of badly misrepresenting facts out of a lack of ability to assess them accurately and objectively.

Normally, it is regarded as polite to suspend disbelief unless the poster contradicts by their actions in the forum what they state in the forum - if I claimed in some post not to be a Green voter, for example, it would be perfectly reasonable to disbelieve me, and not really impolite to say so, since I clearly defend the Greens on many (but not all) issues.

About real-life matters, however, there's no real possibility of ascertaining whether a poster is telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That's not strictly even a function of the internet - it's the case whenever one attempts to judge anyone who one does not know well based purely on their self-reported word.

semi-moderately,
Scofflaw

The funny thing about this post was the only two people to thank it were the two ffers.

ffers thanking greens. :rolleyes:
It's a bit like how cowen et al are thanking gormless and the bunch for deflecting much of the blame off them for all the necessary additional taxes necessary to pay for the ff cockups.

semi-laughing semi crying,
jmayo a normal taxpayer

kuntboy wrote: »

The real tragedy here is that our political system allowed someone of Bertie's caliber to rise to the top. Even more tragic is that he will almost certainly get to be President.

No fffing way.
As Biggins rightly says there are enough of us out there to make the f***ers campaign as nasty as it needs to be to make the f***er never gets to put his sorry ar** in the Arás.

Biggins wrote: »

Don't bother next time but do tell him, instead of paying for his admittance ticket, maybe he should pay his taxes first - on time! Not years later...and the revenue commoners are still waiting...

And lets not forget to remind people that he only decided if the digouts were gifts or loans AFTER he consulted one of the most prominent tax consultants.

Biggins wrote: »

You really haven't seen me in action have you?
If I can tackle Harney on TV and radio, tackle the HSE on same and tackle many a politician face to face, in the Dail building and outside it, speak to the masses at rallies and yes, I have come face to face with Bertie too a number of times, I sure as hell and will, make sure the piece of low crap never gets elected as president!
...And again if that takes every door knocked to re-awaken the public, I'll buy a damn good pair of walking shoes.

Biggins, from recollection I believe we would agree that just alone on the point of the mess that ff/pds have made of our health system they should not be allowed anywhere near government.

The rest of the disasters just confirm my opinion of them.

You do know that Goerge Hook stated he would stand against bertie ?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Seriously, can you not see the contradiction in your own views ?

No, because.....

hallelujajordan wrote: »

On the one hand you expect me to take responsibility for the actions of and people within Fianna Fail, even those that I don't agree with or even voted against. You apply the principle of collective responsibility here and I have no problem with that. . .

Because you're a member, and because you defend those actions here on boards. Do you not get that ? YOU CHOOSE to be a member. You see the actions of Ahern and then you propose him as Taoiseach. Do you not get that ?

So in both cases you ARE partly responsible.

If you resigned in protest, or didn't make up stupid threads promoting con-men as Taoisigh, I would even partially dilute your culpability as an FF member.

However this thread is proof that yes, you are responsible, as is the fact that you don't want to punish FF by not voting for them next time.

So your responsibility even goes beyond being an FF voter or FF member.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The same principle applies at a national level. We as a people overspent . . yes you can argue that the government didn't control us and I would agree with you. I would also argue that had the government controlled us better we would have replaced them with one who would have allowed us to keep spending. We as a people overspent and now we have to pay it all back.

No, no, no. "we" only have to pay it back because of FF's decisions. So that cannot be used as the basis for your argument or definition of "we".

Where or what was this collective that you were on about prior to that ridiculous decision by FF ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

That does not mean that every single person overspent . . but collectively we did and collectively we are responsible.

Not every single person murders someone......are "we" collectively responsible for that, too ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Liam, whether or not you include babies, housewives, non-taxpayers etc in the definition of we as a people is up to you and i'm really not that interested in being dragged into a silly pedantic discussion . . . TBH, it's a red herring that you have introduced as an attempt to ridicule a perfectly reasonable concept . .

It's not a red herring, because YOU'RE the one who made up the "we as a people" and "we all" and "everyone"......so - since you claimed that's who's responsible - it's only natural for those who didn't invent this "collective responsibility" lark to ask where you draw the line with your redefinition.

And you refuse to answer, claiming "pedantics", even though you're the one who wants to redefine the definition "collective"; of COURSE we're down to pedantics when you're trying to do that!

Your argument is ridiculous, and you can neither justify the generic and collective "we" nor even define it.

So I'll ask YET again : who do you want to include and exclude from this "collective responsibility" ?

I know who the term should apply to; you're trying to include more.

So it's up to you to say EXACTLY who you think should be included.

And the fact is that thanks to FF even that baby born in 2010 will be paying for Ahern & FF's f**k ups when they retire.

But I guess that's FF's "Collective Responsibilty" for you........

bamboozle

As i understand, Bertie Ahern has still not received tax clearance certs from Revenue, if he is not considered tax compliant by this state can he even run for election as president?

Liam Byrne

bamboozle wrote: »

As i understand, Bertie Ahern has still not received tax clearance certs from Revenue, if he is not considered tax compliant by this state can he even run for election as president?

Given that you need one to be a TD, don't hold your breath.

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Reports/OtherReports/ReportsonTaxActsCompliance/DailEireann/Name,1421,en.htm