Bring Back Bertie ?

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you expand on that?
Apart from the builders who lost their jobs because supply outstripped demand and banks couldn't lend because they had no money due to irresponsible lending-what economic mismanagement specifically are you referring to ?

Well the part you quoted was a reference to Ahern's well-known suicide remarks, and the rest is well documented at this stage : basing day-to-day spending on one-off, capital-project taxes, egging on the bubble, tax breaks, partnership agreements and general waste on every single project undertaken (including the ego ones and the ridiculous ones).

Deleted User wrote: »

I say legally because nothing illegal has been proven..Alls thats been shown with him is sloppy finances unbecoming of a countries leader.

As Minister for Finance and as taoiseach. Sloppy finances at that level ? Gimme a break!

Deleted User wrote: »

But hey don't confuse that with the culpability of this nations greed.A human failing is in large part responsible for this mess.
We're all intelligent...it's just that we are stupid beyond belief at the same time in defence of our greed.

Some people might be alright, in their rush to blame everybody so that it looks like hammering everyone is somehow "fair". :mad:

If I ever do end up leaving, it'll be to get away from that lie. It sickens me.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Because British taxes are always put to noble and ethical use ? Did the expenses scandal in 2009 pass you by or do you just choose to ignore it ?

I wish people would quit the drama talk about leaving Ireland. I travel (a lot) and believe me the grass is not always greener !!

Of course the grass is fairly green for you right here since afterall you are a member of the party and are inside the tent pis**ng out on the rest of us.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Do you know how crazy that sentence sounds. Read it back to yourself. The World Economy took a downturn; several countries went (or almost went) bankrupt yet HE is the reason we are where we are ?

Nothing to do with the people who bought the houses (often multiple) that they couldn't afford with mortgages that were unsustainable ?

Ah we are all to blame. :rolleyes:
I can't wait to see you use that on the doorsteps at the next election.
Crazy thing is you actually might.

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you expand on that?
Apart from the builders who lost their jobs because supply outstripped demand and banks couldn't lend because they had no money due to irresponsible lending-what economic mismanagement specifically are you referring to ?

Well they allowed tax incentives like section 23 remain in place too long thus incentivising a property bubble.
They incentivised, through tax breaks for wealthy, the building of private nursing homes (which happened to be grossly unmonitored), hotels which are now shutting down and private hospitals.
They allowed property speculation that drove prices even higher for FTBs.

They increased public sector spending with added unneeded admin employees, numerous quangoes, increased salaries under benchmarking and increased dole at time when almost full employment.
All of trhe above are long term costs.

On the other side the increased spending was paid for by the increased transaction taxes gathered from retail spending and the construction bubble, both of which were dependent on cheap credit and were thus short term unsustainable resources.


Now how exactly would you term the above ?
Sound management of our economy ?
They were completely reckless and ignored any naysayers by telling them to go committ suicide.

Oh and that does not even add in the failures in the ever so expensive unresponsive/unresponsible HSE, the frauds in Fás, the overly expensive and delayed grand infastructure projects.

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's regulation,it mirrored and competed with standards in other countries as promoted by people as far back as Reagan ie lets have none of it.

True enough we have always had crap regulation in this country and long before Reagan years.
Hell Moore, Ken Bates and Patrick Gallagher had pulled scams in the banking industry and nothing was ever done to firm things up.
Hell the taxpayer paid for two of the messes, PMPA and AIB.

But the last 10 years were truly astounding for the complete f***up of the bank lending being ignored by the CB and IFSRA.
It was criminal negligence on an world wide scale.
Yet the guys in charge walk away with pensions and payoffs.

Deleted User wrote: »

The rest of it was just a microcosm in my view of what we do well in this country,perhaps better than most and that is greed.

As did Bertie incidently.Like Haughey he appears to have had a cunning ability to use his position to legally feather his own nest.
I say legally because nothing illegal has been proven..Alls thats been shown with him is sloppy finances unbecoming of a countries leader.

But hey don't confuse that with the culpability of this nations greed.A human failing is in large part responsible for this mess.
We're all intelligent...it's just that we are stupid beyond belief at the same time in defence of our greed.

Yes people were greedy but do not F***ING dare claim we all were.

Some people just tried to survive and even though I didn't agree with people buying property, I know some people who did because they just needed a home to raise a family and thanks to our cr** rental laws and the often scumbag nature of our landlord class they bought.

Now try and come up with a few more mantras to trott out for the gullible to excuse ff and it's scummy politicans.

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Do you know how crazy that sentence sounds. Read it back to yourself. The World Economy took a downturn; several countries went (or almost went) bankrupt yet HE is the reason we are where we are ?

Nothing to do with the people who bought the houses (often multiple) that they couldn't afford with mortgages that were unsustainable ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You are missing my point. The fact that we were willing to take out massive mortgages to pay for properties (or second properties!) in part drove the bubble that was going to burst regardless of whether or not they kept their jobs.

So the world economy and you and yours buying up houses around you caused the crash, (you say 'we' but I didn't so that's you and your pals.). You also state you and yours bought mortgages you couldn't afford which drove an economy which was going to burst job or no job. So the soft landing and buy property mantra of FFail was bull****. Thanks for the clarification. You're right they are at best liars.

So in closing; we were foolish to believe everything was rosey. Shouldn't look to how corruption is dealt with abroad because they are not much better? Kind of like the grass isn't greener stay in the manure.
Bertie being a minister of finance no less, not having a bank account and winning mysterious sums of money on the horses is okay. Callely resigning, you give credit to FFail, yet as with Bertie, and to take a leaf from the FFail Harry Potter book of logic, 'if Bertie Ivor was so corrupt why is he not charged by the law of the land?' It must be great to pick and choose points of moral fortitude when suitable. If Bertie was out of FFail tomorrow, you'd be on here blustering about how great FFail is for having gotten rid of such a corrupt individual. So your thread is a joke to yourself and others. Are all FFail folk completely mental? These are peoples well being, 'we' expect representation. This is not a fun back and forth game for non FFail members.

Laminations

This 'we are all to blame' tosh really needs to stop, yes some people got out of hand and greedy but the majority who bought houses did so because they felt they had to. Houses were rising in price and we were told the only way is up by government and the majority of the media. People wanted to get on the ladder (Irish people like owning their own place) and they felt they'd be left behind in a chaotic Market. The governments job was to manage the economy, to manage the boom and not feed the bubble, not let chaos reign. They did the latter, they incentivised mass development without any grasp of it's necessity - there are 300,000 extra houses out there. If individual behaviour gets out of hand and we get a mob-like mentality in the public, it is governments job to manage this.

They analogously allowed a mob to form and a riot to break out which sucked in innocent bystanders and those pushed by the tide and flow of the crowd. They encouraged this snowballing effect all the while never deploying the gardai to calm the situation.

We are all to blame:rolleyes:
There are 2000 people in NAMA, id hazard a guess at their political affiliations, remember that, 2000 out of a country of millions. Blame needs to be proportional, the buck stops at the Taoiseachs door

raymon

Bertie is rotten to the core

FF is rotten to the core

scr123

jmayo wrote: »

Of course the grass is fairly green for you right here since afterall you are a member of the party and are inside the tent pis**ng out on the rest of us.



Ah we are all to blame. :rolleyes:
I can't wait to see you use that on the doorsteps at the next election.
Crazy thing is you actually might.



Well they allowed tax incentives like section 23 remain in place too long thus incentivising a property bubble.
They incentivised, through tax breaks for wealthy, the building of private nursing homes (which happened to be grossly unmonitored), hotels which are now shutting down and private hospitals.
They allowed property speculation that drove prices even higher for FTBs.

They increased public sector spending with added unneeded admin employees, numerous quangoes, increased salaries under benchmarking and increased dole at time when almost full employment.
All of trhe above are long term costs.

On the other side the increased spending was paid for by the increased transaction taxes gathered from retail spending and the construction bubble, both of which were dependent on cheap credit and were thus short term unsustainable resources.


Now how exactly would you term the above ?
Sound management of our economy ?
They were completely reckless and ignored any naysayers by telling them to go committ suicide.

Oh and that does not even add in the failures in the ever so expensive unresponsive/unresponsible HSE, the frauds in Fás, the overly expensive and delayed grand infastructure projects.



True enough we have always had crap regulation in this country and long before Reagan years.
Hell Moore, Ken Bates and Patrick Gallagher had pulled scams in the banking industry and nothing was ever done to firm things up.
Hell the taxpayer paid for two of the messes, PMPA and AIB.

But the last 10 years were truly astounding for the complete f***up of the bank lending being ignored by the CB and IFSRA.
It was criminal negligence on an world wide scale.
Yet the guys in charge walk away with pensions and payoffs.



Yes people were greedy but do not F***ING dare claim we all were.

Some people just tried to survive and even though I didn't agree with people buying property, I know some people who did because they just needed a home to raise a family and thanks to our cr** rental laws and the often scumbag nature of our landlord class they bought.

Now try and come up with a few more mantras to trott out for the gullible to excuse ff and it's scummy politicans.

Talking about scummy FF politicians reminds me of the scummy politicians in FG and Labour who have cost the taxpayer billions at this stage in wages and expenses over the last few decades. They have lost the last 6 elections in a row and have not won an election since 1982. They spend their miserable lives blasting FF but their warped stupid minds cannot recognise the simple fact that the reason FF are in power so often is a direct result of their own failure to convince the Irish people of their suitability to govern. Its time FG and Labour shut down their useless organisations and let others come together to form an opposition to FF and give this country an alternate government. The lack of policies from these discredited organisations is only matched by their lack of acknowledgement of their failures.
Instead of debating a bring back Bertie notion FG and Labour should be studying how the same Bertie won 3 elections in a row !!

maynooth_rules

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Now you are just dragging this even further off topic. I think you and I can both agree that we deserve to have a fair and ethical political system in Ireland with competent and accountable politicians regardless of what exists in other countries.

However, if maynooth rules is ready to declare how happy he is to be leaving our (corrupt) state to pay taxes to the (presumably non corrupt) UK state, then someone should point out the obvious to him.

Corruption is punished in the UK, corruption is a part of the make up of Fianna Fail and is ingrained into the party. I don't have to justify why I will be happy to pay my taxes in a foreign land after spending 4 years here being educated. My skills will actually be appreciated in the UK, here I have to put up with people who have retired and are on pensions, being called in ahead of me and the department of Education doing nothing whatsoever about it. Enjoy your FF government, and keep pulling the wool over your eyes if you like. I think going by your replies to all the messages here that nobody is going to change your opinion no matter what facts are put forward to you. Each to their own i guess

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

Bertie is rotten to the core

FF is rotten to the core

Thank you for that useful contribution to the debate. .

Laminations wrote: »

This 'we are all to blame' tosh really needs to stop, yes some people got out of hand and greedy but the majority who bought houses did so because they felt they had to. Houses were rising in price and we were told the only way is up by government and the majority of the media. People wanted to get on the ladder (Irish people like owning their own place) and they felt they'd be left behind in a chaotic Market. The governments job was to manage the economy, to manage the boom and not feed the bubble, not let chaos reign. They did the latter, they incentivised mass development without any grasp of it's necessity - there are 300,000 extra houses out there. If individual behaviour gets out of hand and we get a mob-like mentality in the public, it is governments job to manage this.

Let me be clear about the concept of "we-are-all-to-blame" . . . It's really easy for me (and lots of you) to come on here and say "I never overstreched myself / I didn't buy a house / I don't have a 100% mortgage" . . put the principle of collective responsibility has to apply and in this case it applies in two areas . .

We take collective responsibility for the fact that we as a nation drove the housing market out of control . . my mortgage is less than 60% of the value of my house but at the same time I know several people who own 2 houses (in some cases 3) bought on interest-only mortgages and rented to the migrant workers who were building them. . I suspect we all know some of these people (even if you won't admit it!) . . and they are not wealthy developers; they are regular people who got carried away by their own greed. Incidentally, of those people I know . . . none of them are FF supporters and all of them now blame FF for allowing them to get into this mess

We take collective responsibility for the mandate we give our governments. You have to look at FF performance in elections during the boom years. Then you have to look at the alternative policies being put forward by the opposition (or lack of!) Policies are driven in some part by an analysis of what the electorate want so you can only conclude that we got what we wanted during this period. . . To wash our hands of that and blame those who you call rank-and-file Fianna Fail is a little disengenuous. Truth is, anyone who voted FG,FF,LAB,PD,GREENS over the last 20 years got more or less what they asked for !

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

So in closing; we were foolish to believe everything was rosey. Shouldn't look to how corruption is dealt with abroad because they are not much better? Kind of like the grass isn't greener stay in the manure.
Bertie being a minister of finance no less, not having a bank account and winning mysterious sums of money on the horses is okay. Callely resigning, you give credit to FFail, yet as with Bertie, and to take a leaf from the FFail Harry Potter book of logic, 'if Bertie Ivor was so corrupt why is he not charged by the law of the land?' It must be great to pick and choose points of moral fortitude when suitable. If Bertie was out of FFail tomorrow, you'd be on here blustering about how great FFail is for having gotten rid of such a corrupt individual. So your thread is a joke to yourself and others. Are all FFail folk completely mental? These are peoples well being, 'we' expect representation. This is not a fun back and forth game for non FFail members.

I never suggested that we shouldn't look to how corruption is dealt with abroad so please don't misquote me . . what I am saying is that if you believe that Ireland is unique and if you want to pay taxes to another state and hold that state up as an fair-minded, non-corrupt, ethical politics then you better get your facts straight . .

And yes if the tribunal finds that Bertie Ahern acted inappropriately and if Bertie Ahern is fired from Fianna Fail (or forced to resign, for those who believe that there is a difference:rolleyes:) then yes, I will 'bluster' about how great FF are for having gotten rid of him because I will have been one of those within FF calling for his resignation.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We take collective responsibility for the mandate we give our governments.

Even those of us who didn't give it that mandate ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Truth is, anyone who voted FG,FF,LAB,PD,GREENS over the last 20 years got more or less what they asked for !

Incorrect. I gave the Greens a vote on the basis that they wouldn't go in with FF, and on their stance on Shannon. They fudged those promises. So they refused to accept the mandate that they had requested from me.

When I started to object to ridiculous phrases like "the property ladder" and other property-related headed-for-disaster concepts, your beloved Ahern told me that I was pessimistic and should commit suicide.

How does that involve me giving him a "mandate" ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I will 'bluster' about how great FF are for having gotten rid of him because I will have been one of those within FF calling for his resignation.

Sorry ? You started a thread about his re-instatement as Taoiseach. Whether or not he did anything illegal, his actions were unacceptable, and you have defended those actions here and elsewhere.

Do you only object to unacceptable actions when people get caught ? Or when they're explicitly illegal ? What about things that should be illegal - like former Taoisigh dossing off at our expense in state cars to promote their books written during "sick leave", or speak at paid engagements - except those in power like the status quo so that they can claim "they did nothing illegal" ?

hallelujajordan

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Corruption is punished in the UK, corruption is a part of the make up of Fianna Fail and is ingrained into the party.

I'm not sure that the facts (if you look into them) support either side of that analysis . .

I don't have to justify why I will be happy to pay my taxes in a foreign land after spending 4 years here being educated.

You don't and I wish you luck as you embark on your adventure. . For what its worth I embarked on a similar adventure at a similar time in my life, also to the UK and I can tell you from personal experience that the grass was not any greener, nor the politics any less corrupt. .

And while you don't have to justify your happiness, if you are going to hold the UK state up as a bastion of ethical politics, then you ought to get your facts straight first . .

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Even those of us who didn't give it that mandate ?

Yes, that is called democracy . .

Sorry ? You started a thread about his re-instatement as Taoiseach. Whether or not he did anything illegal, his actions were unacceptable, and you have defended those actions here and elsewhere.

Do you only object to unacceptable actions when people get caught ?

Look, we don't agree on this. . I have read the evidence against Bertie Ahern and I don't believe any of his actions were corrupt . . my point is that if the tribunal that he established draws a different conclusion then I and all within FF will be forced to reevaluate that position. . If the tribunal find that he has no case to answer then I think my position is vindicated (as I have said before)

Either way, I would not support any move to bring back Bertie until after the tribunal reports its findings.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Incorrect. I gave the Greens a vote on the basis that they wouldn't go in with FF, and on their stance on Shannon. They fudged those promises. So they refused to accept the mandate that they had requested from me.

Actually it isn't incorrect. . I presume you felt that the Greens would stand by their word and instead form a coalition with FG / LAB . . In voting Green you were tacitly supporting Fine Gael economic policy which was no different to FF policy at the time.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yes, that is called democracy . .

So if, say, FF decided to invade Iraq, and I objected and was ridiculed, I am still somehow to blame and am complicit in their actions ?

Your version of democracy seems to delegate and deflect accountability when it suits.

I don't recall FF sharing the credit for things with everyone when they thought they had a "boom getting boomier"......they claimed that it was all their doing.

Now they want to disclaim responsibility and claim that we are all to blame - even those who didn't vote for them, didn't get greedy, didn't buy in to the fiasco and didn't want it, and didn't gain from it.

Laughable.

Of course, if Ahern had his way, I'd be six feet under by now, because he didn't want to hear / face the truth.

Some mandate! :rolleyes:

oceanclub

Worst troll ever.

P.

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We take collective responsibility for the fact that we as a nation drove the housing market out of control . .

The government had control of the brakes and never bothered to apply them, their mantra was pedal to the metal, brakes are for quitters, quitters commit suicide

We take collective responsibility for the mandate we give our governments.

let me explain how a magic trick works. Everyone is tricked until they know how it is done. The bubble was an illusion, FF managing the economy was an illusion. Their house of cards only really fell apart after 2007 and now we have seen how badly they were actually managing things. Nobody is fooled any more, well I say nobody but it's obvious there are still fools about. FF were never given a mandate to mismanage and wreck this country.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So if, say, FF decided to invade Iraq, and I objected and was ridiculed, I am still somehow to blame and am complicit in their actions ?

No, but good example . .

If FF went to the country with a manifesto that declared they were going to invade Iraq, and if the country elected them then of course the country would take collective responsibility for invading Iraq.

Of course, if Ahern had his way, I'd be six feet under by now, because he didn't want to hear / face the truth.

nonsense and its really starting to irritate me how you misquote the suicide comment. . For the record (for the nth time) Ahern did not tell you or anyone else to commit suicide. He said (and I paraphrase) he did not understand how those people who were so negative about the economy were not driven by this negativity into a suicidal state. .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

nonsense and its really starting to irritate me how you misquote the suicide comment. . For the record (for the nth time) Ahern did not tell you or anyone else to commit suicide. He said (and I paraphrase) he did not understand how those people who were so negative about the economy were not driven by this negativity into a suicidal state. .

I have been damn careful not to phrase it to suggest that he said we should commit suicide, so you can retract that misquote claim.

His "understanding" was that I and others should commit suicide. Even though we weren't being negative at all - we were being 100% realistic. But that didn't suit his agenda, so he chose to ignore the facts.

Mind you, having read your paraphrase maybe I should ease up on him; if he didn't understand economics and didn't understand that blank cheques and brown envelopes were wrong, maybe he's just incapable of understanding reality.

As for irritation, well right back at you re your continued stance that I am in any way responsible for the mess that Ireland is in. I'm not. Unlike some of your fellow FF apologists, my conscience is 100% clear (and not in a Callelly & Ahern-style deluded fashion).

oceanclub

Can anyone explain to me how I waive responsibility for the actions of a political party I have never once voted for in my life? Apart from shooting even member of the cabinet? (Don't give me an excuse).

For the record (for the nth time) Ahern did not tell you or anyone else to commit suicide. He said (and I paraphrase) he did not understand how those people who were so negative about the economy were not driven by this negativity into a suicidal state. .

Of course, in BertieWorld, "negative" was "realistic". As for the quote, there's a certain irony when suicide figures in 2009 increased 25%. Even if you explain away Bertie being offensive, he still comes across as complacent.

P.

Laminations

It's ironic that FFs say 'it's your fault for voting for them' referring to 2002 and 2007 as if to say 'more the fool you' but in those years the house of cards was standing, people were fooled by the illusion. The irony comes when these FFers still advocate a vote for FF after the curtain had been pulled back and the clowns revealed. Voters may have had a reasonable excuse for electing FF previously, they were fooled, those who continue to support the party are however blissfully wallowing in their own foolishness

In the past decade only the fooled voted FF.
In the next only the fools will

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I have been damn careful not to phrase it to suggest that he said we should commit suicide, so you can retract that misquote claim.

His "understanding" was that I and others should commit suicide. Even though we weren't being negative at all - we were being 100% realistic. But that didn't suit his agenda, so he chose to ignore the facts.

Mind you, having read your paraphrase maybe I should ease up on him; if he didn't understand economics and didn't understand that blank cheques and brown envelopes were wrong, maybe he's just incapable of understanding reality.

As for irritation, well right back at you re your continued stance that I am in any way responsible for the mess that Ireland is in. I'm not. Unlike some of your fellow FF apologists, my conscience is 100% clear (and not in a Callelly & Ahern-style deluded fashion).

Liam, i accept that you personally are in no way responsible . . but that does not mean that we as a country are not collectively responsible . . we have debated this many times on here and we won't agree . . . I'm not trying to minimise FF's responsibility I simply believe that if we blame FF (or any government) for the mess we are in and refuse to accept our own (the country - not you) culpability then we will inevitably make the same mistakes again.

caseyann

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Liam, i accept that you personally are in no way responsible . . but that does not mean that we as a country are not collectively responsible . . we have debated this many times on here and we won't agree . . . I'm not trying to minimise FF's responsibility I simply believe that if we blame FF (or any government) for the mess we are in and refuse to accept our own (the country - not you) culpability then we will inevitably make the same mistakes again.

The decision were made by FF that led the country into the mess it is in now.It wasn't voted on and Irish public do not over see their decisions.
They are given the power to make the decisions for the country and the people.They wrecked it,therefore they are to blame.Irish people and others who voted FF back in are also partly to blame. I would have had them out of power 8 years ago.

25 billon costing the tax payer to save anglo?

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

It's ironic that FFs say 'it's your fault for voting for them' referring to 2002 and 2007 as if to say 'more the fool you' but in those years the house of cards was standing, people were fooled by the illusion. The irony comes when these FFers still advocate a vote for FF after the curtain had been pulled back and the clowns revealed. Voters may have had a reasonable excuse for electing FF previously, they were fooled, those who continue to support the party are however blissfully wallowing in their own foolishness

In the past decade only the fooled voted FF.
In the next only the fools will

Wow . . seriously misquoted there ! I never said "it's your fault for voting for them" . . What I said was that FF presented a manifesto, FG presented a manifesto . . neither was very different economically and one of the two were always going to be the primary governing party. . The vast majority of the country supported one or the other of these manifestos. Had either party been successful in 2002 or 2007 we would be where we are today . .

btw, I realise this is somewhat speculative but if you want to challenge it, point me to some fundamental differences in the economic policies of the two leading parties over the past 10 years.

oceanclub

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not trying to minimise FF's responsibility I simply believe that if we blame FF (or any government) for the mess we are in and refuse to accept our own (the country - not you) culpability then we will inevitably make the same mistakes again.

I like the way you pile paranthesis upon conditions in order to make this rubbish more palatable.

P.

hallelujajordan

oceanclub wrote: »

I like the way you pile paranthesis upon conditions in order to make this rubbish more palatable.

P.

I use parenthesis to try to make my points clearer and to avoid being misquoted or taken out of context. . not to be any more palatable . .

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I use parenthesis to try to make my points clearer and to avoid being misquoted or taken out of context. . not to be any more palatable . .

I do not find your posts clear (or palatable)

In any case : here is a reminder of why Bertie resigned ( only one of about 12 irregularities in his finances)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tQN6H_tVY

The man is an old corrupt politician - who wrote blank cheques to bankroll Charlie

scr123

Laminations wrote: »

It's ironic that FFs say 'it's your fault for voting for them' referring to 2002 and 2007 as if to say 'more the fool you' but in those years the house of cards was standing, people were fooled by the illusion. The irony comes when these FFers still advocate a vote for FF after the curtain had been pulled back and the clowns revealed. Voters may have had a reasonable excuse for electing FF previously, they were fooled, those who continue to support the party are however blissfully wallowing in their own foolishness

In the past decade only the fooled voted FF.
In the next only the fools will

In 2007 850000 people voted FF, 25% of the electorate and they are fools ? The 75% of the electorate who did not vote FF are the brains of the nation ? A most peculiar outcome but being a fool I leave it to the people with brains to explain

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Liam, i accept that you personally are in no way responsible . . but that does not mean that we as a country are not collectively responsible

That would be fine if I were unique, but I'm not.

A majority of this country voted NOT to put FF back in power; that included many who voted Greens. I can only speak personally, but I know that if I'd had an inkling that the Greens would go in with FF then I wouldn't have even given them a preference.

Why ? Because I saw the damage that FF have done. As did others. Those that your beloved Ahern dismissed as pessimists. And yet you have the gall to suggest that he be put back in as Taoiseach ? Why ? So that when we point out the errors of his ways that he can publicly wonder why we don't commit suicide again ?

How can almost 50% of the country be "collectively responsible" for actions that the other 50% did (both voting for FF and buying into their "boomier boom" fantasy) ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm not trying to minimise FF's responsibility I simply believe that if we blame FF (or any government) for the mess we are in and refuse to accept our own (the country - not you) culpability then we will inevitably make the same mistakes again.

Those who voted for FF are culpable - to a point. Although I don't remember FF's manifesto including any promises to bail out Anglo to the tune of €40 billion, so I cannot see how even those voters are 100% culpable. I'm disgusted that they did, but I'll be fair and acknowledge that even they didn't know what FF would do that wasn't on the manifesto, in the same way that I gave the Greens a preference and they proceeded to do the opposite to the reasons why I'd voted for them.

As for "inevitably making the same mistakes again", are you suggesting that we should learn from those mistakes and not vote FF ?

How, pray tell, do those of us not responsible ensure that those responsible (and therefore putting collective responsibility on us who weren't) learn from their mistakes ?

Callan57

Look what they've done to my country

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How can almost 50% of the country be "collectively responsible" for actions that the other 50% did (both voting for FF and buying into their "boomier boom" fantasy) ?

That's an interesting way of looking at it . . . So, only 50% of people bought into the boom and they are the same 50% of people who voted FF . . I doubt you really believe that but nevertheless as I've challenged before . . point me toward the alternative Fine Gael economic policies that you were tacitly supporting when you voted Green in 2007 ?

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

I do not find your posts clear (or palatable)

In any case : here is a reminder of why Bertie resigned ( only one of about 12 irregularities in his finances)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6tQN6H_tVY

The man is an old corrupt politician - who wrote blank cheques to bankroll Charlie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption

Do we really need to go down that road again . .

Political corruption is the use of legislated powers by government officials for illegitimate private gain.

If you can give me one clear example of corruption on Aherns part that satisfies these criteria then I will accept the charge and allow you to use the term unchallenged. .