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The Great AH Census of Religion

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    #362
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Why don't you?

    I do.


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    #363
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    My name is URL wrote: »
    That's deep man.. I take it that you've observed all of the science that dictates what those telling you about it have witnessed?

    Nope, and neither have many of those I got it from.The reasoning behind has been presented to me and in each case I consider it and either reject or accept it, using the faculties available to me.There are some things I have only the most elementary grasp of, others I can't even broach,and others I have a sound knowledge of including practical research and observation on them.

    I do not claim to be the net Tesla or Einstein.I understand what I can grasp through reason.It's not as if I'm just jumping up claiming the veracity of a bundle of incongruous parchments as the direct word of god with my 'faith' as the evidence.


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    #364
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    SV wrote: »
    Why do militant atheists always come across like complete ássholes?

    Because being right is more important than being nice.


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    #365
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zillah wrote: »
    Because being right is more important than being nice.

    Whether you actually are right, is questionable though.


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    #366
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    I do.

    lol, no you don't. You're probably the most self assured and argumentative anti-theist on this site. You purposely created this thread under false pretense to stir the pot of disagreement and big yerself up as some sort of scientifically appointed zealot

    and so are the others who are preaching against the preachers


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    #367
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    But atheism is winning at long last.Having posted in threads on these matters for years now, this is the first time I've ever felt so encouraged by one.

    The poll is close to a 3/1 split in favour of common sense.This is in my experience is unprecedented.

    I am of course assuming that AH is an accurate cross section of Irish society and not a statistically disproportionate den of atheism.

    It shows that Irish people are starting to think for themselves and to tear down the barricades around truth and rationality.Long may it continue.

    As for those in the new minority, does this poll change anything for you?Or do you find it emboldens your stance?

    As a child,I believed in god so as to fit in.Though I was an atheist by around 12, I was always too intimidated to question anything to do with god.But as I met more and more atheists, I was emboldened and began to ask out loud the questions in my head, none of which have ever been answered with anything but waffle.

    How small would your minority have to be before you reconsidered your position?

    (my emphasis added)

    I have enjoyed reading this thread so far without feeling the need to contribute, but the sheer smugness coming from the above post made me reply.

    The views espoused by some of the contributors here that this is some sort of simple contest or competition between theism and atheism really does an injustice to the topic being debated.

    Your belittling of any view other than atheism as being against "common sense" and insinuation that those with theistic beliefs might alter there beliefs based on the results of a poll really say a lot about you as a poster. Of all the posts in this thread, this one is a real display of ignorance.


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    #368
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Whether you actually are right, is questionable though.

    No it isn't. We can spend another thousand pages exploring why that is the case if you like, but you've not been convinced in the past, I scarely believe you'll be persuaded this time.


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    #369
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    raah! wrote: »
    That's what I was referencing.

    But ignore that edit, just respond to the arguments about free will please. I already know the answer, as it's a direct logical implication, and so should you really, if you "choose to use logic".

    What's the point in responding if you already know the answer?This is the classic attempt at trying to bring your opponent to a stalemate inorder to label it your victory.I'm not that silly.

    I'll let the others either support or challenge my stance but I'm not taking your bait.Nice try.


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    #370
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Zillah wrote: »
    No it isn't. We can spend another thousand pages exploring why that is the case if you like, but you've not been convinced in the past, I scarely believe you'll be persuaded this time.

    May I remind you, that I was an agnostic for a number of years before coming to my current conclusion.


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    #371
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    My name is URL wrote: »
    lol, no you don't. You're probably the most self assured and argumentative anti-theist on this site. You purposely created this thread under false pretense to stir the pot of disagreement and big yerself up as some sort of scientifically appointed zealot

    and so are the others who are preaching against the preachers
    I don't claim to know how the universe came about. If you can quote me saying otherwise I'd be grateful.

    This thread was not started under false pretenses, if I did that I would have been argumentative from the start. I started it because I wanted to see the results of the poll, believe otherwise all you want.


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    #372
    landsleaving
    Registered Users Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭landsleaving


    Zillah wrote: »
    Because being right is more important than being nice.

    Not really, being nice isn't going to lead to conflict, whereas assuming one is right creates a justification for it.

    Is that not the problem with religion? That they assume they're right and force their views on others, which has, i suppose, caused wars and death and all that? Or is the point of all debate on the matter just to enforce the same views on everyone else in the assumption that science is better?

    I'd rather be nice, then I can get along with people of different opinions to my own, instead of being isolated from any community besides that which echoes my opinions on everything. What a wonderful world it could be if everyone just did that?

    I swear I thought originally people hated religion because it caused wars, or whatever? No? Then what makes you any better than religious people?

    Or were you joking and all the seriuousness in here is just blowing my mind? :pac:


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    #373
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    penguin88 wrote: »
    (my emphasis added)

    I have enjoyed reading this thread so far without feeling the need to contribute, but the sheer smugness coming from the above post made me reply.

    The views espoused by some of the contributors here that this is some sort of simple contest or competition between theism and atheism really does an injustice to the topic being debated.

    Your belittling of any view other than atheism as being against "common sense" and insinuation that those with theistic beliefs might alter there beliefs based on the results of a poll really say a lot about you as a poster. Of all the posts in this thread, this one is a real display of ignorance.

    I'm getting the strangest feeling that people who use the internet are more likely to be atheist/agnostic. It's just a trend I've noticed. Boards.ie, youtube, blogtv are just some popular sites that I use regularly that seem to typify this trend. Of course, this pattern doesn't really do justice to the real world but it's interesting to note nonetheless. Perhaps many people in the real world are 'closeted' atheists and don't like to express their views on the topic publically and indiscreetly? Discuss.


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    #374
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    Zillah wrote: »
    Because being right is more important than being nice.

    No it isn't.
    That is quite a sad opinion to hold.


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    #375
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    landsleaving wrote: »
    Is that not the problem with religion? That they assume they're right and force their views on others

    The problem with religion is that they're wrong. Doesn't matter if they think they're right.
    Or were you joking and all the seriuousness in here is just blowing my mind? :pac:

    Within the context of posting on the internet, yes, I am absolutely serious. Anyway, everyone thinks they're right. The fact that some people don't bother to engage in the theological question doesn't make them better or wiser...it just makes them irrelevant.


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    #376
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    SV wrote: »
    No it isn't.

    Yes it is.

    You people know what a subjective opinion is, right?


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    #377
    raah!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    What's the point in responding if you already know the answer?This is the classic attempt at trying to bring your opponent to a stalemate inorder to label it your victory.I'm not that silly.

    I'll let the others either support or challenge my stance but I'm not taking your bait.Nice try.
    None of this post means anything. Anyway, stop pretending to be a master of reason and logic. Stop pretending to be a scientist. And stop pretending to have such a strong position if you are not able to answer those questions.

    Saying materialism doesn't imply determinism shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

    I'll let the people capable of actual thought respond to my criticisms of materialism.

    (It's really hard not to adopt this tone when speaking to people like this. At the back of my head there is always the shameful suggestion that I'm getting all worked up in an argument with someone who might be 14 or something)


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    #378
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    penguin88 wrote: »
    (my emphasis added)

    I have enjoyed reading this thread so far without feeling the need to contribute, but the sheer smugness coming from the above post made me reply.

    The views espoused by some of the contributors here that this is some sort of simple contest or competition between theism and atheism really does an injustice to the topic being debated.

    Your belittling of any view other than atheism as being against "common sense" and insinuation that those with theistic beliefs might alter there beliefs based on the results of a poll really say a lot about you as a poster. Of all the posts in this thread, this one is a real display of ignorance.

    I suppose smug is what you could call it.If smug means being at ease with my sense of reasoning and the honesty of my position, then you can call me Smuggles.

    The ignorance is all yours.What have you brought to this thread but a rebuke with no substance.

    By common sense, I mean to infer logic.It is illogical to believe in an omniscient omnipotent infallible and benevolent higher power.

    If god is all that why do good people die in misery and agony,deprived of love and dignity?And don't say it's mans fault.Such a god could end it with a whim.Such is not his fancy.

    Cheers for the scolding


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    #379
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    Zillah wrote: »
    Yes it is.

    You people know what a subjective opinion is, right?

    Yes, it's one you hold.


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    #380
    jfrmbray
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭jfrmbray


    The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting **** dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die.

    -Bill Maher(Religulous-2008)


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    #381
    King Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭King Felix


    jfrmbray wrote: »
    The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting **** dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die.

    -Bill Maher(Religulous-2008)

    Or...'Belief is the death of intelligence'. (applies to both theists and athiests)


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    #382
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    penguin88 wrote: »
    Of all the posts in this thread, this one is a real display of ignorance.

    I'd like to take this moment to address one of my pet peeves.

    The word ignorance has two main uses:
    1 - Lacking knowledge, information or understanding.
    2 - Rude, mean, uncouth.

    The second one is clearly derived from one having ignorance of social mores. Now, lets look at this scenario:

    Atheist: Your argument is flawed, your position is one of ignorance!
    Poster 2: You are being mean, so it is you who is displaying true ignorance!

    Now, both posters are using the same word, but with an entirely different meaning. Poster2 here clearly thinks he's being terribly clever by turning the word 'ignorant' back on him there, but in fact all he's doing is whining that the mean atheist is being mean.


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    #383
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    SV wrote: »
    Yes, it's one you hold.

    wow the standard is plummeting :mad:


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    #384
    Des Carter
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭Des Carter


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Do you say ''God'' did it for everything else you don't understand?

    no Im just asking the question who/what started the process of evolution?


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    #385
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    SV wrote: »
    Yes, it's one you hold.

    Technically it's one that one holds.


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    #386
    landsleaving
    Registered Users Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭landsleaving


    Zillah wrote: »
    The problem with religion is that they're wrong. Doesn't matter if they think they're right.


    I just don't agree with that at all. The only time I have a problem with religion is when their views are forced on me, or used for evil in wars or acts of violence and aggression. Otherwise, live and let live.


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    #387
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Zillah wrote: »
    I'd like to take this moment to address one of my pet peeves.

    The word ignorance has two main uses:
    1 - Lacking knowledge, information or understanding.
    2 - Rude, mean, uncouth.

    The second one is clearly derived from one having ignorance of social mores. Now, lets look at this scenario:

    Atheist: Your argument is flawed, your position is one of ignorance!
    Poster 2: You are being mean, so it is you who is displaying true ignorance!

    Now, both posters are using the same word, but with an entirely different meaning. Poster2 here clearly thinks he's being terribly clever by turning the word 'ignorant' back on him there, but in fact all he's doing is whining that the mean atheist is being mean.


    Brace yourself!! You know what you're going to be crucified for, don't you?:D


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    #388
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Des Carter wrote: »
    no Im just asking the question who/what started the process of evolution?

    Evolution started with life. As to how life began, we're still working on it. There are a few different theories, and some experiments have shown us ways that it could have happened, but you need to bear in mind what that question really is about. We're trying to work out what a few molecules were doing in a pool of water in an unknown location about four and a half billion years ago.

    Biogenesis (the begining of life) and evolution (how life changes over time) are two related, but very different, topics.


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    #389
    Burning Eclipse
    Registered Users Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭Burning Eclipse


    Zillah wrote: »
    Because being right is more important than being nice.

    Why assume the pair are mutually exclusive? Most people can be right and nice simultaneously.

    I'm 6 on that scale. It's not a decision I made, so to speak. It was made for me by the lack of any sort of tangible evidence. That settles the God element.

    Moreover, if you choose to look at the Bible in a certain manner you can see the foundations for marketing right there. I know it's very cynical, but honestly, it ticks all the boxes. For that reason (among others) organised religion appeals to me even less than the idea of a deity.

    For me, belief in a higher power will never be based on any substance, but is entirely on faith. But why have that faith, and where does it come from? Why have faith in an Abrahamic god as opposed to another?

    As for this debate, I agree with landsleavings post in certain respects, but wouldn't go as far as saying I side with the religious. At the same time, I genuinely believe that the religious side of these debates is more respectable in their interactions with athiest than the atheists are with them (in general).


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    #390
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Brace yourself!! You know what you're going to be crucified for, don't you?:D

    I presume there's a typo in there maybe. Doesn't matter, my point is about a flawed argument, not grammar/spelling pedantry.
    Burning Eclipse wrote: »
    Why assume the pair are mutually exclusive? Most people can be right and nice simultaneously.

    Oh yes, absolutely! But when there is a conflict...


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    #391
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Zillah wrote: »
    Evolution started with life. As to how life began, we're still working on it. There are a few different theories, and some experiments have shown us ways that it could have happened, .

    The important term is could.Believers are telling us how it did happen.

    You guys know the answer.

    We're speculating.

    If your certainty is justified our speculation is a total waste of time.We are the biggest wasters on the planet if you guys are definitley right and we are completely wrong.

    Hopefully I won't live to see it.


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