Street Fighter X Tekken is for REAL!

GorySnake

It's not always dangerous to do but its not a free out either that some people seem to make it out to be since some characters have setups to position themselves for a crossover mixup and still be within range if they dont roll.

Also some characters have great ways of dealing with roll in the corner, for example after a throw in the corner Jin can do MP fireball and then walk back a step, if they roll they have to guess 50/50 on the crossover mixup, it's impossible to react, or they just sit there and block the meaty fireball which leaves you at frame advantage (or they take the hit and eat 300+ damage juggle). Other characters can stop rolls completely with corpse hops in the corner.

It cant be disputed that oki is weaker in this game than something like SF4 but that's the point in roll, since a lot of people are starting to criticize the way SF4 is leading towards hard knockdown into 50/50's and unblockables.

Rob2D

Dreddybajs wrote: »

How is it dangerous to do? It's not punishable. Sometimes you might put yourself in an awkward crossup situation but they still have to guess to do that right? And there'd be much more dangerous oki options if you couldn't.

Rolls are crazy dangerous. If I'm playing a guy who likes to roll, I'll jump back a lot on his wake up or try to bait them out so he rolls toward me. I suppose as a Jin player I don't have to worry about what side I land on for my bnb though.

Now I only use it sparingly and never in obvious places. But you'll come across guys who have a great knack for baiting them and you end up doing it even when you don't want to.

I have rolled to my death many times!

Mostly I'll just stay on the ground and block because I know a meaty is incoming and I can't beat it. Also, because throws have such short range, you don't have to worry about teching as much.

You seem to think its a free escape and maybe it is the first couple times. But when the other guy catches on then you can't do it anymore because you'll just eat a 50% combo.

Well that's what I think anyway. I am an awful scrub though :pac:

Rob2D

GorySnake wrote: »

Also some characters have great ways of dealing with roll in the corner, for example after a throw in the corner Jin can do MP fireball and then walk back a step, if they roll they have to guess 50/50 on the crossover mixup, it's impossible to react, or they just sit there and block the meaty fireball which leaves you at frame advantage (or they take the hit and eat 300+ damage juggle)

Another thing I like to do after a corner knockdown is jump back. If they roll, you catch them. If they stay put you can fireball. If they try jump out you can CDS kick them for full corner juggle. If they tag out you can CDS dash punch the incoming character and then rinse and repeat or try something new.

Its great, I find it shuts down a lot of their options.

Dreddybajs

If rolls lead to people who have you knocked down jumping backwards away from them I really just don't understand how they're that bad.

I understand there are situations like Gory are talking about where you can still get pressure, but it seems like a lot of the time there aren't.

I don't think there was any logic behind them other than "Tekken has rolls so put in rolls" judging by how **** the game is in general.

If they didn't want there to be unblockables etc., why not just remove the unblockables when they're found?

Rob2D

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Speaking of, did they fix that glitch with Guile's alpha counter?

I just checked there for you Doom and it seems they did not. Its still there.

chopperbyrne

It's not people jumping away from you when you roll.

It's reading that someone will roll and instead of applying regular wakeup pressure, jumping back. They'll roll right into your jumping attack putting them in a 50/50 mixup that if they guess wrong leads to a big punish as you've landed a deep jumpin.

EDIT: Obviously there will be times you read wrong and jump back leaving them with a free wakeup, but it's like any other pressure game, train them to defend against one thing and then mix up with another.

Dreddybajs

chopperbyrne wrote: »

It's not people jumping away from you when you roll.

It's reading that someone will roll and instead of applying regular wakeup pressure, jumping back. They'll roll right into your jumping attack putting them in a 50/50 mixup that if they guess wrong leads to a big punish as you've landed a deep jumpin.

Yeah and if they don't roll then you jump away from them and give your pressure up which is ****ing retarded. That's my point.

Rob2D

chopperbyrne wrote: »

They'll roll right into your jumping attack putting them in a 50/50 mixup that if they guess wrong leads to a big punish as you've landed a deep jumpin.

Throwing a roll works pretty good too.

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Yeah and if they don't roll then you jump away from them and give your pressure up which is ****ing retarded. That's my point.

You seem to think of it as giving up pressure, where as I see it as trying to keep the pressure on them.

Now obviously you're not going to fish for it all the time. But if you think they're the type of person who likes to roll, or you're getting tons of knockdowns on them,them its worth throwing it out every now and again.

Its a gamble of a thing. You might get it, you might not. But if you do then happy days:)

Dreddybajs

Rob2D wrote: »

You seem to think of it as giving up pressure, where as I see it as trying to keep the pressure on them.

This is the whole thing, you just knocked them down, you shouldn't have to do anything to keep the pressure on them before they get up. That's the whole advantage behind getting a knockdown ffs. :pac:

Rob2D

Dreddybajs wrote: »

This is the whole thing, you just knocked them down, you shouldn't have to do anything to keep the pressure on them before they get up. That's the whole advantage behind getting a knockdown ffs. :pac:

But its SFxTK Dreddy. It crosses the line on everything that's acceptable! :pac:

GorySnake

Current changes on the entire SF side of the cast

http://www.capcom-unity.com/dubindoh/blog/2012/10/19/street-fighter-x-tekken-ver-2013-change-log-for-the-sf-cast

This is a ton of changes.

My initial impression, too many ****ing classic Capcom nerfs. Can only pray my cheap ass teams are still cheap.

The Hound

Capcom have lost it

Nutrient

Rob2D wrote: »

But its SFxTK Dreddy. It crosses the line on everything that's acceptable! :pac:

The game itself is just odd

I like the fact that Knock downs don't lead to mind numbing mix ups that some characters are just plain free to making vortex characters plain gdlk and in small cases braindead

The roll mechanic needs something changed, idk what but anything like you can't reversal from a forward roll or something like that idk

chopperbyrne

No sign of standing jabs whiffing on crouchers in that huge list.

Doctor DooM

Jesus, was Guile so cheap he needed a health nerf AND needed his alpha counter nerfed?

Azza

I love these balance patch moans. Think its best to see the changes in action before commenting.

But I for one welcome any Guile nerfs in any game. Hopefully they will import the nerfs over to AE as well. And the Cody ones.

Fergus_

I'm genuinely amazed, Capcom are completely clueless on how to balance games.

Boost chain nerfs are really going to hurt the SF cast, especially Poison as it's like one of her only strenghts.

Sagat's fake hk meter nerf build sucks dicks, Ryu wasn't even THAT good and he got destroyed, as much as I hate Hugo, he's not great and still got nerfed to hell, Rolento's 1st rekka is unsafe on block, overall normals nerf.

Massive WTF at Sakura, they nerfed her fireball lool, st.hk pushback reduced, yeah Sakura's pretty much useless now, but thanks for super damage increase, so need that!

Nice to see Elena buffs I guess.

Here I was thinking they'd buff the weaker characters to match with the stronger ones and leave the stronger ones the way they are, classic Capcom with the dumbass unnecessary changes.

Scavenger XIII

Sigh.

How to fix SFxT without buggering around:
-Make the inputs actually work properly (already in the game, just apply "expert input" effect at all times).
-Stand jabs need to whiff on crouching again.
-Slow down the timer.
-Slow down health regen.
-If time runs out during a canned animation, apply the rest of the moves damage before declaring the result (should apply to SF4 as well TBF).
-Fix overheads that open you up when you connect with them (like Poisons).

One engineer who knows their way around the source could have a build out in a day. :pac:

Personally I'd like to see some of the needlessly tacked on mechanics dropped from the game but I know it won't happen. If they at least fixed the inputs I would probably play the game casually again instead of using it to keep my desk level.

Doctor DooM

I'm kinda with Azza on this, to me it looks like the first batch of SF4 >> SSF4 style changes, and I don't think anyone (except maybe hound :P) will argue that didn't work out for the best.

I'll wait and give the finished version a go, although I will miss Guile's troll alpha counter.

Rob2D

It'll be very interesting to see what they do with the Tekken characters. I hear there's gonna be Tekken style juggles.

Misty Chaos

Erm... wow, A lot of needless nerfs right there. Seeing the list of changes for the Tekken cast should be interesting.

Please don't nerf Lili, she's being my go to anchor since day 1!

Cobelcog

lol oh wow

GorySnake

Azza wrote: »

I love these balance patch moans. Think its best to see the changes in action before commenting.

Well it's hard to get excited over changes that are mostly nerfs and also a general nerf to almost the entire cast in boost chains and meter build, which were 2 of the things I really liked about the game, high damage pokes and meter management.

I'd like to say "wait until it's actually out" but these changes show that Capcom have their own plans for how this game should be played, what that is I dont know, but it's not a good plan. You nerf boost chains then people are going to be less inclined to press buttons, you try and poke with a cr.mk and get 60 damage and risk eating 300 on a whiff punish. I dont see how that is going to help a game that people already feel is too defensive.

Azza

Everyone was going ape s*** when they announced the Super changes which was primarily focused on nerfs. But overall the balance worked out better. Maybe Capcom know what they are doing.

I was under the impression that boost combo's where one of the things that made the game uninteresting at least to spectate. Most of the game revolved around them, because they where rather low risk and high reward.

As for the meter nerfs. They made it hader to gain meter by playing defensively.
You get more by playing offensively. You will still be managing your meter.

I like how you don't know what Capcom's plan is but you know its a good one?
How does that work?


More importantly how does this effect Bison. Seems most of the Bison mainers on SRK forums are quite happy. They feel he got off lightly.

Teleport got nerfed, but Bison has other wake up options. Asides from that it keeps it in line with Capcoms intention to make the game less defensive.
MP buffs seem good for him. Gives him link combo's that do better damage. One of his problem now is low damage.
Meter changes are in line with everyone else.
Throw nerf damage is inline with other characters throw nerfs.
LK SK push back on block increase is a change people are rather neutral on. He might be safe from Zangief super. Not sure how it will effect him overall.
EX.SK buff looks nice.
Super buff looks pretty minor.

His boost combo didn't get nerfed and it was very good to begin with. He should move up the rankings abit. And obviously the higher ranked Bison is the better the game will be.

GorySnake

Azza wrote: »

Everyone was going ape s*** when they announced the Super changes which was primarily focused on nerfs. But overall the balance worked out better. Maybe Capcom know what they are doing.

Of course people are going to complain when there's a list just full of character nerfs, what's there to get excited about? Rufus gets an overall damage nerf, even less hitstun on his divekick and his already crap chains are now worse, oh but he gets 10 more damage on snake strikes. Rolento is now a button instead of a character, if Capcom know what they are doing, please tell me what Rolento can do now that his chains are nerfed, rekka is punishable, j.mk hitbox is nerfed so he cant even go nuts with baton hops and a big random health nerf on top of all that.

Balance is nice and all to have but it doesnt make a great game, especially when the balance changes just make everyone weaker. I also seem to remember a lot of people saying Super was a well made game but not that fun.

Azza wrote: »

I was under the impression that boost combo's where one of the things that made the game uninteresting at least to spectate. Most of the game revolved around them, because they where rather low risk and high reward.

Game shouldnt be balanced around spectators. The stream viewers that spam "oh no jab x timeouts" whenever SFxT is/was on stream shouldnt influence how the game should develop, the actual players should.

I dont see this being a positive change for viewing anyway, game is going to get a whole lot more lame in my opinion.

Azza wrote: »

As for the meter nerfs. They made it hader to gain meter by playing defensively.
You get more by playing offensively. You will still be managing your meter.

So everyone keeps saying. If you actually look at the numbers, the majority of the characters have meter build nerfs on hit as well, with the exception of maybe 1 special move that has a slight meter build buff.

Easy example, Guile:
Special move meter gain
• Flash Kick: on hit 40->30
• Sonic Boom: whiff 15->0 / on hit 20->25

That's a total of -5 overall meter build, add on the meter build he loses from whiffed booms that's -20. Most of the characters have similar changes.

Azza wrote: »

I like how you don't know what Capcom's plan is but you know its a good one?
How does that work?

They've made a general nerf across the cast regarding boost chains, a big nerf to offense. One of the biggest complaints is that the game is too defensive, how does nerfing boost chains help that? No one is going to press buttons now, the risk/reward is just not in your favour now for playing offensively at all. You cant fish for an medium-heavy hit confirm now, you have to commit. So you either choose not to commit and get 60 damage but risk 300 health on getting whiff punished, or you commit to the chain, and risk 300 damage either way. I just dont see how Capcom plan to make the game more offensive with changes like this.

Azza wrote: »

His boost combo didn't get nerfed and it was very good to begin with. He should move up the rankings abit. And obviously the higher ranked Bison is the better the game will be.

Aaaand that's why you have no problem with these changes :rolleyes:

On a final note, a big problem I have with these balance changes is that the game didnt need character balance changes, it needed more general changes to the game's system. Who's to say the game isnt balanced as it is now anyway? It's only 7 months old with over half the cast barely explored.

K.O.Kiki

It's cool guys, Capcom will sell a "Revert Changes" gem. :pac:

Nutrient

They may have nerfed all the characters but,

at least gems remain untouched, thank goodness

FutureGuy

Changes incoming, I still have my copy but havent played in months...keep or sell?

Jun_DP101

if you haven't sold it by now, might as well wait till the patch. See if you'll enjoy the game more then

Misty Chaos

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/oct/22/street-fighter-x-tekken-v2013-patch-notes-part-2-toro-megaman-cole-kazuya-nina-marduk-king-bob-and-julia/

Some more patch notes have come out, covering some of the PS Exclusives and some of the Tekken Cast.

Julia has fallen victim to Capcom's glass ceiling and her backdash now travels 40% less distance ( OUCH. Sorry Fergus. )

Kazuya has gotten buffed, LOL. ( Edit: OK, he did get some nerfs but still ) So did King and Marduk.

Seeing that Nina is the only character I play somewhat decently in that list I can say she's come out of this alright. A mixture of nerfs and buffs for her ( mostly buffs, though. )