Ground Zero Mosque

LostinKildare

They've been building a memorial, park and museum on the WTC site for the past four years. Its design was chosen from international competition and with consultation with the victims' families (which Bloomberg insisted upon). It is due to open on the tenth anniversary of the attack, Sept 11, 2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_September_11_Memorial_%26_Museum_at_the_World_Trade_Center

Overheal

But meanwhile, legislation that will give medical care to 9/11 first responders has been blocked. Why? House Republicans defeated the bill, for which they object to the source of income for this health care: a new tax on offshore income which are currently evading tax.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-4-2010/i-give-up---9-11-responders-bill

Despite getting a majority of Votes, Democrats used a 2/3rds majority rule which failed because they had to try and block a tetarded ammendment by the GOP to block these healthcare funds to any First Responder that happened to be an illegal immigrant.

They could have been a KGB spy for all I ****ing care. But if they were on Ground Zero saving lives - American Lives, even - they aren't exactly freeloaders now are they? They ****ing earned the right to medical care. I dare anyone to object.

Overheal

Oh, and watch the Lieutenant Governor of Tennessee suggest Muslim is a Nationality and/or a Cult:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update

Also apparently the New York Mosque is not a mosque at all...

cheesehead

Slightly off-topic: Greg Gutfeld, an American libertarian commentator, wants to build and open a gay bar next to the proposed 9/11 mosque. See the following statement, released this past Monday on his blog:

"So, the Muslim investors championing the construction of the new mosque near Ground Zero claim it's all about strengthening the relationship between the Muslim and non-Muslim world.
As an American, I believe they have every right to build the mosque - after all, if they buy the land and they follow the law - who can stop them?
Which is, why, in the spirit of outreach, I've decided to do the same thing.
I'm announcing tonight, that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men. To best express my sincere desire for dialogue, the bar will be situated next to the mosque Park51, in an available commercial space."


The comments following the announcement on Gutfeld's blog offered some awesome suggestions for the bar's name, including: The Crescent Moon, Halal Meat, Between the Sheiks, Sandy Bottoms, Mahdi Gras, Oman, What a Night!, Jihadi Jack's, Sheik Yer Booty's, etc. (These are some of the tame ones)

Overheal

Seems like deliberate irony no matter how you swing it. It's not that much different from any of the other protests: all of which have been perfectly legal, just woefully misguided.

Black Swan

Nodin wrote: »

Theres no memorial for the families at ground zero? Thats perhaps something the various people complaining about a mosque two blocks away might be better focusing their efforts on....

If there was a memorial built for the victims at the ground zero site, and victims names were listed, will the people who are protesting the ground zero mosque also protest the inclusion of those innocent victims that died in the Twin Towers who were of the Islamic faith? Will Sarah Palin also twitter that the inclusion of their names would not be sensitive to the feelings of the Christian, Jewish, or other non-Islamic victims?

metrovelvet

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

If there was a memorial built for the victims at the ground zero site, and victims names were listed, will the people who are protesting the ground zero mosque also protest the inclusion of those innocent victims that died in the Twin Towers who were of the Islamic faith? Will Sarah Palin also twitter that the inclusion of their names would not be sensitive to the feelings of the Christian, Jewish, or other non-Islamic victims?

Why wouldn't they be?

Nodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why wouldn't they be?

I can't think of a reason why they would be. You might lay out your reasoning for us.

metrovelvet

Nodin wrote: »

I can't think of a reason why they would be. You might lay out your reasoning for us.

Sorry I dont understand you. They would include the names of all the victims.

I assume people here dont expect the people who flew the planes to be included among the victims names.

Black Swan

metrovelvet wrote: »

They would include the names of all the victims.

All the names of the innocent victims that died in the Twin Towers should appear on a memorial at ground zero. But this was not the question. The question in the earlier post was:

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

...will the people who are protesting the ground zero mosque also protest the inclusion of those innocent victims that died in the Twin Towers who were of the Islamic faith?

Earlier in this thread an incomplete list showed many innocent victims that died in the towers, including investment bankers, brokers, policemen, etc., that happened to be of the Islamic faith. They were innocent, and just happened to be working along side Christians, Jews, etc., when the planes struck the towers.

Yet there are political leaders like the former Alaska governor and Republican Vice Presidential 2008 candidate attempting to block the building of a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero, completely ignoring that innocent people of the Islamic faith were also killed by the terrorists. So the question continued:

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Will Sarah Palin also twitter that the inclusion of their names would not be sensitive to the feelings of the Christian, Jewish, or other non-Islamic victims?

If it is insensitive to build a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero because it might offend Christians, Jews, etc., why wouldn't the same discriminatory argument apply to the listing of the innocent victims of the Towers that happened to be Islamic?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

metrovelvet

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Along with the first planned parenthood for Muslims.

metrovelvet

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

All the names of the innocent victims that died in the Twin Towers should appear on a memorial at ground zero. But this was not the question. The question in the earlier post was:

Earlier in this thread an incomplete list showed many innocent victims that died in the towers, including investment bankers, brokers, policemen, etc., that happened to be of the Islamic faith. They were innocent, and just happened to be working along side Christians, Jews, etc., when the planes struck the towers.

Yet there are political leaders like the former Alaska governor and Republican Vice Presidential 2008 candidate attempting to block the building of a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero, completely ignoring that innocent people of the Islamic faith were also killed by the terrorists. So the question continued:


If it is insensitive to build a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero because it might offend Christians, Jews, etc., why wouldn't the same discriminatory argument apply to the listing of the innocent victims of the Towers that happened to be Islamic?

No. Because to exclude the names of innocent victims of whatever faith would be to interfere with historical data and fact. It would be wrong imo.

Its not a discriminatory argument but a historical one.

How would you like an Anglican Church built two blocks from a famine grave or where bloody sunday took place.

Technically, legally nothing wrong with it. But it is insensitive and really giving the victims the finger.

You have to remember 911 is very recent and still very raw for New Yorkers.

Black Swan

If it is insensitive to build a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero because it might offend Christians, Jews, etc., why wouldn't the same discriminatory argument apply to the listing of the innocent victims of the Towers that happened to be Islamic?

Is it OK to be sensitive to the feelings of Christians, Jews, etc., while at the same time to be insensitive or down right insulting to the feelings of the families of innocent victims that happened to be of the Islamic faith?

Should the families of the innocent victims of Islamic faith share the blame for what the terrorists did on 9/11?

Should the hundreds of millions of people about the world that are of the Islamic faith be blamed for the acts of a radical, deviant few?

Nodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

How would you like an Anglican Church built two blocks from a famine grave or where bloody sunday took place..

There almost certainly anglican churches within some close distance to famine graves, given the size of the country.

I fail to see the connection between the anglican faith and the famine. Neither do I see the connection between it and bloody sunday.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Technically, legally nothing wrong with it. But it is insensitive and really giving the victims the finger.

How is it "giving victims the finger"?

metrovelvet

Nodin wrote: »

There almost certainly anglican churches within some close distance to famine graves, given the size of the country.

I fail to see the connection between the anglican faith and the famine. Neither do I see the connection between it and bloody sunday.



How is it "giving victims the finger"?

Well I dont know what to tell you. At some point this becomes a very subjective argument about feelings and we will just have to agree to disagree. I'm a native New Yorker so I am bound to have a more emotional perspective on this and I do find the proximity offensive. A mosque isnt a community center. It is exclusive to muslims. There are so many already in NY. Why do they have to put one up two blocks away?

Black Swan

metrovelvet wrote: »

Technically, legally nothing wrong with it. But it is insensitive and really giving the victims the finger.

Which victims would be getting the finger? Christian? Jewish? Islamic?

Although raised Catholic like most Irish, I am no longer a member of an organized religion, partly because of the discrimination (and sometimes hatred) that is expressed between different faiths. This ground zero mosque controversy is an example of this discrimination and hatred.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why do they have to put one up two blocks away?

Precisely how many blocks away would be OK and not insensitive?
3 blocks?
4 blocks?
5 blocks?
6 blocks?
7 blocks?
Or how many more blocks precisely?

I understand that there is an Islamic prayer site 5 blocks from ground zero. Should they be "encouraged" to move further away from ground zero by persons of other faiths, etc.?

metrovelvet

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Which victims would be getting the finger? Christian? Jewish? Islamic?

Although raised Catholic like most Irish, I am no longer a member of an organized religion, partly because of the discrimination (and sometimes hatred) that is expressed between different faiths. This ground zero mosque controversy is an example of this discrimination and hatred.

Precisely how many blocks away would be OK and not insensitive?
3 blocks?
4 blocks?
5 blocks?
6 blocks?
7 blocks?
Or how many more blocks precisely?

I understand that there is an Islamic prayer site 5 blocks from ground zero. Should they be "encouraged" to move further away from ground zero by persons of other faiths, etc.?

Look. It really doesn't matter because it will go ahead anyway. If they have the money for the land, they can build whatever they want. So no law can stop them. So you don't have to worry.

Nodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well I dont know what to tell you. At some point this becomes a very subjective argument about feelings and we will just have to agree to disagree.

If you run a society based entirely on 'feelings', it will not turn out well.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I'm a native New Yorker so I am bound to have a more emotional perspective on this and I do find the proximity offensive.

Then I'd suggest learning to differentiate between the activities of a few and the religion (and its various sects and factions). Blaming muslims in general for 9/11 is the same as blaming all right wing christians for the abortion clinic bomber. Or catholics for child molestation. The guy behind it is a Sufi, for starters.

metrovelvet wrote: »

A mosque isnt a community center. It is exclusive to muslims. There are so many already in NY. Why do they have to put one up two blocks away?

Theres going to be a mosque in the community centre.

Overheal

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Precisely how many blocks away would be OK and not insensitive?
3 blocks?
4 blocks?
5 blocks?
6 blocks?
7 blocks?
Or how many more blocks precisely?

I understand that there is an Islamic prayer site 5 blocks from ground zero. Should they be "encouraged" to move further away from ground zero by persons of other faiths, etc.?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-10-2010/municipal-land-use-hearing-update

OREILLY: "Put it 5 blocks away or 10 blocks away"

Rich Lowry: "A 15 block radius"

Gingrich: "20 blocks away"

"How about the upper west side in Woody Allen's building" ?!

metrovelvet

Utah.

metrovelvet

Nodin wrote: »

If you run a society based entirely on 'feelings', it will not turn out well.


And if you run one without them it wont turn out well.

You want an empathyless world eh?

Overheal

metrovelvet wrote: »

Utah.

Clicky Linky. They're protesting Mosques in Statin Island, Tennessee, Wisconsin, California, etc.

old_aussie

Nodin wrote: »

Then I'd suggest learning to differentiate between the activities of a few and the religion (and its various sects and factions). Blaming muslims in general for 9/11 is the same as blaming all right wing christians for the abortion clinic bomber

Strange how thousands of muslims(NOT JUST A FEW) in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia and other muslim countries reacted when they heard that the Twin Towers were destroyed by muslim terrorists flying planes into them.

Thousands of muslims were shown on CNN, filling the streets cheering and waving their countries flags showing their support for bin laden . To see CNN coverage of them cheering visit Google.

Patriotic Americans will stop the mosque being built anywhere near Ground Zero.

Nodin

old_aussie wrote: »

Strange how (.....) built anywhere near Ground Zero.

As you've previously detailed on this site your deliberate provocation and violence against a muslim, purely on the grounds of his religion, I'd suggest that your opinions are not worth posting.

Overheal

You mean the Palestinians?

Do you know who we're backing in that conflict??

Yeah: I'm not surprised they were celebrating.

Also how does a few thousand Palestinians equate to the 1.66 Billion followers of Islam?

Nodin

metrovelvet wrote: »

And if you run one without them it wont turn out well.

You want an empathyless world eh?

I'm suggesting that feeling is best tempered with reason.

Do you think that all muslims are the same?

Overheal

Patriotic Americans

This is an asinine term I keep hearing more and more on this website. The people that normally use it are the ones who have no idea what it means to be either a Patriot or an American. I suggest you go and research both thoroughly.

Black Swan

metrovelvet wrote: »

Look. It really doesn't matter because it will go ahead anyway. If they have the money for the land, they can build whatever they want. So no law can stop them. So you don't have to worry.

Oh I do worry about it, as you should too. This ground zero mosque controversy does not just concern New Yorker's (even if some do live on an island). It has been reported around the world, and is a world concern that can have future consequences.

Sarah Palin is not a New Yorker either, but she plays on this controversy to keep her name in the news.

It contributes to the creation of an "Us" vs "Them" division by faith, Christians vs Muslims, Jews vs Muslims, etc., etc. I thought that the Crusades ended long ago, but the hateful sentiments continue to fester today.

When the ground zero mosque controversy hit the world media and web, Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida would have cause to jump up-and-down for joy! Their terrorist action 9 years ago on NYC continues to "divide and conquer" America, as well as to hurt their foreign relations with many nations that have large Islamic populations.

old_aussie

Nodin wrote: »

As you've previously detailed on this site your deliberate provocation and violence against a muslim, purely on the grounds of his religion, I'd suggest that your opinions are not worth posting.

I'm not going to have some muslim tell me what to do in my own country and tell me that I have to change the Australian culture to suit him.

He can adapt to and accept the Australian culture or piss-off back to mussyland if he doesn't like the Australian culture.