RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

galtee boy

MACHEAD wrote: »

As I'm online at the moment, I'll jump in and answer this to best of my ability Galtee Boy. At least this is my interpretation of the situation, 'Freesat' is a UK based service, 'Saorsat' is/will be an ROI based service. I assume therefor they'll each have their own mutally exclusive EPG's.

That I understand, but what I am really asking is, will there be a one pvr box, one 7 day epg solution for Freesat and Saorsat ? the same as with DTT right now, you can get a Freeview HD+ pvr and if you're near the East coast or near NI, you can have Saorview and Freeview channels on the one 7 day epg and record them ( albeit, Saorview doesn't have series link yet )
To the best of my knowledge, the only satellite boxes with 7 day epg's are Sky and Freesat and these are exclusive to the channels they provide. I know you can go down the route of using Windows to create epg's etc, but this is far too complicated for the " ordinary man in the street"

STB

The Irish Stations wont be on 28.2, they will be on 9E on satellite. The Freesat menu is proprietary.

You do know that you can mix Freesat and DTT stations in the VU+Duo (3 tuners) with 7 day epg for all (via Enigma grabbing the 7 day epg for sat). So if you cant get DTT where you are then this would also work for Saorsat and 7 day epg from 28.2 as well.

watty

Does VU+Duo have full MHEG5 support?

Saorsat is really only for people that can't get DTT at all.

The Cush

Until RTÉNL publish the Saorsat receiver specification everything about it is speculation. RTÉ has only spoken publically about Saorsat once that I know of and that was July 14th last at the Oireachtas Committee discussion where they announced the existence of the service. I would expect more information in the coming months now that the satellite is on its way to 9 deg. east.

MACHEAD

It's very early days to say yet. But given the potentially small market for such a PVR (Freesat/Saorsat combo), I would think it's unlikely, in the short term anyway. The vast majority of veiwers will be able to get terrestrial digital via aerial, and get UK channels via Freesat. East coast and border rersidents will be able to get both Irish & UK terrestrial from aerial. For those of us up here in the 'North' who can not get a Saorveiw signal, and who can't wait untill 2012, would welcome just such a combo box. Best advice for now though is to play the 'wait and see game'.

galtee boy

:eek: You do know that you can mix Freesat and DTT stations in the VU+Duo (3 tuners) with 7 day epg for all (via Enigma grabbing the 7 day epg for sat).

I'm not being smart, but speak English to me ! What is VU+Duo and what is Enigma ? Is this a box I can buy somwhere and bring home, plug and play ? or do I need to get someone to install ? I am reasonably technically minded, but if I have to go "messing about" with laptops, Windows, downloading etc, then I start to loose interest. What you have said, sounds like the answer to my query, but how complicated and expensive is it, so as to have Saorview and Freesat on the one 7 day epg ?

rlogue

Of course there isn't a Freesat Saorsat PVR combination out there that is certified to work - not yet any way.

The Humax Freesat boxes promoted by Watty as a solution have got a particularly convoluted way of going into Non-Freesat mode whereas the Sagemcom boxes that do go into Non-Freesat mode in an easy way (necessary for access to the Saorsat channels) do not support Diseqc switching and therefore would not be suitable for Saorsat.

If you want a proper PVR that gives you access to the Irish channels and Freesat then the following might help;

An HTPC that has two DVB-S tuners and an MPEG 4 capable DVB-T tuner coupled with plugins that will decode the Freesat EPG and the Saorview EPG. MHEG 5 support is coming at some point with DVBViewer so that is a possibility;

A patched Technomate combo box that will give a 7 day Freesat and Saorview EPG but no MHEG text support;

Possibly a RealDigital box but let's wait to see what they will offer as this has the potential to provide Freesat and at least the four main Irish channels on the same dish and possibly Sky Sports at a far lower cost than Sky currently offer.

Saorsat is primarily intended to be a fill in for areas that cannot pick up Saorview. It is not competing with anyone, either Sky or Real Digital. Ideally a satellite box that can accommodate three satellite tuners would be great for a Freesat and Saorsat combination. The box would need to be able to parse the Freesat EPG and have Ethernet connectivity so channels could be streamed inside the users home network. For this the only real user friendly satellite solution would be a Dreambox 8000 HD.

MACHEAD

Wow! it's a pricey piece of kit

http://www.pulsat.com/products/Dreambox-DM8000-HD-DVD.html

galtee boy

rlogue wrote: »

Of course there isn't a Freesat Saorsat PVR combination out there that is certified to work - not yet any way.

The Humax Freesat boxes promoted by Watty as a solution have got a particularly convoluted way of going into Non-Freesat mode whereas the Sagemcom boxes that do go into Non-Freesat mode in an easy way (necessary for access to the Saorsat channels) do not support Diseqc switching and therefore would not be suitable for Saorsat.

If you want a proper PVR that gives you access to the Irish channels and Freesat then the following might help;

An HTPC that has two DVB-S tuners and an MPEG 4 capable DVB-T tuner coupled with plugins that will decode the Freesat EPG and the Saorview EPG. MHEG 5 support is coming at some point with DVBViewer so that is a possibility;

A patched Technomate combo box that will give a 7 day Freesat and Saorview EPG but no MHEG text support;

Possibly a RealDigital box but let's wait to see what they will offer as this has the potential to provide Freesat and at least the four main Irish channels on the same dish and possibly Sky Sports at a far lower cost than Sky currently offer.

Saorsat is primarily intended to be a fill in for areas that cannot pick up Saorview. It is not competing with anyone, either Sky or Real Digital. Ideally a satellite box that can accommodate three satellite tuners would be great for a Freesat and Saorsat combination. The box would need to be able to parse the Freesat EPG and have Ethernet connectivity so channels could be streamed inside the users home network. For this the only real user friendly satellite solution would be a Dreambox 8000 HD.

Thanks for all the advice. No easy answer by the looks of it. Will have to stick with two box/two epg's for the moment I think !

Kotek Besar

MACHEAD wrote: »

Wow! it's a pricey piece of kit

http://www.pulsat.com/products/Dreambox-DM8000-HD-DVD.html

Meh. Doesn't even have HDMI.

rlogue

Kotek Besar wrote: »

Meh. Doesn't even have HDMI.

It doesn't have HDMI but the standard cable shipped with the DM 800 and 8000 connects to the Dreambox on it's DVI port and to the TV via a HDMI port so any TV with a HDMI socket can connect to a HD Dreambox. Sound is also carried via the DVI port.

Kotek Besar

rlogue wrote: »

It doesn't have HDMI but the standard cable shipped with the DM 800 and 8000 connects to the Dreambox on it's DVI port and to the TV via a HDMI port so any TV with a HDMI socket can connect to a HD Dreambox. Sound is also carried via the DVI port.

That's clever. So a DVI - HDMI cable is included. I thought DVI carried only video? Btw, why didn't they just put an HDMI port on it instead?

STB

galtee boy wrote: »

:eek: You do know that you can mix Freesat and DTT stations in the VU+Duo (3 tuners) with 7 day epg for all (via Enigma grabbing the 7 day epg for sat).

I'm not being smart, but speak English to me ! What is VU+Duo and what is Enigma ? Is this a box I can buy somwhere and bring home, plug and play ? or do I need to get someone to install ? I am reasonably technically minded, but if I have to go "messing about" with laptops, Windows, downloading etc, then I start to loose interest. What you have said, sounds like the answer to my query, but how complicated and expensive is it, so as to have Saorview and Freesat on the one 7 day epg ?

Its a Linux box running Enigma2.

Less than half the price of a Dreambox 8000 and three tuners.

Read up on it.

EPG Look

watty

rlogue wrote: »

Of course there isn't a Freesat Saorsat PVR combination out there that is certified to work - not yet any way.

The Humax Freesat boxes promoted by Watty as a solution have got a particularly convoluted way of going into Non-Freesat mode whereas the Sagemcom boxes that do go into Non-Freesat mode in an easy way (necessary for access to the Saorsat channels) do not support Diseqc switching and therefore would not be suitable for Saorsat.

...

Saorsat is primarily intended to be a fill in for areas that cannot pick up Saorview. It is not competing with anyone, either Sky or Real Digital. Ideally a satellite box that can accommodate three satellite tuners would be great for a Freesat and Saorsat combination. The box would need to be able to parse the Freesat EPG and have Ethernet connectivity so channels could be streamed inside the users home network. For this the only real user friendly satellite solution would be a Dreambox 8000 HD.

No, you don't need three sat tuners. Only two for a PVR or one for a non-PVR

I'm not particularly promoting the Humax Foxsat HDR for Saorsat. It's the best PVR for Freesat, and that have 45+ useful TV channels. Saorsat will only have a 1/10th as many channels, thus a "convoluted" method might be suitable.

It would seem odd for someone to want Saorsat and not want Freesat HD also. I'd rather have BBC Interactive working than RTE Interactive if it came to a Choice and the RTE video/Audio works.

Any reasonable price solution with single box will use a Multi-Switch or Diseqc switch to switch between the Ku LNBF @ 28.2E (Freesat) and the Ka LNBF @9E (Saorsat), no matter if two dishes, a Toroidal dish or a regular Triax + multifeed bar. Thus the set-box needs Diseqc. Ka-Sat uses DVB-S2 modulation just as the "dedicated" MPEG4/HD transponders on 28E use DVB-S2 (not all HD on Freesat is DVB-S2 though). To be any use to backup to the DVB-T sites, the Transport Stream content on Saorsat needs to be identical. This also means a cost saving at uplink as no separate encoders are needed.

All this means we can be almost 100% sure that Saorsat is essentially a copy of Saorview but with Modulation for Ka-Sat.
So Spec will be same as Saorview, but with DVB-S2 instead of DVB-T for Modulation.

Freesat HD has a non-standard way of doing EPG. But it does support DVB-S2, MPEG4 (L4), HE-AAC and MHEG5. So the compatibility will be similar to using a "Freeview HD" box or TV for Saorview.

You will need a Ka-band LNBF. Also unlike TV aerials in Wexford or Donegal, (Saorview + Freeview) the only way to combine Freesat & Saorsat (sensibly) to one tuner is a Diseqc switch support in the Setbox. So a Sky HD box will not work. Sky or Sagemcom could release SW update for Diseqc for their boxes. I'd not hold my breath. Sky will go to extraordinary lengths if it suits them (USB DTT sticks on Sky boxes in Italy).

kala85

Can I tune in the rte saorsat signal into a sky box that no longer has its subscription paid but is picking up the british Free to view channels eg bbc one, two etc...

watty

No.

• Wrong Satellite position. No Diseqc switching enabled on Sky box
• You need a Ka LNBF
• Service doesn't start till May/June 2011
• Only a Sky HD box can receive DVB-S2, but a Sky HD box isn't going to work either.

dmm1000

on the "Tooway" website they have a piece about their intended use of the Ka-Sat satellite system for internet and the 10 mbps download it will provide

a countdown clock on the left of the page suggests availability around May 1st 2011


http://www.tooway4you.eu/en/tooway-internet/ka-sat

this may not translate into the same timescale for availability of Saorsat on the same satellite but heres hoping .....

warlikedave

dmm1000 wrote: »

on the "Tooway" website they have a piece about their intended use of the Ka-Sat satellite system for internet and the 10 mbps download it will provide

a countdown clock on the left of the page suggests availability around May 1st 2011


http://www.tooway4you.eu/en/tooway-internet/ka-sat

this may not translate into the same timescale for availability of Saorsat on the same satellite but heres hoping .....

I presume that internet services cannot be used on the same beam as a digital tv service or can it? is it down to rte and what they do with the remaining capicirty on the spot beam after all the channels are online or will rte just buy the necessary bandwidth on the spot beam and then another party uses the rest for thier own services?

watty

warlikedave wrote: »

I presume that internet services cannot be used on the same beam as a digital tv service or can it? is it down to rte and what they do with the remaining capicirty on the spot beam after all the channels are online or will rte just buy the necessary bandwidth on the spot beam and then another party uses the rest for thier own services?

The spot beam can be split to as many services as desired. RTE can rent two "virtual Transponders". Even Ku satellites may have 75MHz transponder split up into various sizes of virtual transponders for separate operators.

Apogee

warlikedave wrote: »

I presume that internet services cannot be used on the same beam as a digital tv service or can it? is it down to rte and what they do with the remaining capicirty on the spot beam after all the channels are online or will rte just buy the necessary bandwidth on the spot beam and then another party uses the rest for thier own services?

The one TP should be able to accommodate TV and internet. I'd imagine RTÉ/NL will only rent enough capacity for TV.

watty

The Tooway service needs 10 gateways / Earth Stations and much infrastructure. Some investment in this may have been delayed till satellite was launched.

Saorsat usage is very much simpler (basically just an Ka version of sort of Uplink that RTE uses for Sky, on a big dish pointed at 9E). So could be available earlier, same time or later depending on Eutelsat and RTE NL schedules.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

The one TP should be able to accommodate TV and internet. I'd imagine RTÉ/NL will only rent enough capacity for TV.

They aren't so far actually saying how many physical Transponders there are. There is almost certainly a lot of on board multiplexing. There could even be transponders that have bandsplitters on output to feed two spots of different band from one transponder. Due to the higher frequency, even if all else was similar an Ka Transponder can have twice the bandwidth as a Ku Transponder. Physical Transponders have been becoming wider band.

It would be mind boggling if it has more than 1 transponder per spot!

ISAA

Any word on the downlink frequency, from Eutelsat, for this bird in question.

Gipo3

Could someone explain how this works?

"A dual tuner Recording box will only need one coax unlike Sky/Freesat which needs two."

Also will a 7 day epg be available on generic fta boxes.

Sam Russell

Gipo3 wrote: »

Could someone explain how this works?

"A dual tuner Recording box will only need one coax unlike Sky/Freesat which needs two."

Also will a 7 day epg be available on generic fta boxes.

The Saorsat is expected to be only on one quadrant, so there is no switching. The Astra LNB switches between HL Hu VL VU, using a tone and a DC voltage. That is not necessary on Saorsat.

We do not have any information on Saorsat, all is speculation.

watty

Some speculation, some educated deduction and some facts

If the PVR is used for Freesat also, then you need 2 x Diseqc switches and two coax to PVR
port 1 of both switches is feed from 2 ports of a Quad Ku-Band LNB on 28.2E and the port 2 of both switches fed by satellite IF splitter (about €8) from a single ouput Ka-Band LNBF on 9E.

For more than one PVR a multiswitch instead of 2x Diseqc switches will feed up to 16 tuners. the 2nd set (or 3rd or 4th depending on port used) of four inputs on the multiswitch only needs a single coax from ka-band LNBF. 28.2E is usually on first port so that Sky boxes work with Sky (they won't do Saorsat though).

semper fidelis

Well guys in case any of you white knights who so quickly jumped in to defend Watty's honour and who thought, as a result of your combined razor sharp repartee that I had slunk away (don't sound right - is it slunk or slinked ?) having been technically put in my box, well sorry to disappoint you boys I am still here and still on the attack.
Unfortunately since my last post I have undergone surgery over the Christmas period thus putting me out of action for a while but the brain is still active so I would like to take up where I left off.
Initially I criticised this forum for allowing people to blatantly push commercial products and I questioned what the moderators were doing about it. I now see that on another part of this forum a mob from Spain, no less, are blatantly pushing KA Sat and TwoWay without any interference from the mod. If this is the norm here in Ireland then I owe Watty an apology for also pushing Eutelsat (good luck to him if he can get away with it as he has obviously found that he can). What I don't understand is why are'nt the Avanti guys pushing their product or are they English gentlemen who do not consider it to be "cricket".
Now to get back to Watty's technical argument. He has produced a map with various coloured circles on showing possible coverage areas. Watty's theories are exactly that - theories. I am dealing from practice ie. I have worked on this equipment and I know that Watty's theories are wrong.
However let us, for the sake of argument, assume that both of us are 50% right or 50% wrong depending on whether you aspire to the fact that the glass is "half full " or "half empty". In my case I say that all of England will be capable of getting reception - Watty says that reception will be confined to west Wales. On a 50/50 basis that means that if Watty is half right/wrong then at least one third of Britain will be CAPABLE OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE. If I am half right/wrong it will mean that at least half of Britain will be CAPABLE OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE.
I put this into capitals to draw attention to one very salient point here. The whole discussion here started about a satellite free to air service as put forward by RTE as a solution to their problem. As far as the guys who control the rights to all these American sit coms are concerned they are not interested in whether people in Britain will actually tune in to RTE to watch their shows. they are merely interested in the fact the the signal is available there so there is a CAPABILITY OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE.
Looking at RTE accounts for 2009 it would appear that they paid out €25,000,000 for bought in content. As this was for a population of 4 million people how much do you think they will have to shell out if the capability exists to serve even one third of Britain ?
Having dealt with these guys before I doubt if they will go along with the attitude - ah. sure it's only a bit of overspill ! I don't think so.
Now as the guy said "no more Mr Nice Guy" here ges with another of Wattys theories which I consider to be absolute boloney and that is the theory that anybody taking broadband from KA SAT at 9 degrees will be able to get free to air TV from 28.2 Not possible for the ordinary Joe. Somebody like Watty who is a specialist technician and who obviously likes to "tinker", may (and I use the word "may" reservedly) be able to get service from time to time but certainly not to such a consistent extent that the product could be marketed nationally. Local installers who tried to deliver this service would have a pain in their butt trying to keep both services continuously operational and whatever money they made on the installation would soon be swallowed up by countless service calls.
We are talking about a spread of 19.5 degrees here !! Together with that you are proposing a hybrid lnb that will take tv (K U wide beam) from 28.2 and broadband (KA very narrow beam ) from 9.0. Not realistic !!
As pointed out by the CEO of Eutelsat in his press release following the launch of KA SAT the system is designed to take broadband in KA from 9 degrees coupled with tv in KU from 13 degrees or 19degrees i.e. a maximum of 10 degrees spread. In my opinion even 10 degrees is pushing the boat out.
It will not be lost on people that both the 13 and 19 degree orbital slots are the two Eutelsat prime orbital positions for television but neither transmit in English ! Therefore the theory of tv and broadband from KA Sat and KU at 28.5 is a non starter in the UK and Ireland.
As I see it Eutelsat is primarily a European broadcast service provider whose footprint(s) happen to cover the UK and Ireland so there is a source of extra revenue there for them over and above their prime European source of revenue.
Does anybody seriously think that for the paltry few thousand subscribers involved in Ireland that Eutelsat are going to waste design time and dollars on producing a special arrangement (if it were possible) so that a few guys in Ireland could get free to air tv from 28.5 ? Nope.

Apogee

semper fidelis wrote: »

Together with that you are proposing a hybrid lnb that will take tv (K U wide beam) from 28.2 and broadband (KA very narrow beam ) from 9.0. Not realistic !!

What are you on about? Nobody - at any point- has proposed a hybrid Ka/Ku LNBF spanning 9E and 28E. That is beyond idiotic.

Maybe the anaesthetic hasn't fully worn off yet?

Tony

For the benefit of anyone who like me finds difficulty reading sempers ridiculous use of small font here is the post in normal size.



[=semper fidelis;69957553]Well guys in case any of you white knights who so quickly jumped in to defend Watty's honour and who thought, as a result of your combined razor sharp repartee that I had slunk away (don't sound right - is it slunk or slinked ?) having been technically put in my box, well sorry to disappoint you boys I am still here and still on the attack.
Unfortunately since my last post I have undergone surgery over the Christmas period thus putting me out of action for a while but the brain is still active so I would like to take up where I left off.
Initially I criticised this forum for allowing people to blatantly push commercial products and I questioned what the moderators were doing about it. I now see that on another part of this forum a mob from Spain, no less, are blatantly pushing KA Sat and TwoWay without any interference from the mod. If this is the norm here in Ireland then I owe Watty an apology for also pushing Eutelsat (good luck to him if he can get away with it as he has obviously found that he can). What I don't understand is why are'nt the Avanti guys pushing their product or are they English gentlemen who do not consider it to be "cricket".
Now to get back to Watty's technical argument. He has produced a map with various coloured circles on showing possible coverage areas. Watty's theories are exactly that - theories. I am dealing from practice ie. I have worked on this equipment and I know that Watty's theories are wrong.
However let us, for the sake of argument, assume that both of us are 50% right or 50% wrong depending on whether you aspire to the fact that the glass is "half full " or "half empty". In my case I say that all of England will be capable of getting reception - Watty says that reception will be confined to west Wales. On a 50/50 basis that means that if Watty is half right/wrong then at least one third of Britain will be CAPABLE OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE. If I am half right/wrong it will mean that at least half of Britain will be CAPABLE OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE.
I put this into capitals to draw attention to one very salient point here. The whole discussion here started about a satellite free to air service as put forward by RTE as a solution to their problem. As far as the guys who control the rights to all these American sit coms are concerned they are not interested in whether people in Britain will actually tune in to RTE to watch their shows. they are merely interested in the fact the the signal is available there so there is a CAPABILITY OF RECEIVING THE SERVICE.
Looking at RTE accounts for 2009 it would appear that they paid out €25,000,000 for bought in content. As this was for a population of 4 million people how much do you think they will have to shell out if the capability exists to serve even one third of Britain ?
Having dealt with these guys before I doubt if they will go along with the attitude - ah. sure it's only a bit of overspill ! I don't think so.
Now as the guy said "no more Mr Nice Guy" here ges with another of Wattys theories which I consider to be absolute boloney and that is the theory that anybody taking broadband from KA SAT at 9 degrees will be able to get free to air TV from 28.2 Not possible for the ordinary Joe. Somebody like Watty who is a specialist technician and who obviously likes to "tinker", may (and I use the word "may" reservedly) be able to get service from time to time but certainly not to such a consistent extent that the product could be marketed nationally. Local installers who tried to deliver this service would have a pain in their butt trying to keep both services continuously operational and whatever money they made on the installation would soon be swallowed up by countless service calls.
We are talking about a spread of 19.5 degrees here !! Together with that you are proposing a hybrid lnb that will take tv (K U wide beam) from 28.2 and broadband (KA very narrow beam ) from 9.0. Not realistic !!
]As pointed out by the CEO of Eutelsat in his press release following the launch of KA SAT the system is designed to take broadband in KA from 9 degrees coupled with tv in KU from 13 degrees or 19degrees i.e. a maximum of 10 degrees spread. In my opinion even 10 degrees is pushing the boat out.
It will not be lost on people that both the 13 and 19 degree orbital slots are the two Eutelsat prime orbital positions for television but neither transmit in English ! Therefore the theory of tv and broadband from KA Sat and KU at 28.5 is a non starter in the UK and Ireland.
As I see it Eutelsat is primarily a European broadcast service provider whose footprint(s) happen to cover the UK and Ireland so there is a source of extra revenue there for them over and above their prime European source of revenue.
Does anybody seriously think that for the paltry few thousand subscribers involved in Ireland that Eutelsat are going to waste design time and dollars on producing a special arrangement (if it were possible) so that a few guys in Ireland could get free to air tv from 28.5 ? Nope.[=semper fidelis;69957553]

STB

Thanks Tony

Can you format them into paragraphs as well and remove all the negativity and misinformed notions and guesswork.

Look.

Avanti = Hylas 1 aimed at Europe via 8 regional spot beams. Hylas 1 will be used primarily for providing a broadband solution for rural parts of UK and has only launched. Hylas 2 will have more bandwidth, will not be launched until 2012 and is aimed at the Middle east and Africa. Neither offer the spot beam capability that RTENL have identified as the required geographical and timing solution.

Eutelsat = Kasat which WILL be used by RTENL for spot beam coverage in Ireland.

BTW. Eutelsat group are investing €8m in Ireland building a new satellite communications hub as an essential part of the new KA-SAT infrastructure.

As you have been told previously, it is a solution to Irish coverage to rural/hard to reach areas terrestrially. Any overspill will be similar to terrestrial overspill currently experienced. DX hounds with Nasa size dishes and specialist gear do not count as viewing public.