RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Dr Nic

Can someone please point me to an install guide for Saorview?
What equipment/tv is needed?
Can i just use my existing Sky fta dish and mpeg4 freeview tv?

Tony

Wrong forum, try terrestrial

Dr Nic wrote: »

Can someone please point me to an install guide for Saorview?
What equipment/tv is needed?
Can i just use my existing Sky fta dish and mpeg4 freeview tv?

watty

Dr Nic wrote: »

Can someone please point me to an install guide for Saorview?
What equipment/tv is needed?
Can i just use my existing Sky fta dish and mpeg4 freeview tv?

www.saortv.info

It uses an Aerial.

"Freeview" TV? Maybe, mostly not. http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Some non-"Freeview HD" TVs do MPEG4 HD properly, most don't.

Sky dish no use for Saorview (uses Aerial). IF Saorsat starts in April/May 2011, the Sky dish is no use for it either.

STB

Two important thing to note.

RTE chose the Eutelsat KA spot beam as a solution first of all to provide a FTA satellite system for the hard to reach spots with terrestrial network and to reduce the number of tx sites. That is the economic aspect to servicing hard to reach places.

They also chose it because of its narrow spot beam specifically set over 26 counties which is all about being able to broadcast FTA without raising rights holders concerns.

This is the first time the opportunity has presented itself in conjunction with digital rollout.

lucernarian

STB wrote: »

Two important thing to note.

RTE chose the Eutelsat KA spot beam as a solution first of all to provide a FTA satellite system for the hard to reach spots with terrestrial network and to reduce the number of tx sites. That is the economic aspect to servicing hard to reach places.

They also chose it because of its narrow spot beam specifically set over 26 counties which is all about being able to broadcast FTA without raising rights holders concerns.

This is the first time the opportunity has presented itself in conjunction with digital rollout.

I believe under the mandate of the broadcasting act and with an MoU that explicitly allows for cross border broadcasting, I imagine they wanted a spot beam that would also cover the remaining 6 counties?

STB

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I believe under the mandate of the broadcasting act and with an MoU that explicitly allows for cross border broadcasting, I imagine they wanted a spot beam that would also cover the remaining 6 counties?

No, dont think you are right there. That will be dealt with terrestrially from tx's into NI and also within NI on Freeview via Brougher and Divis and a couple of fill in's.

The pattern that I have seen is very restricted.

lucernarian

STB wrote: »

No, dont think you are right there. That will be dealt with terrestrially from tx's into NI and also within NI on Freeview via Brougher and Divis and a couple of fill in's.

The pattern that I have seen is very restricted.

The specific spot beam hasn't been shown yet from Eutelsat but Watty's maps would suggest coverage in most of NI except Co. Antrim with a basic dish with only a larger one needed further northeast. I assume there's separate benefits to having DTT coverage too, redundancy etc.

STB

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The specific spot beam hasn't been shown yet from Eutelsat but Watty's maps would suggest coverage in most of NI except Co. Antrim with a basic dish with only a larger one needed further northeast. I assume there's separate benefits to having DTT coverage too, redundancy etc.

Well this is what I have seen as coverage.

How rigid those beams will behave is not known yet.

rlogue

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I believe under the mandate of the broadcasting act and with an MoU that explicitly allows for cross border broadcasting, I imagine they wanted a spot beam that would also cover the remaining 6 counties?

They also have a mandate to broadcast TV to the Irish communities abroad or have they not got around to reading the appropriate Act?

lucernarian

Is there also a requirement under the broadcasting act for all RTE-originated broadcasts to be freely available and receivable by the public? In the case of TV, once a license is paid for a set?

That's a problem if so, as any satellite broadcasting to ex-pats might have to be of a free-to-air nature and quite unaffordable as a result. But I'd love to see some facilitation happen in any case. That's for another thread though...

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Is there also a requirement under the broadcasting act for all RTE-originated broadcasts to be freely available and receivable by the public? In the case of TV, once a license is paid for a set?

That's a problem if so, as any satellite broadcasting to ex-pats might have to be of a free-to-air nature and quite unaffordable as a result. But I'd love to see some facilitation happen in any case. That's for another thread though...

Only to Public in Ireland.

Any service for Irish Abroad has to be a different service.

Only People in Ireland Pay an Irish TV licence, and it is NOT for RTE, it's for having a Receiving apparatus.

Also there is prioritisation in Broadcasting:
1) People in the 26 Counties
2) People in the 6 Counties
3) Recently added by Government: People abroad. (Which People? UK is fraction. Surely people in Australia, Canada and USA etc have far more need of Irish services than People in Mainland UK and should be served first). Not a requirement to supply existing services, but a specially designed service.

The Government hasn't so far put a cent into the Upgrade of PSB broadcasting from Analogue 4:3 to Digital WS and HD. This is costing nearly €100M and done on a Shoe string (maybe 49 sites intead of a more realistic 140+ sites!)

Irish TV & Radio abroad should follow the DW model and be separately funded by Government if Government is going to insist on this service for People that will neither pay TAx nor TV Licence. It's a disgrace in UK that Con-Dems has cut BBC World funding to Zero and demand the BBC fund it. What will happen is that it will be massively cut back (even more than it has been in last few years) and become cheaper content.

Anyway we 100% need external services. Near Criminal that such services on Radio not started in 1920s or 1930s.

But the priority is the surely the people living in Ireland?
Saorsat is a fill in for those that can't get Terrestrial.
A much cheaper solution than the French have.

lucernarian

Watty, perhaps that discussion should be in a different thread? Saorsat is not going to meet the needs of ex-pats clearly. My question was just a legalistic clarification. Surely ex-pats wouldn't suddenly become entitled to watch RTÉ on payment of the license fee for a TV while abroad:)

watty

STB wrote: »

Well this is what I have seen as coverage.

How rigid those beams will behave is not known yet.

Those are not footprints or beams They are Service Areas.

These are more like Footprints. The "hot" part of the spot may be twice diameter (x4 area) of the "Service Area". It would vary with rain a lot, except the system is adaptive and varies power on each spot independently, decreasing it in clear sky and increasing it with rain. At least the VSAT does. This might vary the Saorsat virtual Transponder powers.

The spots are slightly ellipsoid as we are about 52 north and 5W to 8W. and the satellite is 36,000km above equator at 9E.

Irish Footprint if no Interference from French Spot, no French Internet
Note that dish sizes are indicative and might be quite different.
(70cm = 60cm to 80cm, 110cm might be only 80cm if the 70cm is 55cm)

The satellite has 4x large dishes. Beam width is much less on Ka than Ku for same size dish.

Artist's rendering of Ka-Sat.
Each Solar panel sail is we think 20m long!
So big dishes.



Irish Footprint with Dish for London and French Footprint
London might get French Signal or just Interference
Dish size used or needed does not affect the degree of Interference
Between French and Irish Signals versus location.

If the French Spot has signals on same frequencies as Irish Spot, then all of Scotland outside the 110cm contour using a hypothetical "big dish" likely has too much French Interference.
Purple/Magenta shaded areas would have massive French Interference, if services are running for the French spot.

Conclusion:
Even with "ordinary" Ka-band, you would need a big dish to get Irish spot in rain in London. I don't know if it would be 110cm or 2.5m.
If there is any service on the French spot near English channel, then it doesn't matter what size dish is needed. It's doubtful that the interference between the two signals is low enough even a few km inland from Welsh coast.

From Updated http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage
(Please copy images with Credits rather than "hot links)


Simplified explanation
Imagine a very tall pole in middle of football pitch with two high power spots that overlap, but shine on different parts of the pitch. The centre of each "footprint" on the ground is brightest.

Imagine each is flashing morse code at same speed. In the middle of each spot it's easy to read.
Equadistant between two spots overlap it's still very bright. But you can't read the morse code.

Imagine background noise (the Sun or Moon ), instead of pitch dark. Then the ratio of wanted and unwanted (how far you can move between the same spots) is poorer.

It makes little difference how bright the equally strong spots are and it makes NO difference how good your light detector is (Receiving dish).

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Watty, perhaps that discussion should be in a different thread? Saorsat is not going to meet the needs of ex-pats clearly. My question was just a legalistic clarification. Surely ex-pats wouldn't suddenly become entitled to watch RTÉ on payment of the license fee for a TV while abroad:)

No. Because it doesn't even entitle you to have RTE reception in Ireland. It's essentially a licence to have a "receiving apparatus" (any number of them in one household).

You need a TV licence in Ireland even if only connected to a Dish that can only get Turksat (which isn't even EU TV).

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

No. Because it doesn't even entitle you to have RTE reception in Ireland. It's essentially a licence to have a "receiving apparatus" (any number of them in one household).

You need a TV licence in Ireland even if only connected to a Dish that can only get Turksat (which isn't even EU TV).

That wasn't my point. While you're not entitled to watch it automatically once the license is paid, you're definitely not entitled to watch RTE broadcasts without a paid TV set license (in this jurisdiction). That's why I stuck in the mention of the license.

watty

You can Watch RTE freely without an Irish TV licence outside of Irish State. Of course people in UK have to pay a UK Tv licence.

Basically without a change in law there is no connection between TV licence and actual Viewing of RTE (in or outside the State).

It's not an Annual Pay TV fee.

FRIENDO

@ Watty,
On the services areas shown I see an overlap on the east coast from approx Co. Louth down to Waterford City. Is it possible we will get future interference in this area.

watty

Alternate Frequency band or Polarisation allows four times as many spots and no holes in service area.

No.
There are four different flavours of "spots" or service areas. Neighbouring service areas use different polarisation, or band or both.

KA-SAT coverage (Four different colors show frequency /Polarisation reuse)

See top left pyramid of "smarties"
Scotland = Blue
Ulster, West Scotland = Dark orange
Ireland = Olive/Lemon
England = Pale Orange
South West England = Blue

France (Calais) = Olive/Lemon

See Spain?
Center Spain is Blue, then around that, pale Orange, Olive/Lemon, Dark Orange, Olive/Lemon, Dark Orange, Olive/Lemon.

Close up showing closest service area with same parameters as Ireland

Only Ireland and French Calais Spot coloured for clarity (sort of Olive rather than Lemon).

We don't know yet the relationship to actual part of Ka-Band and Horizontal or vertical polarisation the spots represent.

The Frequency/Polarisation reuse allows

Alternate Frequency band or Polarisation allows four times as many spots and no holes in service area. as in fact the Service Areas overlap more than is shown in the map with circles. Hence the overall map.


Read http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage to see why there are only four combinations.
It would make the spacecraft (satellite) very much heavier and more complicated to have more than four combinations which is the proven mathematical minimum to fill an arbitary map with no two same colours (mix of Frequency and Polarisation) touching.
The "real" footprints are about four times areas of the small service spots. Hence no two neighbour "services" can use same frequency AND polarisation. Skew will be a really important adjustment to reject a Neighbour on similar frequency but opposite polarisation.

As absolute minimum you need BER meter for DVB-S2 for KA-Sat, not just a level meter.

Butch Cassidy

We have a Walker that was bought maybe two years ago. Would this be compatible with Soarview?

watty

Probably not. But depends on Model Wrong Forum, Wrong thread. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=56
See also http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/

This thread is purely about the proposed Satellite service that might be available after April 2011 (using Dish, new type Ka-LNBF and DVB-S2 HD Set-box). See also http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/

buggane

Latest news from launch site says Ka Sat delayed until Dec 28th.

If not then next launch window Jan 16-31 2011.

buggane

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dec. 28, 2010, 03:51 Baikonur Time: A Proton to launch a KA-SAT satellite built by EADS Astrium for Eutelsat. (As of June 2010, the mission was expected in November-December 2010. As of February 2010, the launch was planned for November 2010 - January 2011. It was then set for Nov. 25, but by the middle of September, the launch was re-scheduled for Dec. 20, 2010.)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Two days after the Proton launch failure on Dec. 5, 2010, International Launch Services, ILS announced that preparations for the scheduled Proton launch with KA-SAT satellite on December 20 had continued. The fueling of the Briz-M upper stage for this mission was completed on Dec. 6, 2010, ILS said. According to the company's press-release, an interim report was expected "in approximately one week that may include details on the respective performance of the Block DM-03 upper stage built and operated by RKK Energia and the three lower Proton M stages, all built and operated by Khrunichev." Such phrasing obviously hinted the possibility of isolating the latest launch failure to the Block DM-03 upper stage, thus clearing the next mission with Briz-M for flight. ILS stressed that the failed mission "was a maiden flight of the Block DM-03 upper stage, which is a derivative of Energia’s Block DM-3. If the current failure scenario was confirmed, the Proton could be cleared for the return to flight as soon as December 10 or even December 9, 2010, ILS hoped.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Around Dec. 10, 2010, officials responsible for the mission, stopped preparations at a 12-day readiness level, while waiting for the review of the investigation into the crash of the previous launch with GLONASS satellites. The pre-launch processing of the Proton rocket with the KA-SAT communications satellite has been stopped, while the spacecraft's owner -- Eutelsat -- reviews the results of the accident investigation with the insurance industry. Despite the delay, Proton operators hoped to resume launch preparations during the week of Dec. 13, enabling the mission to take off before the end of the year. If end-of-the-year deadline could not be met, KA-SAT would have next opportunity to lift off between Jan. 18 and Jan. 31, 2011, after Orthodox Christmas holidays in Russia.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]By Dec. 19, ILS had been given clearance to proceed with preparations for KA-SAT launch, which was expected to take place on Dec. 28, 2010, at 03:51 Moscow Time.[/FONT]

John1000

Saorsat covers NI too, so the cost of this will be 1.5M per year
plus the cost of the broadcasting rights for NI? What about TV3? Will
they want to broadcast in NI too?

lucernarian

John1000 wrote: »

Saorsat covers NI too, so the cost of this will be 1.5M per year
plus the cost of the broadcasting rights for NI? What about TV3? Will
they want to broadcast in NI too?

Broadcasting rights in NI are pretty much paid for... Ask yourself, why are there a number of analogue RTE transmitters along the border already?

watty

To transmit to N.I. Deliberate policy over 30 years ago...

warlikedave

watty wrote: »

To transmit to N.I. Deliberate policy over 30 years ago...

Aye but times have changed - maybe it needs to reflect the mutual relationship a bit more (with a mutual sharing of channels) :P anyways thats for another topic...any more news on SaorSat?

watty

About a weeks time maybe it will launched... (28th or 29th maybe)
Then it takes about 11 weeks to test & commission if all goes well.

Edit Blog update
http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-satjoint-ops-restarted/

Apogee

EADS Astrium wrote:

Baikonur, 23 December 2010 - Eutelsat’s Ka-Sat satellite is now in the final stages of being prepared for launch by an ILS Proton M / Breeze M launch vehicle. The spacecraft was flown from Astrium’s Toulouse site to the Baikonur Cosmodrome on 17 November and has been fuelled and mated to the Breeze M upper stage. Combined operations with the launcher had been temporary stopped awaiting results of the commission investigating the recent Proton M/Block DM-03 launch failure. These have now resumed following the Proton clearance for launch. The launch is now scheduled for the 27 December at 3:51 Baikonur time (26 December 2010 at 21:51 UT).

Built by Astrium on a Eurostar E3000 platform, the 6.1 tonne satellite is the first to be fully optimised to provide broadband internet access to all European citizens, making a core contribution to bridging the digital divide for consumers and businesses beyond the range of terrestrial broadband. At its launch, KA-SAT will be the world’s most powerful satellite, with a total capacity of more than 70 Gbps, 35 times the throughput of traditional Ku-band satellites.

From its location in orbit at 9 degrees East, KA-SAT will provide complete coverage across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin through its 82 spotbeams in Ka-band. The Tooway broadband service will be boosted to delivery speeds of up to 10 Mbps download and 4 Mbps upload, meeting expectations of current and future domestic Internet users. KA-SAT will also represent a versatile platform for data communications, local and regional broadcasting, IPTV and emerging video applications needing ultra high-bit rates such as HD digital cinema.

http://www.astrium.eads.net/node.php?articleid=6278


http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-sat-gallery

Apogee

ILS wrote:

+ KA-SAT ILV
Posted by ILS Launch Team, 3:22 a.m. EST on 23 December 2010 | 0 Comments

The ILV rolled out the Breeze M fueling station yesterday
afternoon. The first day of fueling was completed yesterday
evening, and now we are on to day two. Tonight is the State
Commission meeting to authorize rollout to the launch pad.
If we receive authorization, we’ll start the rollout to
the launch pad at 6:30 a.m. tomorrow morning, Baikonur time.

www.ilslaunch.com


Eutelsat W2A, 12703.83 Vertical, 5632, 3/4, MPEG: 4:2:0, No encryption

egal

Is the Humax Freesat HD receiver compatible with Saorsat?

Would I be able to receive both services - Freesat and Saorsat - with a single Humax Freesat HD box?

I have Freesat at the moment. What extra would I need to receive Saorsat as well (if and when it's up and running)?

Can the signal from two dishes be input to a single box?