RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

warlikedave

sorry but i only just got in the door and am busy with stuff so i didnt have time to troll through the 60 odd pages for the answer at this moment in time - just thought id ask since i saw someone online here :cool:

Tony

Was not referring to you specificially Dave but in any case trolling through 60 pages is not necessary, search function will do it in seconds.

Apogee

warlikedave wrote: »

i didnt have time to troll through the 60 odd pages

I thought that was supposed to be semper fidelis job ...

Tony

Apogee wrote: »

I thought that was supposed to be semper fidelis job ...

Good one

watty

Apogee wrote: »

No, you can't get a combo Ka/Ku for the same orbital position though Eutelsat have patented an approach.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0088729.html


Some of the Tooway dishes have a facility to receive both Ka and Ku band frequencies from the same orbital location by using a modified Gregorian dish setup. The Ka transceiver sits in front of the subreflector while the Ku LNBF sits behind the subreflector. The subreflector is transparent to Ku signal but reflects Ka signal.

I asked them what was in the disc. No-one would tell me. Maybe they didn't know. I can easily envisage a disc that allows high frequencies through and reflects low frequencies (Mesh). It must be the RF equivelent of Dichroic Filter used on PAR Bulbs (reflects light, passes IR to make spot cooler).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichroic_filter

I'm not sure though that the quoted patent is the relevent one.

warlikedave
Pretty much everything in the thread is summarised here http://www.techtir.ie/saortv (technical) and here http://www.saortv.info (for non-technical) Though in fact the question about Ku & Ka from same position isn't answered. maybe I need to add this answer to Techtir.ie someplace, but it's not relevant for Saortv.info as very few of Public using 9E Ku services.

If any one spots anything missing let me know.

Apogee

watty wrote: »

I asked them what was in the disc.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=JBIOAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false





http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=132722

Sam Russell

I suppose it is a clever version of a diplexor. Things can be easier at microwave frequencies.

dowtchaboy

Sam Russell wrote: »

I suppose it is a clever version of a diplexor. Things can be easier at microwave frequencies.

Yeah I remember a quote from someone - "at microwave frequencies it's less like electronics and more like plumbing.....". Certainly trying to work out why a Squarial worked the way it did had me doubting my electronics and RF education.

The Cush

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=37258

January 14, 2011

Eutelsat... Perfect Positioning (Satellite)

[SatNews] Following the successful completion of all scheduled manoeuvres since launch, the KA-SAT satellite is now positioned at its definitive location in geostationary orbit at 9 degrees East.

Ordered by Eutelsat from EADS Astrium, KA-SAT is entirely innovative in design. The satellite is configured with more than 80 spotbeams, with a network of ten ground stations connecting to the Internet backbone. The KA-SAT program will deliver efficient resources for the mass-market delivery of the Tooway™ consumer broadband service, targeted at users across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin located beyond range of ADSL networks. With a throughput of more than 70 Gigabits per second, KA-SAT will be capable of serving over one million users who expect bandwidth and prices comparable to ADSL2 performance.

Eutelsat will also drive the development of satellite-based consumer broadband services with triple-play capability, by combining broadband services in the Ka-band, through KA-SAT, with the reception of TV channels in the Ku-band. In order to facilitate the availability of high-performance triple-play equipment at competitive prices.

http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?number=370463175

KA-SAT successfully in orbit
Editor ©RapidTVNews | 14-01-2011

Not counting chickens before they hatch, or even malfunction hours after launch Eutelsat Communications has announced that after completing all scheduled manoeuvres since launch, the KA-SAT satellite is now positioned at its definitive 9° East location.

The satellite’s payload was activated on 8 January, enabling what the operator claims as Europe’s first high throughput satellite to begin a series of in-orbit tests, which will be followed by the final phase of integrated validation of the satellite with the network of ground stations that will connect to the Internet backbone. Eutelsat says that commercial entry into service is on track for the end of May 2011.

Eutelsat also confirmed full deployment of the solar panels, giving a total wing span of almost 40 metres, and the deployment of the four antennas which will deliver reach of Europe and the Mediterranean Basin via 82 spotbeams with each spotbeam delivering total capacity of 900 Mbps. These will support services needing high throughput and quality including regional television and newsgathering.

Read more: KA-SAT successfully in orbit | News | Rapid TV News http://www.rapidtvnews.com/index.php/201101149787/ka-sat-successfully-in-orbit.html#ixzz1AzwUZX1N

Eutelsat press release

watty

Same thing, but different fake photo:
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-launch#comment-1004382

Slightly longer version http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/14/ka-sat-commissioning-started/

watty

I'd suggested to Christian Lyngemark a little while ago that now was time to maybe have Ka Satellites added to www.lyngsat.com but at the time he thought not.

He has now added Ka only birds recently.
http://www.lyngsat.com/europe.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html

http://www.lyngsat.com/america.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv99.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/space3.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/dtv103.html

Hylas1, though a recent Ka launch has Ku also. Not too sure why lyngsat has it at 61E?
http://www.avantiplc.com/satellite-fleet/hylas-1/about-hylas-1 Supposed to be 33W?


Scary Ka Band experimenter page, nearly 2 years old http://www.uhf-satcom.com/kaband/


We don't know yet which part of Ka-band Saorsat / Irish spot will be. There will only be one polarisation and band needed, so Tone and Voltage switching can be ignored:
These need a horn added: They are for VSAT.
http://www.tradekorea.com/product-detail/P00064829/Ka_Band_Single_LNB_Applications.html
http://www.all4sat.com/lnbs-low-noise-block/ka-band.html

Wistron are a likely supplier
http://www.wneweb.com/press/news/20030516.htm

Note the Ka / Ku multifeeds on page 4 are Ka Circular Polarisation for DirecTV. No use for Ka-Sat
http://www.wneweb.com/download/WNC_DBS_2010.pdf

Still too early to buy a Ka band LNB or LNBF till we have more information.

watty

Ka-Sat set to lose title of highest Capacity (70Gbps / 82 spot) Satellite in the World this Summer 2011.

2011-01-13 -

Carlsbad, Calif. – ViaSat Inc. (NASDAQ: VSAT) has rescheduled the launch of its high-capacity satellite ViaSat-1 with International Launch Services (ILS) to summer 2011. The delay provides additional time for repair and testing after the satellite was damaged while being moved during the testing process. All costs related to the repair and re-testing of the satellite are being assumed by the manufacturer of ViaSat-1, Space Systems/Loral, a subsidiary of Loral Space & Communications Inc.

ViaSat-1 is designed to be the first “media-enabled” satellite, with the capacity to serve the accelerating growth in bandwidth demand for multimedia Internet access over the next decade. The high capacity Ka-band spot beam satellite has planned coverage over North America. With U.S. capacity estimated at 130 Gbps, ViaSat-1 is expected to be (at launch) the highest capacity satellite in the world.

http://www.viasat.com/news/viasat-reschedules-launch-viasat-1

I think 110 spots?

Viasat is partner with Eutelsat for Ka-Sat and operates Wildblue Ka-Band (61 spots provided by two satellites in USA)

lucernarian

watty wrote: »

Wistron are a likely supplier
http://www.wneweb.com/press/news/20030516.htm

That article is 7 years old watty, I assume someone, somewhere has made an appropriate Ka LNB since?:)

watty

Maybe soon..

Because all linear polarised Ka is on VSAT. The LNBs with a flange. They are readily available. That's what Tooway probably uses.

The only DTH TV is DirecTV, it's circular polarised. Different LNBF design. No use for Saorsat.

Likely Wistron will have them. Saorsat will be the first Domestic TV using linear polarisation on Ka-Band.

I will publish a simple horn for vsat waveguide Ka LNB for this dish

Has advantage that the horn won't need a rain cover and will be "hidden" inside box. There is a secondary reflector on rear of front cover as it's a Cassegrain type dish inside the box.

See http://www.techtir.ie/how-to/make-sat-lnb-feed-horn
Simpler design and dimensions before May 2011 for an off the shelf VSAT style Ka Band LNB.
But we don't know which part of Ka band to order yet. Polarisation is done by simply mounting at correct angle as it's Horizontal or Vertical. Not both. The LNBs with waveguide connection and no feed for VSAT have no tone switch and are fixed single polarisation. The Irish Spot will indeed be single part of band and fixed polarisation.

If you want to use the horn design on a regular solid dish arm or Triax multi-feed bar, then just put a plastic drink bottle over it to keep water out. Or a stretchy rubbery thing.

Kotek Besar

In all fairness, if I were looking for an LNB and it didn't have a flange, I wouldn't buy it.

watty

Most people here mean LNBF (integral feed) when they say LNB though!

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Hylas1, though a recent Ka launch has Ku also. Not too sure why lyngsat has it at 61E?
http://www.avantiplc.com/satellite-fleet/hylas-1/about-hylas-1 Supposed to be 33W?

It was hanging around 61° E for a while now but I see from http://www.n2yo.com/?s=37237 it's now moving westwards (31° E as I post).

Maybe some in-orbit coverage testing from different postions before it reaches its final location.

Avanti are planning more satellites to serve different markets according to this report

Avanti CEO David Williams said the company had big plans for the future.

"Hylas-1 is the first of what will be many satellites," he explained. "We've already got our second satellite under construction at the moment and that launches in about 15 months' time.

"That will put more capacity into the UK but also it puts new capacity into new areas in Africa and the Middle East. And then we are planning more satellites for Latin America, India and other parts of Asia."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11846237

Apogee

A PDF presentation by Mary Curtis on "Media is Evolving". Nothing new in it, other than it's one of the few official RTÉ docs which mentions Saorsat.

http://tvsales.rte.ie/downloads/Mary%20Curtis.pdf

Mary Curtis, RT&#201 wrote:

Saorsat
• Free-to-air satellite service
• Will complement the terrestrial DTT service
• Will cover last 2% of population who cannot receive Saorview
• Combined offering will, for the first time, offer 100% coverage of
free-to-air public service TV services in the Republic of Ireland
• Available from second quarter of 2011

And from a Comreg consultation document on market dominance issues:

Comreg wrote:

To date, satellite TV services (e.g. Sky and freesat) in Ireland have been carried by wide-band satellites in the KU spectrum (such as ASTRA 2D for example) which have a footprint greater than Ireland. A new narrow-band satellite operating in a different frequency band (using Ka spectrum) and orbital position, which would have a spot beam transponder focused specifically on Ireland, is expected to be launched this year. It is envisaged that RTÉ‟s Saorsat option would use this satellite as this is expected to overcome any significant potential rights issues that might occur for RTÉ if they were to broadcast from any other existing satellite.

The Saorsat option has some potential to change the dynamic behind the entry barriers. If the vast majority of households had the ability and willingness to erect a satellite dish then the logic of the European Commission would naturally hold and the second criterion would no longer be met. However, data shows that around 49% of households with a TV have a satellite service. Although others may also have an inactive dish erected, it still remains the case that a significant number of households have so far been unable or unwilling to erect a satellite dish.

In addition, given that these existing household satellite dishes are pointing towards satellites such as ASTRA 2D; to receive Irish channels on a free to air basis, it is unlikely that households would adjust their dishes towards the direction of the narrow-band satellite from which Saorsat may operate and lose out on all the other services that they currently receive.63 Thus, the impact of the Saorsat platform would not be such that the dynamic towards potential competition would change.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

A PDF presentation by Mary Curtis on "Media is Evolving". Nothing new in it, other than it's one of the few official RTÉ docs which mentions Saorsat.

http://tvsales.rte.ie/downloads/Mary%20Curtis.pdf



And from a Comreg consultation document on market dominance issues:

Why on http://tvsales.rte.ie/
It seems a PDF of a powerpoint and spends 4 pages on Radio where one would do.

Maybe there is a better talk that goes with it as some of the pages seem pointless.

The Comreg thing looks the usual.
Comparison to show that Comreg is doing job.
Presented so Comreg only gets answers to what they want to hear.
Ends 20th Jan 2011

Given that payTV has 80% of market and most of the content watched is either Irish + UK FTA or Sky controlled I can't see any problem.
There should of course be

• 4 MUX operated by RTE NL instead of two
• RTE NL should have no connection to RTE (no shared managers/directors)
• Anyone wholesale access to the Saorview + Saorsat platform, without need for PayTV or PayTV licence. Just per channel BAI approval like Cable.
• Saorstat should be exact copy of Saorview.
• Sky should be registered here and charging Irish VAT and same ex VAT prices as UK. (They don't)
• Should be forced to enable Diseqc for "other channels" (simple OTA software change) so that a Sky HD box works on Saorsat 19E, Astra and Hotbird 13 etc. Sky don't own the boxes, the subscriber does from day 1.
• Sky enable CI on the rear of box for other PayTV operators. Sky don't own the boxes. (simple OTA software change)
• Sky should be forced to enable PVR for FTA other channels and other operator's CAM pay Channels, even if no Sky sub. Sky don't own the boxes. (simple OTA software change)
• Sky EPG charges?
• Sky Encryption charges?
• Sky Card management Charges?
• Compare Sky wholesale charges for EPG/Encryption etc to Freesat, Canal+, Cyfra, Real Digital TV etc.

I recommend folk to respond to http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1098.pdf before Thurs 20th Jan 2011

Why has Comreg not done this exercise properly for Sky? Lets use this consultation to highlight Sky's uncompetitive practices.

lensman

I have a mum in law in donegal & I intend to setup a saorsat system for her when available,..I don't have the time to read through 70 pages of posts so can anyone give me a few answers ?
1 what sat & position will be used
2 dish/lnb type & reciever required
3 is there a test signal in operation at the moment
thanks

watty

lensman wrote: »

I have a mum in law in donegal & I intend to setup a saorsat system for her when available,..I don't have the time to read through 70 pages of posts so can anyone give me a few answers ?
1 what sat & position will be used
2 dish/lnb type & reciever required
3 is there a test signal in operation at the moment
thanks

Are you sure you can't get Terrestrial?

3) No. There is unlikely to be a signal before May.

2) A domestic LNB isn't available yet. You need a Ka-band LNBF. See http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/ and http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/ The receiver needs to be DVB-S2 and HD with MHEG5. In theory a "Freesat HD" box would work. But there are some pitfalls. Especially if you want Freesat also.

1) 99.99% sure it's Ka-Sat http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/14/ka-sat-commissioning-started/

Discussion on Reception http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003507

Conclusion:
Still too early to consider install. Wait till ka-LNBF is available unless you are good at DIY metal work to add a horn to waveguide/flange type LNB intended for VSAT use. Only Ka Band LNBs for VSAT are available.

Saorview (via Aerial) is available now and will be on more transmitters this year. Saorsat at best is a more expensive to install copy, nothing extra on it.

Even if wanting to go the DIY LNBF route, wait till RTE NL starts transmission. Then you need to decide on dedicated Saorsat dish with no Freesat (or separate existing Sky/Freesat dish)

44cm Cassegrain Dish with Internal Ka Band LNBF

Or a Multifeed for Freesat and Saorsat which needs a DVB-S2 HD receiver that supports Diseqc switching.

Freesat --- Astra -- Hotbird -Saorsat

If wanting Saorsat and Freesat you need Diseqc switch or multiswitch to combine the LNBs on same or separate dishes. Sky Pay TV or Sky box out of sub can be used on Freesat dish/feed directly (quad LNBF) or on a Multiswitch as default would be Sky signal.

lensman

Thanks watty,..no terrestrial is a non runner I'd say, it's a valley location & even the old analogue service was via a small private relay aerial on a hill overlooking the valley,...even that had problems as the power for the relay was from a locals cow shed & when he was using electricial equipment in the shed the reception in the valley became unwatchable,...made him a popular guy:D........saying that I'll take my laptop & usb DTT stick up there & see what happens....is there a list of saorview enabled RTE transmitters I could check,..
Truskmore might be an option

watty

http://www.techtir.ie/tv-radio/Irish-DTT-Sites
Not sure of any dates of the Donegal sites not active yet.

So wait till June/July. One or two months after Saorsat starts and then review the Terrestrial Saorview and review / revise what is needed for Satellite.
All the UK Freesat & Saorsat on one box is attractive, especially for PVR.

jeffwode

Watty. I read your response to the link you posted. Will a Humax HD freesat box using an existing Sky dish and LNB work for Soarsat as well as UK freesat?

Also, we're in the Clermont cairn coverage area (Co Louth) and get a pretty clear analogue signal for the RTE channels at present. My second question is this, Should we be able to pick up a digital freeview signal for RTE at present? Would an analogue antenna pointed at Clermont cairn also pick up a digital signal transmitted from the same location? Thanks

watty

No
A Sky dish is no use at all. An LNB or LNBF for Sky or any other Ku-Band service will not work. Mesh dishes and most Perforated dishes like Sky dish will not work. Also the Ka-Band LNBF must point at 9E, not 28.2E where Sky/Freesat is received from

More people now can get Saorview via aerial than TG4 or TV3, and at good quality, more than RTE1 & RTE2
Clermont cairn has had Digital for over 4 years.

Official Nationwide Prelaunch Launch 29th October 2010 http://www.saortv.info/2010/11/14/saorview-technical-launch/
Full Launch this May 2011

No such thing as Analogue or Digital Aerials. It's just a UHF Aerial. You should get it fine on a Set-box or Suitable TV.
http://www.saortv.info/

jeffwode

Thanks. That's what I thought. Good to have it confirmed.

The Cush

Slightly OT but ...

SBI signs €5m deal for high-speed broadband via KA-SAT satellite

Satellite Broadband Ireland (SBI) has signed a commercial agreement with Eutelsat Communications to sell broadband services through KA-SAT, the most powerful commercial satellite.

The initial three-year broadband utility contract is worth more than €5m and will let SBI sell Eutelsat’s next-generation Tooway satellite broadband service, with download speeds of up to 10MBps and upload speeds of up to 4MBps.

This service will be provided via Eutelsat’s KA-SAT satellite, which was launched last month and will enter into full commercial service in May 2011.

KA-SAT’s approach is based on next-generation two-way wireless Ka-band spotbeam technology, which reduces the cost of high-bandwidth access to the internet.

SBI will introduce this service to Ireland and will expand it across Europe.

KA-SAT
KA-SAT is an integral part of a new European communications infrastructure which includes eight satellite gateways across Europe, including one in Cork, connected to the internet by a fibre backbone ring.

It’s Europe’s first high-throughput satellite (HTS), with a total capacity of more than 70GBps.

“To build an inclusive digital environment in Ireland, it is vital that broadband is accessible to as many of the 367,000 rural homes as possible,” said Kevin Ryan, SBI chief executive.

“As a result of this partnership with Eutelsat, our customers will be guaranteed access to the fastest and most reliable satellite broadband service at the lowest possible price, with all packages competitively priced.

“We are the only satellite data provider in Ireland giving an Irish IP address as standard, which is vital for accessing websites such as RTE iPlayer,” said Ryan.

Ryan added that the contract, along with an additional €1m investment in their own services, will let them expand into other territories in Europe, such as the UK.

“KA-SAT’s capability to bring transformational satellite broadband services and SBI’s investment and expertise in delivering a first-class customer experience, represent a compelling partnership which will bring new impetus to bridging the digital divide for rural homes and businesses across Ireland,” said Arduino Patacchini, CEO of Skylogic, Eutelsat’s broadband affiliate.

Laura O'Brien

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/20039-sbi-signs-deal-with

Eutelsat Press Release

Can we expect an RTÉ announcement anytime soon?

watty

I'd have been fairly sure Smart, Heanet, Digiweb in the past had Irish IPs on Satellite Connections. I could be wrong. All the current Tooway re-sellers will be selling Ka-Sat Internet capacity (Tooway), so really this isn't news. I see it's via the Irish Tech "press release" website

Most of RTE doesn't get to know what RTE is doing till it's done. If asked to guess, I say RTE or RTE NL will announce something about Saorsat between now( January 2011) and June 2011.

Peddyr

The Cush wrote: »

Slightly OT but ...



Can we expect an RTÉ announcement anytime soon?

Seriously expensive way to get 'broadband' internet. I was thinking about it as an option but I'll stick with with my mobile 3G at £20 a month for 10GB!

watty

Tooway may come down to that. But with of course fixed high latency. If I didn't need mobility, and price was the same, I'd use satellite rather than 3G/HSPA