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Winter 2010-2011 outlook

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Booooo! What a non-descript excuse for a winter. Did Mr Ring predict the Big Freeze we had last year?

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember a very dry October last year too?

    No. He did not. Although to be fair not many other people did either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 347 ✭✭desolate sun


    No. He did not. Although to be fair not many other people did either.

    Great! Cos his prediction sounds rubbish!


  • Registered Users Posts: 138 ✭✭bush Baby


    There's a Swedish saying that the winter will be hard if the Rowan berries are plentiful. And there was loads of rowan berries this year


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    the crop of berries is more to do with the weather conditions of the preceeding months i gather

    i prefer to believe the winter theory though:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭snow ghost


    Booooo! What a non-descript excuse for a winter. Did Mr Ring predict the Big Freeze we had last year?


    There is a 3 year 'window of opportunity' with Ken's premonitions, if it doesn't happen this winter it may have happened in the last 3 or coming 3. ;)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭dexter647


    ken ring speaks through his ring:D... How this guy gets air time is beyond me..


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Low solar activity is expected to cause the winter jet stream to bring bitterly cold Arctic air, writes DICK AHLSTROM

    GLOBAL CLIMATE is warming, with 2010 expected to go down as yet another record year. You can count on our winters being colder than usual, however, at least for the next few years.

    “There is a difference between global climate and regional climate, and there is a very peculiar thing we are finding about the European climate,” says Prof Mike Lockwood of the University of Southampton and the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory. Colder winters are expected because at the moment solar activity is very low.

    Solar activity, in this case, does not mean direct heat or light from the sun but the energy emitted from the solar surface by sunspots. “What we are finding is that Europe and western Asia are particularly prone to solar influences, especially in winter,” Lockwood says. “What we are seeing is much cooler winters if solar activity is low.”

    Last winter was particularly cold here and on the Continent, and low-temperature records were set.

    Lockwood, who is Southampton’s professor of space and climate physics in the school of mathematical and physical sciences, believes we will see more of the same this winter. Climate change naysayers argue that temperature changes come down to a weakening or strengthening sun, but in fact Eurasia’s colder winters will be triggered by the jet stream, Lockwood explains. It is a phenomenon known as “set stream blocking”.

    Sometimes the normal winter flow of the high-altitude jet stream “gets kinked into a reverse S-shape”, says Lockwood. “What happens in a blocking event is the normal flow changes, the warm westerlies get disrupted and we get cold Arctic air from the north and east.”

    This in turn changes the weather we see on the ground. “Although the jet stream is very high up it is known to direct weather patterns further down.”

    The thing that gets the jet stream into a winter twist is none other than the sun, but only when it is not very active.

    “There is no doubt that the frequency of those blocking events in winter is higher when solar activity is low,” says Lockwood. “What was a slight surprise is that the sun was changing the jet stream, but only when the jet stream has travelled across the Atlantic and begins hitting land over Europe.”

    Lockwood believes that the phenomenon may have been responsible for the “Little Ice Age” in Europe, a time between about 1650 and 1700 when people skated on the frozen Thames. During that time astronomers noted that there were no sunspots for 50 years, and Europe became extra cold.

    Scientists have directly monitored solar activity continuously throughout the space age, giving us more than 40 years of data and a chance to assess the links between activity and temperatures, says Lockwood. Activity can also be inferred by other methods, and when examined over time it shows that recent years have seen very high activity.

    “We find the sun typically goes through 400-year to 500-year solar minimums and maximums. This was one of the 24 grand maximums in the past 9,000 years,” he says, putting the recent solar levels in the top 15 per cent.

    All of this is expected to change. Activity has rolled back and is expected to decline still further. “We have returned to the lowest solar-activity conditions since the 1920s,” Lockwood says. “I would anticipate more cold winters in Europe. This is despite and on top of a gradually warming world.”
    source

    Will it/won't it, Will it/won't it :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    i wonder why he sees it so differently to Joe Bastardi.
    i guess experts differ and snow lovers feel the stress:pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭delw


    i wonder why he sees it so differently to Joe Bastardi.
    i guess experts differ and snow lovers feel the stress:pac:
    when do the rollercoaster tickets go on sale or is it too soon ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭force eleven


    delw wrote: »
    when do the rollercoaster tickets go on sale or is it too soon ;)

    Rollercoaster still under construction. Expected opening date - December 1st :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Rollercoaster still under construction. Expected opening date - December 1st :)

    fahrenheit-construction-070-mdn.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    While thats being built how about getting an early ticket aboard the,


    ticket.JPG


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭eskimocat


    To snow or not to snow, that is the question!
    In the interest of ramping and preparing for the ramp.... I bought a SLEIGH!!! Now while I wouldn't consider myself demanding or fussy, just a good 5-8 inches of snow will suffice and I would like it delivered around Christmas time, when I have holidays.

    To prepare for this wondrous event, I will take any ramp going: berries, foxes, El Nino, wandering polar lows, etc.... I will even accept the effect of volcanic ash... Just on one tiny condition


    IT MUST SNOW!!!!!

    :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    (Part 2-La nina moderate - strong)



    Here is the second part showing La Nina periods that are moderate to strong events and how they can affect us this year.

    Remember people this is not what will happen but typical of conditions in the past during La Nina.

    Here are anomalies of geopotential for months in order:
    October:
    71254.png

    Temperatures in parts of western but mostly central europe considerably below normal .





    November:
    71255.png
    Seems like an early winter which brings cold siberian air across much of eastern europe toward mediterranean regions.




    December:
    71256.png



    And what i can gather folks from this chart is that a mid atlantic blocking high forms allowing scandinavia to freeze its ass off.

    Nothing too exciting im afraid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭WolfeIRE


    thanks for that red.

    This of course does not rule some short sharp blasts of 'Deep Easterlies' for us i presume?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Yes let scandinavia freeze up first with cold pushing into the continent and then a good flow of east-north easterly winds lasting for at least a week and no less is really whats needed if this is the case.

    Short blasts of easterlies are not much good if the cold is not already established over us.

    Here's to the march of the great white siberian army.


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭derekon


    Ok folks, I will admit it. I am a snowlover - love the sight of the stuff, the feel of the stuff, watching it fall, watching it settle. Its mesmerising and by far my favourite type of weather.

    However what kills me about snow in Ireland can be summed up in one word.......MARGINALITY.

    This is what drives us nuts on these boards - it can be raining heavy in Ireland in December with a temperature of +3oC. And you know another degree and a fall in the dew point will bring snow. So near yet so far.

    Another very frustrating situation is when there is a pool of cold air over the island of Ireland. Rain comes in off the Atlantic. We all cross our fingers for snow however it turns to sleet at best or in most cases, just rain - which by the way we get in Ireland all bloody year round. :mad:

    Then to make it even more unfair, the weather system crosses the Irish Seas and falls as HEAVY SNOW in Wales.....:mad:

    Truly maddening.

    I am looking forward to this winter however there will be some periods of disappointments for snow lovers - we do have to remember we are only a little island in the middle of the Atlantic after all.

    Also to any newbies on this forum, take any long term predictions of snow (ie over four to five days away) with a major PINCH OF SALT. Some rampers of note include Weathercheck and Darkman2 - some of their posts would nearly have you believing we live inside the Arctic Circle, I joke not!

    Here's to a snowy Winter 2010/2011 in Ireland ! :)

    Derek


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    “Longfellow said that genius is infinite painstaking. John Ruskin declared that genius is only a superior power of seeing. Wilson Bentley was a living example of this type of genius. He saw something in the snowflakes which other men failed to see, not because they could not see, but because they had not the patience and the understanding to look.”
    John Ruskin declared that genius is only a superior power of seeing. Wilson Bentley was a living example of this type of genius. He saw something in the snowflakes which other men failed to see, not because they could not see, but because they had not the patience and the understanding to look.”


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Well personally, I don't get out of bed for anything less than this:

    ddtovloba10-1.jpg

    Guess I'll be staying in bed for a very very long time... :pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Well personally, I don't get out of bed for anything less than this:

    ddtovloba10-1.jpg

    Guess I'll be staying in bed for a very very long time... :pac:

    how long till next ice age? perhaps you could have your body frozen, like Simon Cowell, with instructions to bring you back from the dead once the next ice age is taking hold over Ireland. just a thought:pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Read this paper

    http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/jhurrell/Docs/HurrellandDeser2009.pdf

    Just to say to anyone new to the forum that a major influence to our upcoming winter will be a teleconnection called the NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation).

    For those of you not bothering to read this paper,here is how they describe the term Teleconnection.


    A consequence of the transient behavior of the atmospheric
    planetary-scale waves is that anomalies in climate on seasonal time
    scales typically occur over large geographic regions. Some regions may
    be cooler or perhaps drier than average, while at the same time
    thousands of kilometers away, warmer and wetter conditions prevail.
    These simultaneous variations in climate, often of opposite sign, over
    distant parts of the globe are commonly referred to as [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]teleconnections[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    Now i see on the forum across the water that a fairly stubborn debate was had about whether the NAO is the actual driver.

    What came first, the chicken or egg, is how they put it.

    Here is what the paper says,


    The NAO does not owe its existence to coupled ocean[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    atmosphere[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]land interactions (Thompson et al., 2003; Czaja et al.,
    2003
    ), as is evident from climate model experiments that do not
    include SST, sea ice or land surface variability (
    Hurrell et al., 2003). In
    contrast to the wave-like appearance of the PNA, the NAO is primarily
    a north
    [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]south dipole characterized by simultaneous out-of-phase
    height anomalies between temperate and high latitudes over the
    Atlantic sector.


    Then it goes on to say that maybe the AO (Arctic Oscillation) is perhaps the outer shell of the egg,(if you get where im going with this).

    These issues have been at the center of a
    debate over whether or not the NAO is a regional
    expression of a larger-scale (hemispheric) mode of variability known
    as the NH Annular Mode (NAM;
    or, previously,
    the Arctic Oscillation.

    However it then says,

    The NAM is de
    [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fined as the [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]rst EOF of NH (20°[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]90°N) winter SLP
    data.
    It explains 23% of the extended winter-mean (December[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]March)
    variance, and it is clearly dominated by the NAO structure in the
    Atlantic sector.

    Others have argued that,

    the NAM is a fundamental
    structure of NH climate variability, and that the
    [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]regional[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]NAO
    re
    [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fl[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]ects the modi[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]cation of the annular mode by zonally-asymmetric
    forcings, such as topography and land
    [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+20][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]ocean temperature contrasts. It
    would then follow that the annular mode perspective is critical in
    order to understand the processes that give rise to NAM (or NAO)
    variations.

    Chicken,Egg,Egg Chicken??????????

    there is no unique way to de[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]ne the spatial structure of the
    NAO, it follows that there is no universally accepted index to describe
    the temporal evolution of the phenomenon. Most modern NAO
    indices are derived either from the simple difference in surface
    pressure anomalies between various northern and southern locations,

    Also note what happened this year folks with a very lazy atlantic.
    While not referring to this year,It does point out that,

    the vigorous wintertime NAO
    can interact with the slower components of the climate system (the
    ocean, in particular) to leave persistent surface anomalies into the
    ensuing parts of the year that may signi[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fi[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]cantly in[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fl[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]uence the
    evolution of the climate
    .


    You really need to read the paper for yourselves again and again.

    The summary at the end of it is fairly good.



    I would like to read any thoughts on this please.



    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    to be honest a lot of that went over my head:o
    i understand the nao as a measure of atmospheric pressure at sea. if it's positive, then that's bad news for those who wants to see continental blocks forming, and sustained cold weather, in Ireland


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Oh i thought i simplfied it sorry.

    Lets recap the summary,

    The NAO is the dominant mode of regional climate variability.


    It controls [FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fluctuations in temperature and salinity, vertical mixing, circulation patterns and ice formation of the North Atlantic Ocean, which affects marine biology
    through both direct and indirect pathways.


    There is ample evidence that most of the atmospheric circulation variability in the
    form of the NAO arises from the internal, nonlinear dynamics of the extratropical atmosphere.
    external forces might nudge the atmosphere to assume a high or low NAO index value over a particular month or season
    Within the atmosphere itself, changes in the rate and location of tropical heating have been shown to be one way to in[FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb][FONT=AdvTT5235d5a9+fb]fluence the atmospheric circulation over the
    North Atlantic and, in particular, the NAO. Tropical convection, in turn,
    is sensitive to the underlying SST distribution, which exhibits much
    more persistence than SST variability in middle latitudes. This might
    lead, therefore, to some predictability of the NAO phenomenon
    recent modeling work has shown that the atmospheric response to
    the re-emerging North Atlantic SST tri-pole resembles the phase of the
    NAO that created the SST tri-pole the previous winter, thereby
    modestly enhancing the winter-to-winter persistence of the NAO


    These paragraphs im highlighting should help a bit to see what there saying.


    Remember what Joe B does be on about with his SST (sea surface temperature) theory when he mention tri pole pools of warm and cool water dictating cicumstances,so hopfully the NAO remembers last seasons ripe conditions.
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]



    By all means correct me if my off track here. Im not saying i know this like the back of my hand either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭Su Campu


    I'd recommend picking up César Caviedes' book El Niño in History: Storming through the Ages, as he goes into great detail about the historic events that were affected by global teleconnections, especially the ENSO.

    He speaks about the NAO, and shows this graph, which pretty much sums things up.

    nao_av_d1_0001.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    ptarmigan.jpg

    Webcam from the Scottish Highlands. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭Redsunset


    Thanks Su, i already understand what happens in a positive and negative NAO however im looking to see what other drivers are influencing it.

    Thats why i like that paper. Does that book you mention go into greater detail about why it goes positive and negative,thats really what im interested in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭Su Campu


    redsunset wrote: »
    Thanks Su, i already understand what happens in a positive and negative NAO however im looking to see what other drivers are influencing it.

    Thats why i like that paper. Does that book you mention go into greater detail about why it goes positive and negative,thats really what im interested in.

    Well I have a German copy of it, and it's years since I read it, but as far as I can remember there was a good discussion about the causes, but I'd have to read it again to be sure!

    But in any case, it well worth buying


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,341 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    This is my preliminary winter forecast ... I will issue a final forecast around mid-November.

    Expect the rest of the autumn to become rather mild before this pattern sets up in late November.

    DEC -- This may be the coldest month of the winter for a change. The blocking, retrograde and easterly index values show a peak in my research around mid-December. This would indicate a month similar to Jan 2010 (but probably not as extreme for temperature, perhaps a bit better for snowfall).

    JAN -- With the early start to blocking and easterly flow, January may produce a mid-month reversal to a much more zonal pattern with stormy and mild weather replacing the chill after possibly a week to ten days of continued cold and sometimes snowy weather. The stormy period could peak with the period 18-25 January.

    FEB -- The index values here shift more to mild/dry.

    Last year I had a reasonably accurate winter outlook, but that was issued around 7 November, so would ask that you don't hold me to this preliminary outlook, I'm just sharing it for general interest and perhaps some useful feedback. Some similarity to winter 1981-82 may be evident at least in the timing of spells of cold and milder weather.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭Su Campu


    Some similarity to winter 1981-82 may be evident at least in the timing of spells of cold and milder weather.

    That's good enough for me, bring on another snowstorm like 7th January '82 and I'll be happy!!


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