Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

CatFromHue

Risteard wrote: »

Look at Waldrom in England, spent his entire life in New Zealand and signed for Leicester because he wouldn't get into the WC squad for the All Blacks but then discoverrs he has an Englush granny and wants to play for England all of a sudden.

waldrom is a great example of why 3 years is too short.

when he left nz he said one of the reasons he was going was he would qualify to play international rugby after 3 years.

he only found out about his granny after he landed as he was then looking at other ways he would qualify for england.

check out the link below

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/121843.html

The former Wellington, Hawke's Bay and Crusaders No.8 should feel at home when the Premiership is at its grittiest. A powerful ball-carrier, Waldrom will make the hard yards when required and drag the Tigers pack onto the front-foot where he can. With Moody having upped sticks, there is room for another leader in the pack and Waldrom's lead-by-example style should fit the bill. He may have spoken a little early about his ambitions to qualify for England on residency, but look past his portly frame and you'll see a top-class No.8. Also, with Jordan Crane reported to be out for up to three months with an ankle problem, he could prove to be a valuable signing during the early rounds of the Heineken Cup.

irishbucsfan

I would support increasing the number of years to qualify.

I just find it annoying that a player gets called a mercenary for playing by the rules in a professional sport.

5 years would be right IMO. That's more than an entire World Cup cycle.

Risteard

CatFromHue wrote: »

waldrom is a great example of why 3 years is too short.

when he left nz he said one of the reasons he was going was he would qualify to play international rugby after 3 years.

he only found out about his granny after he landed as he was then looking at other ways he would qualify for england.

check out the link below

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/121843.html

The former Wellington, Hawke's Bay and Crusaders No.8 should feel at home when the Premiership is at its grittiest. A powerful ball-carrier, Waldrom will make the hard yards when required and drag the Tigers pack onto the front-foot where he can. With Moody having upped sticks, there is room for another leader in the pack and Waldrom's lead-by-example style should fit the bill. He may have spoken a little early about his ambitions to qualify for England on residency, but look past his portly frame and you'll see a top-class No.8. Also, with Jordan Crane reported to be out for up to three months with an ankle problem, he could prove to be a valuable signing during the early rounds of the Heineken Cup.

Didn't know he always intended too qualify, that makes it worse. The fact that England who have by far the largest playing base in the world are resorting to playing these players is laughable.

porterbelly

Risteard wrote: »

Didn't know he always intended too qualify, that makes it worse. The fact that England who have by far the largest playing base in the world are resorting to playing these players is laughable.

Cockerhill is a snake though. He's playing everything down. He doesn't want Waldrom going to the WC because he'll be missing for Leicester. He left him off against Quins when he would have been up against Easter, and he preferred Crane to him against Leinster.

tolosenc

As long as he is proud to wear the green, and wants to help the cause, there is no issue for me.

I has to be 3 years. 7 years is much too long. Say you're 23, and move country. Really want to play for the new country, and they really want you. You'd be 30 before you get a cap. Almost nullifying the whole thing.

CatFromHue

tolosenc wrote: »

As long as he is proud to wear the green, and wants to help the cause, there is no issue for me.

I has to be 3 years. 7 years is much too long. Say you're 23, and move country. Really want to play for the new country, and they really want you. You'd be 30 before you get a cap. Almost nullifying the whole thing.

thats the point of making the time frame longer. you have to really want to play for that country.

errlloyd

Whatever about you guys having an issue with us using a residency rule to play Strauss ahead of some home grown talent.

I think before extending the rule you need to look at where its without a doubt a good thing. For example I think its a good thing foreign nationals play for the Italian national side, and have to spend three years in Italy developing the local game to get on the team.

I also think there is a huge difference between players defecting to a worse country, then defecting to a better one. Like Irish cricketers going to England today, or rugby players 40 years ago.

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you mean a large percentage of the rugby-watching population? Because most of them that I've spoken to are excited to see Strauss. Or do you mean the general population? Because the general population have had no problem supporting Cascarinos, Aldridges, Morrisons, Kilbanes or Carsleys.

A few weeks ago there was controversy because 2 soccer players made it known they wanted to play for Ireland. Jamie O'Hara and Jermaine Pennant! Most soccer fans did not want them playing for Ireland.

Brian Kerr came on the radio talking about it too and saying they should not be playing for Ireland.

So why all the fuss? O'Hara waited for an England call up before he suddenly decided he wanted to play for Ireland. Pennant came out of the blue. Probably decided it would be good for his career to play international soccer.

I'm interested to hear what you think of those 2? Should they play for Ireland?

Some Ireland players came out against it too so I'm fairly sure not everybody thinks its grand.

irishbucsfan wrote:

That isn't even close to what I said?

The 3-year rule is in place to stop mercenaries coming to countries for the money. That is enough in my opinion, and obviously in the opinion of others as well.

You'd think they were taking a pay cut to come.

irishbucsfan wrote:

Is he Irish? No. Does that mean he shouldn't be able to represent Irish rugby? No.

Irish nationality and eligibility for the IRFU should be and are two different things. And thank god they are, because it produces higher standards.

Paying for foreigners is actually the easy way out. Its the short term solution. Developing your own players takes longer and more expertise and its very much more satisfying seeing a team take to the field that was developed from their youth instead of being brought in by a chegue book.

Sport is not just about winning at all costs. Winning at all costs is a similar mindset to the greedy bankers who forgot about morals and standards as they went chasing as much money as possible.


Is he Irish? No.

Then wtf is he doing playing for ireland!

CIARAN_BOYLE

errlloyd wrote: »

I also think there is a huge difference between players defecting to a worse country, then defecting to a better one. Like Irish cricketers going to England today, or rugby players 40 years ago.

Anyone else think Visser is the lowest of the low fleeing his native Holland going to England and trying to get an international career after school, later told he wouldn't get one in England and he runs off to the Scots and is currently waiting to qualify under residency??

EDIT I don't really but he seems to be one of the most desperate to play international rugby at a decent standard

SharpshooterTom

What about someone born and bred abroad to irish parents who considers themselves completely irish??

Because lets be honest, nobody considers anybody irish here without an irish accent so why should they be playing for us if they're just nobody's going to consider them irish? (even if they DO themselves as I say consider themselves irish).

CouchSmart

I can't wait to see Strauss in an Ireland jersey. The rules are the way they are and that's that as far as I'm concerned.

Gnobe

Gnobe wrote: »

Because lets be honest, nobody considers anybody irish here without an irish accent so why should they be playing for us if they're just nobody's going to consider them irish? (even if they DO themselves as I say consider themselves irish).

Possibly the most confusing thing I've ever read in my entire life!

CatFromHue

well they qualify as their parents are irish

the argument here is people who have no ties what so ever to a country

i dont think they are the low of the low either, they're not breaking any rules. it happens alot were some one leaves their home country to move to a better place and eventually that becomes their home.

it takes longer than 3 years though.

regarding strauss in an ireland jersey.

i'll never feel the same way about him as i do about shane horgan or sean o brein. they didnt go to a big rugby school just like me. seeing them play for ireland is great and inspiring.

i'll always view strauss in an ireland jersey as a south african who is playing for ireland, nothing more. dont get me wrong i love what he does for leinster and ill want him to play well for ireland. i'll have no emotional attachment to him in the green jersey though as he isnt one of us.

SharpshooterTom

Deleted User wrote: »

Possibly the most confusing thing I've ever read in my entire life!

Sorry it's late at night.

My point is that we have a strict definition of what constitutes as being irish. If these people came and lived in ireland they wouldn't be regarded as irish so why should they be playing for us? Don't we want irish people playing for us instead, and not foreigners??

LeeroyJones

I have no problem whatsoever with players opting for the ancestral country but I think a decision must be made prior to a certain age.
It's a fact of life these days that people are born and grow up in a different country to their family, but many of them will identify with their country of their family and support that country in all sports. However, sometimes they don't - sometimes they will cut ties with their ancestral home and adopt their country of birth.
Either case is fine by me, but at the age of 20 or so they have a clear idea of which country they identify with so a definitive decision should be made then. It's true that some people will feel a tie to both countries, but a decision should still be made - perhaps it would be a difficult one, but should be made all the same in order for the system to work.

Residency is another kettle of fish.

On one hand you could have some young lad who migrated to Ireland with his parents at an early age. Quite often in this case he would go to school here and integrate into Irish society and become part of Irish society. If he grows up as a good rugby player/footballer or whatever I believe he should be fully entitled to play for Ireland

On the other hand, you have lads who may have grown up in one country, became a good athlete and by virtue of that moved country to somewhere that offered him a top-dollar to ply his trade there. I don't think it's right to allow him play for that country. At the rate French clubs are importing the French national side could potentially be more like the Barbarians wearing blue!

Perhaps the answer both in granny-rule and residency is to make a definitive decision at about 20/21. At that age you're grown up, you know who you are and what you identify with.

totallegend

We are gone totally off- topic here lads; there is no right answer to whether he should be picked for Ireland (but he will be).

durkadurka

AT the end of the day a rule has to be objective and leave little or no room for judgement.

I agree the three year rule is a bit too easy, and leaves room for mercenaries.

Individual cases make bad law IMO :

Take me for example. I'm a 100 % dubliner with four grandparents from munster who went on holidays in munster every year of my life.(let's pretend munster Leinster is a nationality for argument sake).

Take John Aldridge with a granny and he's barely been to Ireland . Then he plays his heart out for us.

Stephen Ireland? Gavin Henson ? Cipriani? Nationality don't buy you commitment or passion.

All I'm saying is agree a rule and that's that.let the irfu decide whether someone really wants to get on board or not.

And let's continue to invest in Irish talent.

tolosenc

CatFromHue wrote: »

thats the point of making the time frame longer. you have to really want to play for that country.

Yeah, but, to the extent that they have to essentially wait till their career is over before they can start?

And why do people say seven? why not 5, or 10?

irishbucsfan

profitius wrote: »

A few weeks ago there was controversy because 2 soccer players made it known they wanted to play for Ireland. Jamie O'Hara and Jermaine Pennant! Most soccer fans did not want them playing for Ireland.

Brian Kerr came on the radio talking about it too and saying they should not be playing for Ireland. (Brian Kerr had no problem playing Clinton Morrison up front though)

So why all the fuss? O'Hara waited for an England call up before he suddenly decided he wanted to play for Ireland. Pennant came out of the blue. Probably decided it would be good for his career to play international soccer.

I'm interested to hear what you think of those 2? Should they play for Ireland?

Neither of those two players have played for Ireland, have they? I don't think they are Irish. They certainly don't fall within the bounds that make Strauss elligible (his residence and continued representation of Irish rugby at club level).

But yet you conveniently omitted the players I mentioned above who were heroes of Irish soccer in the 90s?

profitius wrote: »

Paying for foreigners is actually the easy way out. Its the short term solution. Developing your own players takes longer and more expertise and its very much more satisfying seeing a team take to the field that was developed from their youth instead of being brought in by a chegue book.

Sport is not just about winning at all costs. Winning at all costs is a similar mindset to the greedy bankers who forgot about morals and standards as they went chasing as much money as possible.

Bringing foreign experts in is hugely beneficial to our own youngsters. Ask Jamie Heaslip and Kevin McLoughlin, or any of the Munster forwards who played with Jim Williams.

I'm sure JHW and Sean Cronin will improve to no end for having had to compete with Strauss for a starting spot. Bringing Strauss into the national setup will only increase the range of that effect to include the starters at other provinces who will have to raise their games as well.

profitius wrote: »

Is he Irish? No.

Then wtf is he doing playing for ireland!

Because he plays his rugby in Ireland, has done for the agreed time period, and is the best player at his position in Irish rugby.

tolosenc

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But yet you conveniently omitted the players I mentioned above who were heroes of Irish soccer in the 90s?

Thing about O'Hara and Pennant is also that they sort of said "well, seeing as I'm never going to get a cap for England, I might as well try to get one for Ireland."

Pennant isn't even 100% sure he's entitled.

Their hearts wouldn't be in it. Whereas Strauss actively wants to play for Ireland, but can't just yet.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's is some rubbish being posted here. Since when do you have to be Irish to play for Ireland? One of the best Kiwis of all time was Irish.

He lives here, he has friends here, and if he wants to play for this country then he should be allowed to. The 3-year rule is in place to stop mercenaries and it works perfectly well.

Similarly, you can't say that Riki Flutely doesn't care about English rugby. Its rubbish that you can't justify. Just because he's not English he cares about english rugby less than someone who is?! Grand so. Cipriani obviously cares more than him. Henson obviously cares more about Welsh rugby as well.

Andy Ward came to Ireland when he got married. He didn't come here specifically to play rugby but joined Ballynahinch in the amateur era, a third division side to which he was loyal throughout his career. He was one of the best 7s to play for Ireland and Ulster. Should he have been denied caps for Ireland?

[QUOTE=irishbucsfan

The 3-year rule is in place to stop mercenaries coming to countries for the money. That is enough in my opinion, and obviously in the opinion of others as well.


Irish nationality and eligibility for the IRFU should be and are two different things. And thank god they are, because it produces higher standards.[/QUOTE]

It's a lot easier to and quicker to become an Irish citizen than to play rugby for Ireland. All you need is a large cheque and two photos.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Could the whole NIQ rule can be abolished provided that all the southern hemisphere players that come to play for the provinces sign 3 year deals? Sure doesn't this ensure that they aren't mercenaries? They will make loads of friends in Ireland and will be Irish citizens by the end of their contracts, so therefore they are Irish. :rolleyes:

That is, pretty much, the general point that is being spouted by some posters here defending Strauss and I for one call BS. Only Irish people should represent our national team, ie. Players that learned their rugby here and consider themselves Irish.

I have no interest supporting a team of Irish Qualified players who aren't good enough to get on their own national team. It takes more than 3 years to completely abandon your own identity, it should anyway.

I take your point in a general sense but no one is talking about filling the team with players born outside of the Republic. Would you regard British passport holders as 'Irish' for the purposes of rugby? Laurence D'Allaglio was asked to play for Ireland when he was 19 as his mother is Irish. Would you regard anyone who regarded themselves as British to be eligible for an Irish cap? I'm sure there are some 'pure bloods' who wouldn't. I'm not 'Irish' in the political sense. I'm a British subject not an Irish citizen. If I was young enough and good enough under your proscription I wouldn't be eligible. Neither would Bill McBride, Mike Gibson, Jack Kyle and a host of other players post independence. I think the eligibility rules of the IRB are a fine balance between keeping the carpet baggers out while genuinely allowing others an opportunity.

Take Tom Court for example and leaving aside any argument about his ability. He came here as a total novice and learnt how to play at Ulster. He didn't come here with any grand ideas about playing for Ireland. He was a newcomer to the sport. Do you honestly think he shouldn't be eligible for a cap in his adoptive country?

I do agree that we need to restrict the number of overseas players getting professional contracts but we are in the professional era. We need to be realistic not nationalistic.

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Neither of those two players have played for Ireland, have they? I don't think they are Irish. They certainly don't fall within the bounds that make Strauss elligible (his residence and continued representation of Irish rugby at club level).

But yet you conveniently omitted the players I mentioned above who were heroes of Irish soccer in the 90s?

No but they want to play for Ireland.

Cascarino always gave 100% for Ireland. He wasn't Irish though so should not have played for Ireland. Playing for Ireland helped Cascarino's career.

Ray Houghton is part Irish so I've no problem with him or the likes of Isaac Boss or Tom Court.

By the way I'm not ignoring anybody you mention. I've said they should have Irish blood or at least have lived here from an early age.

irishbucsfan wrote:

Bringing foreign experts in is hugely beneficial to our own youngsters. Ask Jamie Heaslip and Kevin McLoughlin, or any of the Munster forwards who played with Jim Williams.

I'm sure JHW and Sean Cronin will improve to no end for having had to compete with Strauss for a starting spot. Bringing Strauss into the national setup will only increase the range of that effect to include the starters at other provinces who will have to raise their games as well.

I know some foreign players has had a great influence on Irish rugby. Even still the likes of Doug Howlett has proven real value for money. Thats a different thing altogether. As much as I admire Strauss and Howlett I wouldn't want them playing for Ireland (if Howlett could) because they're not Irish.

irishbucsfan wrote:

Because he plays his rugby in Ireland, has done for the agreed time period, and is the best player at his position in Irish rugby.

I've nothing against Strauss personally and I'm sure he'll do his best if he plays for Ireland. Hes not Irish though so it makes a mockery of international rugby.

I've been saying it for years about England and I'm not going to change my mind just because it benefits Ireland now.

Ireland represents a people, not a patch of ground.

sock puppet

jacothelad wrote: »

Take Tom Court for example and leaving aside any argument about his ability. He came here as a total novice and learnt how to play at Ulster. He didn't come here with any grand ideas about playing for Ireland. He was a newcomer to the sport. Do you honestly think he shouldn't be eligible for a cap in his adoptive country?

Nah he played for the Reds first.

LeeroyJones

The England FA have a gentleman's agreement with the other Home Nations that anyone who represents England must have a bloodline with England or have received 5 years of education in that particular country.
This is to prevent any of Scotland's, Wales', NI's best talents jumping over to England for the sake of the higher standard and thus harming their home country - as they are entitled to given their British citizenship creating a bit of a grey area.
It recently came to the fore when there was talk of Mikael Arteta potentially playing for England and subsequently similar talk of Manuel Almunia.

I think that gentleman's agreement is a good idea, and I would support such a proposition to come into rugby. It's discussed here in this article

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

As Profitius points eludes to himself, I think it's ridiculous that Flutey and Hape play for England.... so it would be hypocritical of me to say Strauss should play for Ireland. He's a great player, and seems like a top bloke but 3 years is too short to declare for the country you're living in. 5 seems fair.

As far as I'm concerned it's the Irish Rugby Team, not the Irish Provinces XV (+Tommy Bowe!)

irishbucsfan

I can appreciate where you're coming from profitius.

I just feel the Irish rugby team represents Irish rugby, which is not always the same thing as representing the people. Someone who has played in Irish rugby for the majority of their career should be elligible after a period imo. Rugby isn't even an Irish sport, so I guess I don't equate it with patriotism as much because of that. That's what I watch the GAA for!

The decision has been made obviously though, and it will allow these guys to turn out for Ireland, and people who are opposed to that should make their feelings known. Personally I would whole-heartedly agree with increasing the years required for eligibility to 5. At the same time I don't think nations should be allowed to nominate a second team to lock players up.

I will agree that Strauss is not Irish, and maybe if the years required were increased to 5 I would be more inclined to describe him as such.

CatFromHue

just checking up on strauss seemingly he has won the u19 world championship with south africa in 2005.

he also played for the free state cheetahs between 2006 and 2009, thats 3 years, getting 54 caps. he also played for the cheetahs in super rugby and has 36 caps.

he currently has played for leinster 31 times.

by the time he qualifies for ireland he will still have played the majority of his adult rugby in south africa and have played for their national team at under age level.

totallegend

Seriously Tony?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/coughlan-world-dark-horse-2636718.html

I can only hope he was asked a direct question and felt he had to back his player.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

I can only hope he was asked a direct question and felt he had to back his player.

It looks that way.

Coughlan's been better than Leamy this season. Leamy has featured on Ireland teams this season. Its not a crazy jump to say that he'd be able for international rugby.

That being said, he's not likely to get a shot anytime soon.

roycon

what are peoples views on two definite irish qualified starters for the h-cup final. roger wilson and james downey. should they get a look in for Ireland A if theyre playing so well in such a successful team.