Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Sin a bhfuil

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

That doesn't mean he was any use at FB or our you saying he forgot how to play FB?

Back then, he was considered a fullback (when Kidney was coach). McGahan has moved him to the wing and put Paul Warwick to fullback.

So you're only bringing 7 backs?

I thought you wanted only first 7 outside backs. You've got my pecking order though if more are brought.

To put this into context let's compare Niall Morris & Felix Jones

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index.php?player=33307&includeref=dynamic

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=33240&includeref=dynamic

Both are full back/wingers
Both have played 6 games this season.
Morris has scored 3 tries to Jones's 1.

On this season's form I'd have Morris in the WC squad!

All but 15 minutes of his gametime was on the wing, not fullback and nearly all (bar Scarlet) against bottom of the Magners teams. Leinster lost two of those games as well! Unfortunately for Niall, he won't get much more gametime this season at fullback with Nacewa, Kearney & Luke ahead of him in the pecking order. Only reason I think Jones could be in the picture (along with Gavin Duffy) is because he is a specialist full back who can actually get gametime in the position.

Adam D'Arcy. Starting FB in a team that's above Leinster in the ML and made the KO stages of the HEC. Irish qualified. Started there for most if not all games this season.

Criminally ignored by many a poster.

Niall Morris wont be going to the WC. Felix Jones may, but he has an awful long way to go before I'd even rank him as an outsider.

Mr.Applepie

Deleted User wrote: »

Adam D'Arcy. Starting FB in a team that's above Leinster in the ML and made the KO stages of the HEC. Irish qualified. Started there for most if not all games this season.

Criminally ignored by many a poster.

Niall Morris wont be going to the WC. Felix Jones may, but he has an awful long way to go before I'd even rank him as an outsider.

Niall Morris was joke/example of Jones' lack of experience. I would agree that if a FB spot comes up it should be either Duffy or D'Arcy. My preference would be for Duffy.

Firstly, we'll assume that everyone is fit:
BOD/D'Arcy/Bowe/Earls/Trimble are all locked in. I think Fitzgerald is a cert, as is Kearney.
So that leaves us two from Wallace, Murphy and McFadden; I reckon Wallace will go as emergency cover for out-half and Murphy to take the last spot. McFadden's probable lack of game time in the next few weeks will scupper him, but Murphy is definitely vulnerable, especially if Earls gets a bit more game time at FB during the warm-up games.

Shane Horgan will be overlooked completely

I think Murphy might not make it as we already have a lot of players that can cover FB quite well.

My personal back 9 would be:

1. BOD
2. D'Arcy
3. McFadden
4. Bowe
5. Earls
6. Trimble
7. Kearney
8. Fitzgerald
9. Murphy/Shaggy

val_jester

Adam D'arcy is not good enough for the Irish team at the moment he might get better in the next few years but he makes too many mistakes at magners league/heineken cup level to play international rugby. Ulster have spent the last year looking for a full back in the super 15 and they signed jared payne recently and he is likely to start their next season. People are overlooking him for a reason.

If Kearney is fit he will be given gametime in the warm ups to get back to match fitnesss. Despite what everyone is saying on here he was playing really well before he got injured and is Kidney's first choice.

I think its unlikely that Kidney will bring two specialist full backs, when Earls, Bowe, and Fitzgerald can cover there and Kidney can only bring a limited number of backs.

But if he does bring two full backs I would prefer he brings Jones as I'd have the most confidence in him defensively and he is the youngest and I'd like to think we'd have confidence in youth. Murphy is past and was playing poorly before injury and Duffy has been injured and is prone to defensive errors.

It's like trying to explain to the Sun that the Moon lights up the world at night, but the Sun refuses to believe as it's only around during the day.

Writing off D'Arcy (Consistently good over the course of the seaon) while persisting with the "Jones is going to be great" is beyond redgogglism imo.
Writing of Duffy (Who has been consistently solid and defensively sound over the course of an entire career!) while persisting with the "Jones is going to be great" is beyond redgogglism too.

Get out of the Jones camp and into the Ireland camp please and thank you.

totallegend

val_jester wrote: »

Adam D'arcy is not good enough for the Irish team at the moment he might get better in the next few years but he makes too many mistakes at magners league/heineken cup level to play international rugby. Ulster have spent the last year looking for a full back in the super 15 and they signed jared payne recently and he is likely to start their next season. People are overlooking him for a reason.

If Kearney is fit he will be given gametime in the warm ups to get back to match fitnesss. Despite what everyone is saying on here he was playing really well before he got injured and is Kidney's first choice.

I think its unlikely that Kidney will bring two specialist full backs, when Earls, Bowe, and Fitzgerald can cover there and Kidney can only bring a limited number of backs.

But if he does bring two full backs I would prefer he brings Jones as I'd have the most confidence in him defensively and he is the youngest and I'd like to think we'd have confidence in youth. Murphy is past and was playing poorly before injury and Duffy has been injured and is prone to defensive errors.

We do have confidence in youth, we'll be bringing Earls and Fitzgerald, both of whom are actually younger by a few months than Jones and have a hell of a lot more experience.

Listen lads, I hope Felix Jones turns out to be a great player but to suggest he is remotely ready for the RWC is bananas. I really think it's worth repeating that he has never played in the Heineken Cup, let alone test level. Am I the only who sees how bizarre this idea is?

val_jester

I'm writing off D'arcy on the basis of having watched him a lot this season. He can be excellent at running the ball back but unfortunately he often gets isolated and loses possession due to taking the wrong decision. I'm not writing him off because I think Jones is better, I'm writing him off because at this stage of his development he is not good enough to play international rugby. The Ulster branch have also taken the view that he is not good enough to be first choice at a team hoping to win the Heineken Cup.

I may have been a bit harsh on Duffy, who was playing very well this season and last before he got injured, but whenever I think of him I can't forget the defensive howlers he makes in pressure games such as against Ulster last season when instead of tackling Cave he just let him run past him to score an easy try.

IMO if Jones continues to play as well as he has done in the last three games then he should be in with a chance of making the squad, but as I said earlier he is unlikely to make it as I believe Kidney will only bring one full back (Kearney).

How can you possibly have seen enough of Adam D'Arcy to say this

I'm writing him off because at this stage of his development he is not good enough to play international rugby.

yet be able to think the opposite of Felix Jones?

Felix Jones has played 12 times in two seasons. RELAX

val_jester

totallegend wrote: »

We do have confidence in youth, we'll be bringing Earls and Fitzgerald, both of whom are actually younger by a few months than Jones and have a hell of a lot more experience.

Listen lads, I hope Felix Jones turns out to be a great player but to suggest he is remotely ready for the RWC is bananas. I really think it's worth repeating that he has never played in the Heineken Cup, let alone test level. Am I the only who sees how bizarre this idea is?

Wilkinson never played Heineken Cup Rugby before winning the world cup. If they are good enough they should go. And once again I'm not saying that Jones should go, but he should get a chance in the warms up to prove his worth IF is form stays good until the end of the season.

And if playing Heineken Cup is going to be a requirement before a player can be capped no young Irish player is going to go to Connacht, and Croinin wouldn't be going to the world cup despite being our second best hooker with Flannery injured.

Risteard

totallegend wrote: »

We do have confidence in youth, we'll be bringing Earls and Fitzgerald, both of whom are actually younger by a few months than Jones and have a hell of a lot more experience.

Listen lads, I hope Felix Jones turns out to be a great player but to suggest he is remotely ready for the RWC is bananas. I really think it's worth repeating that he has never played in the Heineken Cup, let alone test level. Am I the only who sees how bizarre this idea is?

Cronin has never played in the Heineken Cup either. Before this season Jonny Wilkinson had played 6 games in the HC.

It's good experience to have, sure, but it's shouldn't be a prerequisite for playing in the Irish team.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

How can you possibly have seen enough of Adam D'Arcy to say this



yet be able to think the opposite of Felix Jones?

Felix Jones has played 12 times in two seasons. RELAX

D'arcy has played 20 games for Ulster and a few more in the AIL, and from what I've seen I don't think he is good enough. I'd also favour the Irish born and bred player over someone who has lived in the country for less than a year. I've seen D'arcy have absolute horror shows, and cursed him for costing Ulster points through making poor decisions or missing tackles.

I've never seen Jones do that and I know he hasn't played that many games due to injury but I'd just have more confidence in him. Besides Kearney (or Girve) he is the best Irish player under the high ball I've seen in the last few years and I think it is extremely foolish to rule him out due to a lack of gametime.

As has been mentioned on this thread he has worked under Kidney and the coaching staff before and I think that will stand in his favour and I'd expect him to be involved in the warm ups but like I said before I don't expect Kidney to bring more than one fullback (Kearney)

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

Listen lads, I hope Felix Jones turns out to be a great player but to suggest he is remotely ready for the RWC is bananas. I really think it's worth repeating that he has never played in the Heineken Cup, let alone test level. Am I the only who sees how bizarre this idea is?

Nope. Jones has buckets of promise and is showing glimpses of delivering on it but he has not set the world alight in his displays. He had several starts at the beginning of last season and he was solid, didn't do much really, never stood out for good or bad reasons. He has the pace and ability to cut loose but so far hasn't shown that at a high enough level. People basing him being in contention on a Churchill Cup from 2 years ago or a try he scored in a pre-season friendly against Leicester really need to take a breath. He cannot be considered on the basis of a few appearances so far this season in which he again has been solid but not spectacular. He's currently playing well. He's not hammering on the door for inclusion by a long shot. Gavin Duffy gave a superb display of full back play a week ago and very few are calling for his inclusion.

It remains to be seen if Murphy can come back from injury and be a genuine option for the WC. If he doesn't, the choice at 15 for me would be Kearney, Earls and Duffy in no particular order. Jones would be then best of the rest. The continued ignoring of Duffy is absurd. No he's not a world beater but he's solid and a very handy footballer who covers pretty much everywhere in the back line.

TheRevolution

Felix Jones has never started a HC game. Adam D'arcy meanwhile has been consistently performing in HC games, hes the logical option or better yet, Gavin Duffy who has played international rugby and is in fine form. Felix Jones might fall apart at the top level for all we know, hes never experienced HC intensity. Its a season too soon for him unfortunately.

The campaign to have Felix Jones as Irish starting full back for the world cup after a performance against Brive is absolutely hilarious. Any young back that comes out of Munster (even though hes from Leinster) is always overhyped to the most ridiculous degree. Talk about putting pressure on the lad.

totallegend

val_jester wrote: »

Wilkinson never played Heineken Cup Rugby before winning the world cup. If they are good enough they should go. And once again I'm not saying that Jones should go, but he should get a chance in the warms up to prove his worth IF is form stays good until the end of the season.

And if playing Heineken Cup is going to be a requirement before a player can be capped no young Irish player is going to go to Connacht, and Croinin wouldn't be going to the world cup despite being our second best hooker with Flannery injured.

No, you're right that HC rugby isn't and shouldn't be a pre-requisite; but some sort of exposure to high-level rugby should be. Cronin has played a lot of Magners and Amlin rugby, Jones has not.

Jonny Wilkinson? Had played a bit part in the 1999 WC and was the Lions test outhalf before he won the RWC.

The summer warm up games should be used to give Kearney and Murphy much-needed game time and maybe to give Earls a bit more exposure at FB. I don't like being negative about any player but playing Jones at 15 ahead of any those would be a waste of a jersey.

val_jester

totallegend wrote: »

No, you're right that HC rugby isn't and shouldn't be a pre-requisite; but some sort of exposure to high-level rugby should be. Cronin has played a lot of Magners and Amlin rugby, Jones has not.

Jonny Wilkinson? Had played a bit part in the 1999 WC and was the Lions test outhalf before he won the RWC.

The summer warm up games should be used to give Kearney and Murphy much-needed game time and maybe to give Earls a bit more exposure at FB. I don't like being negative about any player but playing Jones at 15 ahead of any those would be a waste of a jersey.

Murphy would need to play well when he comes back from injury to be considered for the Irish squad, the way he was playing before he got injured it would be much more of a waste of a jersey.
Earls has found form on the wing and should be left there, no point risking putting him at full back and having his confidence destroyed under the high ball.
And I realise the wilkinson situation is in no way comparable I just feel its crazy that we use lack of experience as an excuse for not risking players.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

The summer warm up games should be used to give Kearney and Murphy much-needed game time and maybe to give Earls a bit more exposure at FB. I don't like being negative about any player but playing Jones at 15 ahead of any those would be a waste of a jersey.

I disagree.

I hope that the player that deserves that Jersey is the player that gets the Jersey.

I think that we can all speculate who that will be, but we won't know until closer to the time.

Players that we should be keeping an eye on with a chance of playing FB in the WC are, in no particular order.

Duffy
Kearney
Murphy
Fitz
Earls
Jones
D'Arcy
J.Murphy
P.Wallace

Two of which are currently injured and will need to seriously impress upon return (which as we've seen in the case of Fitz is not an easy thing to do).

Two others are Lions wingers who could potentially fill the gap at 15 if they are asked to do so. One who's done well there so far, and one who hasn't.

Three FBs who appear to be first choice for their provinces at the moment and should have ample time to show their worth over the coming months.

Two Utility Backs in J.Murphy and P.Wallace who have played 15 before. (Hope it doesn't come to this!)

At this stage, it's anyone's guess really.

val_jester

TheRevolution wrote: »

Felix Jones has never started a HC game. Adam D'arcy meanwhile has been consistently performing in HC games, hes the logical option or better yet, Gavin Duffy who has played international rugby and is in fine form. Felix Jones might fall apart at the top level for all we know, hes never experienced HC intensity. Its a season too soon for him unfortunately.

The campaign to have Felix Jones as Irish starting full back for the world cup after a performance against Brive is absolutely hilarious. Any young back that comes out of Munster (even though hes from Leinster) is always overhyped to the most ridiculous degree. Talk about putting pressure on the lad.

I'd argue that Leinster Munster is at least the equal of HC intensity. To argue that a player must have played at HC level before they can be capped is ridiculous. No-one is saying that Jones should be starting full back, I'm just saying that IF he keeps playing like he is atm he should be given a chance in the warm up matches to make the squad or to be on stand by in case of injury.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree.

I hope that the player that deserves that Jersey is the player that gets the Jersey.

I think that we can all speculate who that will be, but we won't know until closer to the time.

Players that we should be keeping an eye on with a chance of playing FB in the WC are, in no particular order.

Duffy
Kearney
Murphy
Fitz
Earls
Jones
D'Arcy
J.Murphy
P.Wallace

Two of which are currently injured and will need to seriously impress upon return (which as we've seen in the case of Fitz is not an easy thing to do).

Two others are Lions wingers who could potentially fill the gap at 15 if they are asked to do so. One who's done well there so far, and one who hasn't.

Three FBs who appear to be first choice for their provinces at the moment and should have ample time to show their worth over the coming months.

Two Utility Backs in J.Murphy and P.Wallace who have played 15 before.

At this stage, it's anyone's guess really.

Looking at that list Kearney is the best option by a distance, I really really hope that J.Murphy isnt seriously considered for the squad and I'd prefer if Wallace was just left as a 12 who can cover 10 if sexton and o'gara are injured.
I've made my feelings clear on D'arcy and I don't thing G.Murphy is likely to rediscover enough form to justify a place, he was playing really poorly before injury and talk amongst Leicester fans was that they wanted him dropped.

I think earls should be left concentrate on wing and Kidney has said in the past that earls his his preferred second option at 13.
Fitz should be left on the wing so he can rediscover form, I feel really sorry for him cos he was messed around by Kidney during the six nations having being rushed back from injury.

Kearney will need gametime so he should play 2 games with Jones and Duffy getting the other game to decide who will be on stand by. This is me assuming that Kidney will only bring one full back. Earls/Fitz can cover and I know that contradicts what I said about them earlier.

Yeah see my edit RE: Wallace and Murphy.

I think that we don't know enough yet about D'Arcy or Jones to say anything concrete about either of them. They both have time and opportunities to answer all questions about them before the warm up games though.

We know what Duffy has to offer.

We know what a fully fit Kearney and G.Murphy have to offer, its whether or not we can get either of them back fully fit and back in the game that is the real question.

Earls and Fitz are fairly unknown at FB, possible back ups but improbable starters. Both / Either could see a few appearances at Kidney's request for their provinces before the season is out.

val_jester

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah see my edit RE: Wallace and Murphy.

I think that we don't know enough yet about D'Arcy or Jones to say anything concrete about either of them. They both have time and opportunities to answer all questions about them before the warm up games though.

We know what Duffy has to offer.

We know what a fully fit Kearney and G.Murphy have to offer, its whether or not we can get either of them back fully fit and back in the game that is the real question.

Earls and Fitz are fairly unknown at FB, possible back ups but improbable starters. Both / Either could see a few appearances at Kidney's request for their provinces before the season is out.

Yeah I saw the edit there.
Unfortunately for Geordan I think age and the latest injury will have taken a toll on him. I just don't see him coming back in good enough form to justify a place.

With Duffy I just don't think he is at the required standard, and at his age is not likely to improve, which is annoying because he had so much natural talent but maybe not enough mental toughness.

Earls is a brilliant attacking full back but the whole issue with him is the worry about high balls, even though he dealt comfortably with them during the six nations but that was while playing on the wing and when he moved to full back he didn't have one to catch, Fitz was excellent under high balls in 2009 so he has the ability just not the confidence atm or maybe he is trying to hard i don't know.

I've already talked about D'arcy. I would be surprised if he sees much gametime for Ulster next year, Jared Payne has likely been signed as starting full back and I'd hope that Conor Gaston (who played wing for Ulster a few weeks ago but has been playing fullback for Dungannon in the AIL) would been second choice as he is only 20 and an Ulsterman with lots of potential.

Jones will be first choice for munster unless he gets injured again, and I'd have more confidence in him and feel he is a step above d'arcy in terms of class and ability. But I don't really want to prolong the debate between the two, and I really think that if Kearney is fit Kidney will take him as the only specialist full back with earls/fitz covering and jones/murphy on standby. Whether d'arcy is better than jones I feel Kidney rates Jones more. He didn't include D'arcy for any of the Ireland A games which would lead you to believe D'arcy doesn't feature in his world cup plans.

totallegend

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0426/1224295459414.html

Gerry Thornley writes an article about "bolters" for the World Cup, then predicts the most conservative squad possible (he assumes 100% fitness):

BACKS (Back five, 5) – Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Kearney. (Midfield, 3) – O’Driscoll, D’Arcy, P Wallace. (Outhalves, 2) – Sexton, O’Gara. (Scrumhalves, 3) – Reddan, O’Leary, Stringer.

FORWARDS (Hookers, 3) Best, Cronin, Flannery. (Props, 5) Healy, Ross, Court, Horan, Buckley. (Locks, 3) – O’Connell, O’Callaghan, Cullen. (Backrow, 6) – Heaslip, D Wallace, O’Brien, Ferris, Leamy, McLaughlin.

Not much to argue with there, except possibly the presence of Horan? Has had so little game time in the past 12 months, but then who else would go?
Maybe Isaac Boss would feel hard done by to be edged out by Stringer.

In fairness to Gerry, he's probably on the money; I don't think any of the bolters have done enough to dislodge any of the established players. McFadden and Spence are probably closest, if Kidney decides Wallace is surplus to requirements.

lologram

totallegend wrote: »

(he assumes 100% fitness)

FORWARDS (Hookers, 3) Best, Cronin, Flannery.

Mighty big assumption there

Kaka10

totallegend wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0426/1224295459414.html

Gerry Thornley writes an article about "bolters" for the World Cup, then predicts the most conservative squad possible (he assumes 100% fitness):

BACKS (Back five, 5) – Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Kearney. (Midfield, 3) – O’Driscoll, D’Arcy, P Wallace. (Outhalves, 2) – Sexton, O’Gara. (Scrumhalves, 3) – Reddan, O’Leary, Stringer.

FORWARDS (Hookers, 3) Best, Cronin, Flannery. (Props, 5) Healy, Ross, Court, Horan, Buckley. (Locks, 3) – O’Connell, O’Callaghan, Cullen. (Backrow, 6) – Heaslip, D Wallace, O’Brien, Ferris, Leamy, McLaughlin.

Theres many things wrong with that team :

• Horgan has to be there on current form.
• McFadden deserves to be ahead of Wallace
• Boss is a better scrumhalf than both Stringer and O'Leary currently
• 5 props is overkill and theres no way Horan deserves to be there
• Having Ferris, Leamy, O'Brien and McLaughlin covering 6 is too much, Jennings should be in there ahead of Leamy or McLaughlin (Leamy should make way in my opinion)
• Theres no way Flannery should be travelling, theres no way I'd ever be confident in starting him in the midst of the world cup having not played at all in a year.

Stev_o

Flannery may be completely broken and made of glass at this stage but the gulf in quality between himself and our next available hooker is gigantic.

I don't think Horgan will make the final cut. He hasn't been involved in the set up all year plus he ll only cover the wing spot. Him in the centre's is NOT a option.

Deccie likes Jones and McFadden think they ll both travel. Scrum Halves have to be Reddan Boss and String which is some serious depth imo.

profitius

Kaka10 wrote: »

Theres many things wrong with that team :

• Horgan has to be there on current form.
• McFadden deserves to be ahead of Wallace
• Boss is a better scrumhalf than both Stringer and O'Leary currently
• 5 props is overkill and theres no way Horan deserves to be there
• Having Ferris, Leamy, O'Brien and McLaughlin covering 6 is too much, Jennings should be in there ahead of Leamy or McLaughlin (Leamy should make way in my opinion)
• Theres no way Flannery should be travelling, theres no way I'd ever be confident in starting him in the midst of the world cup having not played at all in a year.

Amlin Opta Index
Top Ten forwards of the season

Name
Sean O’Brien
Schalk Brits
Phil Dowson
Joe Van Niekerk
Thomas Waldrom
Tom Wood
Hendre Fourie
Denis Leamy
Craig Newby
Richardt Straus

CouchSmart

profitius wrote: »

Amlin Opta Index
Top Ten forwards of the season

Name
Sean O’Brien
Schalk Brits
Phil Dowson
Joe Van Niekerk
Thomas Waldrom
Tom Wood
Hendre Fourie
Denis Leamy
Craig Newby
Richardt Straus

Not that it really matters but McLoughlin has played a whole lot less HEC than Leamy this season. What with being out injured until January.

LeeroyJones

While I envisage that players from Wilkinson & Tuohy to Duffy & Spence will be in the greater squad for the summer, I cannot look beyond this being the squad give or take 2 or 3 players perhaps.
Players I really cannot see being dropped are underlined - which adds to 22 players inc Fla and Ferris who of course are in a race against time with regards fitness

Loose Heads
Healy
Court
Slight chance of Horan if Deccie sees fit for Court to cover tight over Buckley

Hookers
Best
Cronin
Flannery
If Fla doesn't make it, then Varley

Tight Heads
Ross
Buckley

Locks
O'Connell
O'Callaghan
Cullen and/or MOD depending on whether it's a 16/14 or 17/13 split

Back Row
O'Brien
Wallace
Heaslip
Ferris (if fit of course)
2 from Leamy/Ruddock/Jennings/McLaughlin or D Ryan (if only 3 specialist locks are sent I'd be confident one of these will be selected as back-up for across the back-5)

Scrum-Halves
O'Leary
Reddan
1 from Stringer/Boss/Murray

Out-Halves
Sexton
O'Gara

Centres
Wallace
D'arcy
O'Driscoll

Back Three
Earls
Bowe
Fitzgerald
2 or 3 from Trimble/McFadden/Kearney/Murphy - again depending on the split

Stev_o

It's scary given the above how only a few injuries will completely destroy any chance of us at challenging for the World Cup.

profitius

CouchSmart wrote: »

Not that it really matters but McLoughlin has played a whole lot less HEC than Leamy this season. What with being out injured until January.

I'm just pointing out that Leamy has not played as bad as people believe.

I think McLaughlin will be up against Donnacha Ryan and Mike McCarthy for the secondrow/backrow slot.

Jemo

McCarthy could be the only bolter of the tour. Deccie has surprised us before though. There should be no question of the first two scrumhalves on the plane though, Reddan and Boss have been head and shoulders above the Munster triplet all season. One of TOL or Stringer should travel with them, my money would be on TOL although it is worrying that hes seeing no game time due to injury/form. Wallace will travel I reckon.