Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

totallegend

Geordan Murphy likely to retire from international duty
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/mobile/rugby_union/15526802.stm

No great surprise I suppose, writing has been on the wall for his international chances for a while.

LeeroyJones

totallegend wrote: »

Geordan Murphy likely to retire from international duty
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/mobile/rugby_union/15526802.stm

No great surprise I suppose, writing has been on the wall for his international chances for a while.

Great player and a great pro. Unfortunately I can't help but feel we didn't see enough of him for Ireland at fullback. He got 74 caps so that may sound stupid but plenty of those were off the bench, in non-competitive matches or on the ******* wing!

GerM

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Great player and a great pro. Unfortunately I can't help but feel we didn't see enough of him for Ireland at fullback. He got 74 caps so that may sound stupid but plenty of those were off the bench, in non-competitive matches or on the ******* wing!

Have to disagree. Murphy had plenty of chances at 15 in green (41 starts there to be exact). He simply made too many errors in defence to ever make the jersey his own permanently. When faced with a choice between a player that's safe and reliable or a player that is a creative genius but has a decent chance of making a defensive howler 9/10 times they'll go with the reliable option. Murphy simply gave his coaches too many reasons not to pick him. If he had Dempsey's ability to tackle he would have over 100 caps and be a test Lion over a couple of tours.

LeeroyJones

GerM wrote: »

Have to disagree. Murphy had plenty of chances at 15 in green (41 starts there to be exact). He simply made too many errors in defence to ever make the jersey his own permanently. When faced with a choice between a player that's safe and reliable or a player that is a creative genius but has a decent chance of making a defensive howler 9/10 times they'll go with the reliable option. Murphy simply gave his coaches too many reasons not to pick him. If he had Dempsey's ability to tackle he would have over 100 caps and be a test Lion over a couple of tours.

Sorry I didn't phrase my piece well. His ability with ball in hand was absolutely superb and when he was at full-back running with broken play in front of him he was fantastic. Ball in hand I would only say BOD was naturally as good/better from the current crop of players.
With that in mind I would have loved to have seen him own the 15 shirt for the best part of the decade.
However, 100% correct that he simply wasn't solid enough in defence which was a huge shame IMO

CatFromHue

Without being too hard on the guy I never thought at international level he justified the hype that surrounded him.

Podge_irl

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Sorry I didn't phrase my piece well. His ability with ball in hand was absolutely superb and when he was at full-back running with broken play in front of him he was fantastic. Ball in hand I would only say BOD was naturally as good/better from the current crop of players.
With that in mind I would have loved to have seen him own the 15 shirt for the best part of the decade.
However, 100% correct that he simply wasn't solid enough in defence which was a huge shame IMO

He was good ball in hand in open spaces. He was beyond useless going into contact though. His decision making was often poor at times too - he threw a fair few interceptions with silly passes.

He's pretty much the perfect example of an excellent club level player who just couldn't perform at the slightly higher international level with tougher defences and less time to act.

profitius

Is he the first who has mentioned retirement? It just goes to show how well looked after the home based players are.

totallegend

CatFromHue wrote: »

Without being too hard on the guy I never thought at international level he justified the hype that surrounded him.

In fairness, his international form in the lead up to the 2003 World Cup was excellent but I think he gained his rep on that and never really scaled those heights again. He had some great moments in green but too many high profile shockers to really be regarded as an international great.

Gerry Thornley will take this very hard.

CatFromHue

That's true he was looking good then. That was 8 years ago now and in my opinion he never found that form internationally again.

I'm not begrudging his caps or anything but I don't like to hear about perceived "injustices" on him due to him not getting more gametime (this hasn't been mentioned here yet but will be).

bamboozle

profitius wrote: »

Is he the first who has mentioned retirement? It just goes to show how well looked after the home based players are.

i dont think the Irish based players will be retiring especially those on central contracts cause their earnings would seriously diminish. Also, we'll need as many old heads as possible next summer for a 3 test series in New Zealand, i'd say that'll be the final hurrah for the likes of DOC, Wallace, ROG, Cullen

totallegend

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think the Irish based players will be retiring especially those on central contracts cause their earnings would seriously diminish. Also, we'll need as many old heads as possible next summer for a 3 test series in New Zealand, i'd say that'll be the final hurrah for the likes of DOC, Wallace, ROG, Cullen

Donners has a contract for another couple of years anyway, as has ROG. I'd say whether they officially retire will depend on how it hits them in the pocket... Don't know what Cullen's situation is.

Edit: DOC contracted up to end of 2013/14 season
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/20954.php

pajunior

It was nothing short of a disgrace how some of the older players were given contracts past the WC when the need for them would be greatly diminished.

If DOC or ROG had of rejected a smaller contract from Munster and gone abroad it would have been unfortunate, but not disastrous for the National team which is meant to be the point of central contracts.

Hagz

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think the Irish based players will be retiring especially those on central contracts cause their earnings would seriously diminish. Also, we'll need as many old heads as possible next summer for a 3 test series in New Zealand, i'd say that'll be the final hurrah for the likes of DOC, Wallace, ROG, Cullen

I hope you're wrong. I don't see the point in giving the players a last hurrah in a friendly test series. In fact that would infuriate me. The Southern test should be used to blood up and coming players.

CatFromHue

Hagz wrote: »

The Southern test should be used to blood up and coming players.

We will be anhilated if we do that.

I think an extended squad will be brought over as there more than likely will be mid week games. These games will be were up and coming players should be given a run.

There is no Supex XV during the 3 week window in June (I think anyway) so a game against a Super XV team might be on the cards.

jacothelad

Hagz wrote: »

I hope you're wrong. I don't see the point in giving the players a last hurrah in a friendly test series. In fact that would infuriate me. The Southern test should be used to blood up and coming players.

I understand why you say what you do but the NZRFU want Ireland in full. Not Ireland Lite. New Zealand don't fell it is their job to provide Kidney with a few training runs. They want to fill the grounds. These are full games not friendlies to sort out who is any good. If a coach can't see who is or isn't good enough on the basis of almost 30 professional games a season for each player then he ain't worthy of the name. Having said that, we still ended up with Buckley despite the evidence of 150 games and TOL, Fitz, Mincer, Darcy, DOC etc when allegedly out of form over longish periods.

totallegend

jacothelad wrote: »

I understand why you say what you do but the NZRFU want Ireland in full. Not Ireland Lite. New Zealand don't fell it is their job to provide Kidney with a few training runs. They want to fill the grounds. These are full games not friendlies to sort out who is any good.

Yeah you're right there, plus the worst thing you could do for a bunch of new players would be to send them down as an inexperienced unit, get three solid hidings at the end of a long season and come back totally demoralised. I'm always banging this drum but the new faces have to be drip-fed into the team.

Add to that the fact that the clock will be ticking on Kidney's contract extension and Ireland will be going all out to win (or at least not to get hammered).

profitius

pajunior wrote: »

It was nothing short of a disgrace how some of the older players were given contracts past the WC when the need for them would be greatly diminished.

If DOC or ROG had of rejected a smaller contract from Munster and gone abroad it would have been unfortunate, but not disastrous for the National team which is meant to be the point of central contracts.

We're seeing the downside to central contracts and the tax back system now. Especially central contracts. It was fine when there wasn't that many players in the country but as more players start to emerge they'll find their way blocked by older centrally contracted players.

The tax back also means Ireland doesn't have the advantage of offloading older players to France and England like the southern hemisphere countries and Wales does.

Hagz

Nah, I don't buy that. Regardless of how much of a hiding we get we should be sending a team like this to NZ. (based on the now)
(Healy, Cronin, Hagan, Tuohy, O'Connell, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Not
(Healy, Best, Ross, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Reddan, O'Gara, Earls, D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Nothing is achieved form the second, whereas in the first team you give Cronin, Ryan, Murray, McFadden game-time against sterling opposition. I think the fact that they've changed the set-up to test series again gives the perfect opportunity to blood players, and I hope for Ireland's sake Kidney sees that too.

I'm definitely leaving Best at 2 for the forseeable future. He's not an oulfella.

Ryan would get absolutely murdered at 7, and is simply not ready. And I'm not dropping Ferris ever (cause he'd kill me).

Quint2010

Hagz wrote: »

Nah, I don't buy that. Regardless of how much of a hiding we get we should be sending a team like this to NZ. (based on the now)
(Healy, Cronin, Hagan, Tuohy, O'Connell, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Not
(Healy, Best, Ross, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Reddan, O'Gara, Earls, D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Nothing is achieved form the second, whereas in the first team you give Cronin, Ryan, Murray, McFadden game-time against sterling opposition. I think the fact that they've changed the set-up to test series again gives the perfect opportunity to blood players, and I hope for Ireland's sake Kidney sees that too.

Agree with this. You will learn nothing from a most probable 20 point defeat with existing players. Would prefer to see an inexperienced side to see if any of them could step up.

totallegend

Hagz wrote: »

Nah, I don't buy that. Regardless of how much of a hiding we get we should be sending a team like this to NZ. (based on the now)
(Healy, Cronin, Hagan, Tuohy, O'Connell, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Ah yeah, but that's not really a radical selection at all, and if Tuohy and Hagan can show up well in the HC this season it could be positively mundane by next summer.

Something along the lines of:
(Healy, Cronin, Hagan, Tuohy, Toner, O'Brien, Dom Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Gilroy, McFadden, Spence, Earls, Jones)
would cause a riot in NZ, but these are all guys that we're putting forward on boards as potentially being of the required standard, should get a run etc.

As long as the Kiwis see the big names of O'Driscoll, O'Connell and now maybe O'Brien on the teamsheet, they'll be happy.

WeeBushy

Quint2010 wrote: »

Agree with this. You will learn nothing from a most probable 20 point defeat with existing players. Would prefer to see an inexperienced side to see if any of them could step up.

Why is everyone looking at it as an either/or? It can be a mixture of youth and experience. Like totallegend said, drip-feed the young guys into the team.

What do we learn playing the old guard again and again? Not much. What do we learn playing a team of youngsters and getting hammered by NZ? Again, not much. Balance is key.

profitius

Play the best side possible. Some of the older players are not the best any more so trying out younger players is a no brainer. Spence instead of D'Arcy for example. Similar type of players but Spence is better now so playing him would strengthen the team. Thats just one example.

Fireball07

Hagz wrote: »

Nah, I don't buy that. Regardless of how much of a hiding we get we should be sending a team like this to NZ. (based on the now)
(Healy, Cronin, Hagan, Tuohy, O'Connell, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Trimble, McFadden, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Not
(Healy, Best, Ross, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip, Reddan, O'Gara, Earls, D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney)

Nothing is achieved form the second, whereas in the first team you give Cronin, Ryan, Murray, McFadden game-time against sterling opposition. I think the fact that they've changed the set-up to test series again gives the perfect opportunity to blood players, and I hope for Ireland's sake Kidney sees that too.

Should Ferris be dropped just to accommodate Ryan getting some experience? I don't think so. I think it should be picked on form, within reason. A good blend of youth and experience.

But for example, don't pick Murray if he's not playing well. Don't pick McFadden at 12 if Fitzgerald/Spence is playing better. Only give Hagan a game if his form at Leinster justifies it, the same with Tuohy.

bamboozle

Hagz wrote: »

I hope you're wrong. I don't see the point in giving the players a last hurrah in a friendly test series. In fact that would infuriate me. The Southern test should be used to blood up and coming players.

i agree players need to be blooded but in an environment with a core group of more experienced players, irrespective of my own opinions on this i actually dont think Kidney would head back to NZ without his experienced players

Hagz

Fireball07 wrote: »

Should Ferris be dropped just to accommodate Ryan getting some experience? I don't think so. I think it should be picked on form, within reason. A good blend of youth and experience.

No I just changed O'Brien to Ferris for no real reason. Either or. The point I was making was that there's no point playing Wallace in a test series down south. At least not consistently. I could understand playing him there if you played someone like Ruddock at 6 just so Ruddock had experience beside him. But I really don't see the point in playing a 36yr old who has played close to 70?? games for Ireland. What's he got to gain from it? More importantly what has the team got to gain form it?

bamboozle wrote: »

i agree players need to be blooded but in an environment with a core group of more experienced players, irrespective of my own opinions on this i actually dont think Kidney would head back to NZ without his experienced players

You obviously have to blood the young guys with experience, but what experience? I can understand players like O'Driscoll and O'Connell and Best playing. But I honestly would not want to see O'Gara, or Wallace, or O'Callaghan, or D'arcy play. There's nothing to gain from playing those players. I don't see the point in playing them simply to give them a last hurrah.

irishbucsfan

I want them to play whatever team has the best chance of beating the All Blacks. Even if the average age is 53. Start Methuselah at tight-head for all I care.

For me, if it was tomorrow: Healy, Best, Ross, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Earls, Spence/Fitz, O'Driscoll, Bowe, Kearney.

Hagz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I want them to play whatever team has the best chance of beating the All Blacks. Even if the average age is 53. Start Methuselah at tight-head for all I care.

You don't make a squad with that philosophy in my opinion.
Instead you make a 15-19 man squad that you rely on, instead of having a solid 30+ players.

Look at the Leinster team. There's back-up in almost every position. Obviously thats in part to do with $, but it's also because in games that you can afford to, you give guys opportunities. If you can't afford to do it in a friendly test series, when can you?

Even looking at the bench for the Ireland team during the WC.
Cronin, Court, Ryan, Leamy, Murray, ROG, Trimble.
I would only have confidence in 2/3 of those players. That shouldn't be the case IMO.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

Play the best side possible. Some of the older players are not the best any more so trying out younger players is a no brainer. Spence instead of D'Arcy for example. Similar type of players but Spence is better now so playing him would strengthen the team. Thats just one example.

Couldn't possibly agree more with this. There are certain old heads who shouldn't be going down to NZ as they simply aren't the best in their position anymore. Nothing to do with blooding youngsters for the sake of it. It's still international rugby and an important test series and you should only be playing players who have earned the call up. I really don't see what benefit playing against NZ in NZ would have to a player who isn't ready for it anyway.

Hagz wrote:

Look at the Leinster team. There's back-up in almost every position.

And look at the Leinster team for important games. There is also a fairly definite first choice spine of the team.

The next world cup is 4 years away - it's utterly silly to be discarding players who won't make it if they're still the best in their position and it's pointless throwing in young players who aren't seriously pushing for selection as they could well have disappeared in 4 years time.

On top of which, I'd really, really, really like Ireland to actually beat NZ one of these days.

Hagz

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think the Irish based players will be retiring especially those on central contracts cause their earnings would seriously diminish. Also, we'll need as many old heads as possible next summer for a 3 test series in New Zealand, i'd say that'll be the final hurrah for the likes of DOC, Wallace, ROG, Cullen

Podge_irl wrote: »

And look at the Leinster team for important games. There is also a fairly definite first choice spine of the team.
Are all three games important though? And is there? I personally would be of the opinion that people's first XV would vary. Some people might want McFadden to start, or Kearney to start or McLaughlin to start, whereas other might want D'arcy, Nacewa and Jennings to start. That's the kind of healthy position Ireland should be aiming for.

The next world cup is 4 years away - it's utterly silly to be discarding players who won't make it if they're still the best in their position and it's pointless throwing in young players who aren't seriously pushing for selection as they could well have disappeared in 4 years time.
It's not silly to disregard a player like O'Callaghan, if the player behind him, whether it be Tuohy or Ryan etc has potential. It's not silly to confine ROG to the bench when you consider he won't be around in a year or 2. It might be silly in a 6N, where winning is everything, but it's certainly not in a 3 match friendly test series.

On top of which, I'd really, really, really like Ireland to actually beat NZ one of these days.
Wouldn't we all.

My point was never to not play the best players, it was to not use the test series as a way of sending off the old guard. Although the Irish team has a policy of one game at a time, you have to prepare and build. If you keep playing your best XV, XV is all you'll have.