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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread
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Deleted User wrote: »I'm actually not defending Luke. I think he was thrown in at the deep end when he was nowhere near ready, as did half if not more of the forum!
Agreed.emmert02 wrote:I'm saying that with 6 months to go, that 15 jersey is one of the most if not the most "up for grabs" jersey going in the Ireland squad.
Agreed.emmet02 wrote:I'm also saying that judging players on 5/6 games with 6 months to go until the squad plays is fairly premature.
I believe this is your main point here but I don't think people are judging him on 5/6 (or less) games. He has already proved that he has the talent at fullback and he hasn't put a foot wrong since coming back from injury.0 -
I don't know when he has Prof because he played little or no decent rugby last season and was an academy player the season before that. Lets be honest 75% of the posters singing his praises are judging him on the past 5 games.
There's no doubting he's got talent but as emmet pointed out he's done nothing against a really good team,yet. Problem for him is that at most he's going to face to two notch teams in games that matter this season.
Is this enough to earn a WC spot?0 -
It seems that some fans are expecting the best of the players that represent their teams, while are expecting the worst of players that play for not their teams.
That's all that it is.
I don't think there's much point trying to debate with the posters that are guilty of this. Its fine to voice a totally biased belief if that's what you think in your Team Thread, but if you can't remain impartial I don't think people should bother posting in this thread.0 -
PhatPiggins wrote: »I don't know when he has Prof because he played little or no decent rugby last season and was an academy player the season before that. Lets be honest 75% of the posters singing his praises are judging him on the past 5 games.
There's no doubting he's got talent but as emmet pointed out he's done nothing against a really good team,yet. Problem for him is that at most he's going to face to two notch teams in games that matter this season.
Is this enough to earn a WC spot?
I don't think he would be under consideration except the other fullback options are very limited at the moment through injury and form. Kidney mentioned during the 6Ns that it was a pity he was injured (so he obviously rates him). Compare his come back from serious injury to Luke's comeback.
Jones will get to play as fullback in at least two more top notch games than Kearney, Luke or Murphy at fullback this season.
Jones got picked for Ireland A in the Churchill Winning Cup team pretty much straight out of the Leinster Academy (one Magners game).
He also won an U20 Grand Slam.
Anthony Foley singled him out for having a chance to make the world cup squad even though he had just played a Munster "A" game. He didn't suggest Denis Hurley or Johne Murphy, two more senior players would make it who can play fullback.
*by the way, he has missed 2 seasons through injury, one of them career threatening. Fairplay to him for coming back from those playing as well as he is playing.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It seems that some fans are expecting the best of the players that represent their teams, while are expecting the worst of players that play for not their teams.
That's all that it is.
I don't think there's much point trying to debate with the posters that are guilty of this. Its fine to voice a totally biased belief if that's what you think in your Team Thread, but if you can't remain impartial I don't think people should bother posting in this thread.
Speak for yourself here about what you expect for the various players. I certainly don't expect the worst, but where injured, you have to be realistic about their chances of being fit in time to get a few games before the end of the season in the fullback position.
How can you expect any of them to perform if they are injured or not getting to play in the fullback position?
Luke got a load of chances at fullback and it just isn't working out for him. I've said I think he will go to the world cup as a wing or a centre (even though his form is not good at the moment). How is that not expecting the best for him?).
Kearney has a knee injury with not a word about when he will be back playing. He could be out for a year. I hope he isn't.
Murphy is hoping that he will get one game by the end of the season.
Why all the expectation that Jones is going to fail. Why so dismissive of his chance of playing himself into the world cup squad. Why not give him as many chances as Luke has had up to now. Its not as if Luke is being dropped to play him.0 -
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Find me ONE post where I said Jones was set to fail.
Find me ONE post where I said Jones doesn't have a chance to get to the World Cup.
Find me ONE post where I said Luke Fitz is a better choice than Jones.
You're being utterly ridiculous at this stage. You need to see through the red goggles if you want anyone to listen to you on here.
All I've posted is asking for some sense of realism, and impartiality. If you are unable to do that, I don't think you should be allowed post in here.0 -
Sin a bhfuil wrote: »I don't think he would be under consideration except the other fullback options are very limited at the moment through injury and form. Kidney mentioned during the 6Ns that it was a pity he was injured (so he obviously rates him). Compare his come back from serious injury to Luke's comeback.
Jones will get to play as fullback in at least two more top notch games than Kearney, Luke or Murphy at fullback this season.
Jones got picked for Ireland A in the Churchill Winning Cup team pretty much straight out of the Leinster Academy (one Magners game).
He also won an U20 Grand Slam.
Anthony Foley singled him out for having a chance to make the world cup squad even though he had just played a Munster "A" game. He didn't suggest Denis Hurley or Johne Murphy, two more senior players would make it who can play fullback.
*by the way, he has missed 2 seasons through injury, one of them career threatening. Fairplay to him for coming back from those playing as well as he is playing.
Kearney is a shoe in no matter how little rugby he plays so I don't see any point in including him in your post.
Foley was asked about Jones, he didn't volunteer the opinion and wasn't asked about Murphy or Hurley. The first didn't play in the game in mention and the second is injured. Above all he's hardly going to say negative things about a young player coming back from injury.
Kidney rates him and he doesn't rate Fitzgerald!!! Yeah right.
Fair play to him indeed but by simply repeating the same points over an over again doesn't make them any closer to being relevant.
I'm bored of this circular reasoning.
Leamy or McLaughlin?
I'd go with McLaughlin0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Find me ONE post where I said Jones was set to fail.
Find me ONE post where I said Jones doesn't have a chance to get to the World Cup.
Find me ONE post where I said Luke Fitz is a better choice than Jones.
You're being utterly ridiculous at this stage. You need to see through the red goggles if you want anyone to listen to you on here.
All I've posted is asking for some sense of realism, and impartiality. If you are unable to do that, I don't think you should be allowed post in here.
You are the one assigning motives (provincial bias) as to why we think that Felix Jones has A CHANCE (not we are not putting him on the plane yet) of making the rugby world cup squad mainly because of injuries to Kearney who would be first choice fullback but has a knee injury and Murphy, who has a broken leg.
The fact that Jones is exceptionally good at counteracting which is in vogue at the moment, also helps his case and is an aspect of Kearney game that he needs to improve on.0 -
PhatPiggins wrote: »Kearney is a shoe in no matter how little rugby he plays so I don't see any point in including him in your post.
First of all he has a knee injury and there are there is no mention when he will be back. Second, he is great under a highball, but he isn't good at counteracting.Foley was asked about Jones, he didn't volunteer the opinion and wasn't asked about Murphy or Hurley. The first didn't play in the game in mention and the second is injured. Above all he's hardly going to say negative things about a young player coming back from injury.
Foley didn't have to mention the world cup. He could have said lets see how he gets on in this game.Kidney rates him and he doesn't rate Fitzgerald!!! Yeah right.
I think Kidney rates both of them (though he did drop Fitz for Earls in the 6Ns).Leamy or McLaughlin?
I'd go with McLaughlin
Surely the question will be McLaughlin or O'Brien starting for Leinster (when Jennings comes back).0 -
Sin a Bhfuil, by aaaaany chance are you related to / know of / are thehighground?
Anyway, I've said loads on all the matters above, and wont be rehashing my opinion repeatedly as if I've changed tack.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Sin a Bhfuil, by aaaaany chance are you related to / know of / are thehighground?
Anyway, I've said loads on all the matters above, and wont be rehashing my opinion repeatedly as if I've changed tack.
I know of thehighground - posted a lot on the free to air discussion but doesn't seem to post here anymore.
I don't understand what you mean when you say 'rehashing my opinion repeatedly as if I've changed tack.'0 -
I wont be posting anything further on this as I've said everything I feel is worthwhile saying.0
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Sin a bhfuil wrote: »First of all he has a knee injury and there are there is no mention when he will be back. Second, he is great under a highball, but he isn't good at counteracting.
Foley didn't have to mention the world cup. He could have said lets see how he gets on in this game.
I think Kidney rates both of them (though he did drop Fitz for Earls in the 6Ns).
Surely the question will be McLaughlin or O'Brien starting for Leinster (when Jennings comes back).
Kearney on form is our best full back unquestionably and I'm not from Munster or Leinster so no bias here! He is prone to the odd mistake through overconfidence more than anything else I think. He is a strong counter attacker, he just needs to be encouraged to do it more often. Bowe is obviously a certainty I would think, that leaves a difficult choice between Fitz and Earls, it would be Fitz for me personally but either way it's a brilliant dilema to have.
I think O'Brien offers more ball carrying ability than Mclaughlin.0 -
Maybe we'll move on from the FB issue...
For reasons best known to himself, Hugh Farrelly would bring Willie Falloon
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/as-it-stands-2616089.html
Other than that his selection looks ok...0 -
There's no way it will be a 17-13 split, that's far too few backs.
Also Donnacha Ryan ahead of MOD/Tuohy? Is he having a laugh?0 -
Sin a bhfuil wrote: »I don't think he would be under consideration except the other fullback options are very limited at the moment through injury and form. Kidney mentioned during the 6Ns that it was a pity he was injured (so he obviously rates him). Compare his come back from serious injury to Luke's comeback.
Jones will get to play as fullback in at least two more top notch games than Kearney, Luke or Murphy at fullback this season.
Jones got picked for Ireland A in the Churchill Winning Cup team pretty much straight out of the Leinster Academy (one Magners game).
He also won an U20 Grand Slam.
Anthony Foley singled him out for having a chance to make the world cup squad even though he had just played a Munster "A" game. He didn't suggest Denis Hurley or Johne Murphy, two more senior players would make it who can play fullback.
*by the way, he has missed 2 seasons through injury, one of them career threatening. Fairplay to him for coming back from those playing as well as he is playing.
in 2009 most fit professional rugby players who werent selected for the Lions or the Irish tour ended up on the Churchill cup tour.
Lets just take a step back, Jones has yet to start a HC game, he's yet to make an Irish squad, lets just give him a bit of time to establish himself as a starter for Munster.
Jones didnt miss two seasons through injury, he played for Munster last season and also played in the AIL with Shannon in the first part of the season.
i certainly think he's got great ability, however i wonder if his body is capable of a sustained run of games in professional rugby, hopefully if he stays fit he'll have a long career ahead of him.
In saying all this i'm looking forward to seeing the likes of irish lads such as Jones, Murray, Keatley, Earls, Zebo in the Munster backline next season.0 -
PhatPiggins wrote: »Kearney is a shoe in no matter how little rugby he plays so I don't see any point in including him in your post.
Foley was asked about Jones, he didn't volunteer the opinion and wasn't asked about Murphy or Hurley. The first didn't play in the game in mention and the second is injured. Above all he's hardly going to say negative things about a young player coming back from injury.
Kidney rates him and he doesn't rate Fitzgerald!!! Yeah right.
Fair play to him indeed but by simply repeating the same points over an over again doesn't make them any closer to being relevant.
I'm bored of this circular reasoning.
Leamy or McLaughlin?
I'd go with McLaughlin
I've been a huge fan of Leamy but this season he's been consistently average, i wonder if all his injuries have caught up on him.
As Munster seem to be playing Leamy at 6 he'd be up against Ferris, SOB & Locky for 6 in the world cup squad, i dont think he can be considered for 8 ahead of Heaslip of SOB so to be honest i cant see logic in bringing Leamy (based on this season's form, maybe a good rest over summer and he'll be back to his old self)
i'd be selecting Heaslip, SOB, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings, McLaughlin and if any of these are injured i'd look at Ruddock or Muldoon ahead of Leamy.0 -
in 2009 most fit professional rugby players who werent selected for the Lions or the Irish tour ended up on the Churchill cup tour.
Lets just take a step back, Jones has yet to start a HC game, he's yet to make an Irish squad, lets just give him a bit of time to establish himself as a starter for Munster.
Jones didnt miss two seasons through injury, he played for Munster last season and also played in the AIL with Shannon in the first part of the season.
i certainly think he's got great ability, however i wonder if his body is capable of a sustained run of games in professional rugby, hopefully if he stays fit he'll have a long career ahead of him.
In saying all this i'm looking forward to seeing the likes of irish lads such as Jones, Murray, Keatley, Earls, Zebo in the Munster backline next season.
The Churchill Cup was a development squad with mainly uncapped players involved. Capped players that missed the Lions tour played against Canada and the US.
Jones was picked at fullback ahead of Denis Hurley who is a Heineken Cup winning fullback.
His first injury was a freak accident and I suppose he had little chance of surviving a clash with Johnny O'Connor in his second injury.
You are correct when you say he didn't miss two seasons, he missed most of two seasons through injury. To be exact, he has played 12 games for Munster in his two seasons there - three of them in the last three weeks. All most people here are suggesting is that if he does well at this end of the season (6 more games and a possiblity of 2 more after that), he should be well in with a CHANCE to make the squad for the world cup warm-up games considering the injuries and competition to start at fullback that the existing Ireland starting fullbacks have.0 -
Have to say all this talk of Jones is so premature. He has a 'chance', as someone mentioned above, but I'd rate that chance of making the WC as being similar to D. Kearney, Conway and Morris - terribly unlikely.0
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Sin a bhfuil wrote: »The Churchill Cup was a development squad with mainly uncapped players involved. Capped players that missed the Lions tour played against Canada and the US.
Jones was picked at fullback ahead of Denis Hurley who is a Heineken Cup winning fullback.
His first injury was a freak accident and I suppose he had little chance of surviving a clash with Johnny O'Connor in his second injury.
You are correct when you say he didn't miss two seasons, he missed most of two seasons through injury. To be exact, he has played 12 games for Munster in his two seasons there - three of them in the last three weeks. All most people here are suggesting is that if he does well at this end of the season (6 more games and a possiblity of 2 more after that), he should be well in with a CHANCE to make the squad for the world cup warm-up games considering the injuries and competition to start at fullback that the existing Ireland starting fullbacks have.
that's my point re the Churchill Cup, you were saying Jones got selected from the Leinster Academy into the squad like it was a major achievement which it wasnt really. in the summer of 2009 irish caps were being handed out like confetti, Ian Whitten (straight from Ulster's academy), Darren Cave, Keatley, Caldwell etc all received caps.
On the plus side if Jones cements the Munster full back position it will mean Earls will get much more time on the wing where he will continue to improve, he was being shunted around far too much for his own good.0 -
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that's my point re the Churchill Cup, you were saying Jones got selected from the Leinster Academy into the squad like it was a major achievement which it wasnt really. in the summer of 2009 irish caps were being handed out like confetti, Ian Whitten (straight from Ulster's academy), Darren Cave, Keatley, Caldwell etc all received caps.
On the plus side if Jones cements the Munster full back position it will mean Earls will get much more time on the wing where he will continue to improve, he was being shunted around far too much for his own good.
The team that started in the Final against the English Saxons had none of the players you mention on the team. Starting ahead of Denis Hurley & Johne Murphy (both Heineken Cup players) was an achievement for someone who had only played 40 mins of Magners rugby and played for a small club like Seapoint.
IRELAND 'A': Felix Jones (Seapoint/Leinster); Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster), Fergus McFadden (UCD/Leinster), Keith Matthews (Buccaneers/Connacht), Johne Murphy (Leicester Tigers); Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Isaac Boss (Ballymena/Ulster); Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster), Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht), Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster), Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster), Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster), Neil Best (Northampton Saints) (capt), Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster), Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster).
Replacements used: Niall O'Connor (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) for Henry (44 mins), John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht) for O'Connor (52), Denis Fogarty (Cork Constitution/Munster) for Cronin (63), Bryan Young (Ballymena/Ulster) for Healy, Trevor Hogan (Blackrock College/Leinster) for Toner, Simon Keogh (Old Belvedere/Leinster) for Boss, James Downey (Northampton Saints) for Matthews (all 75).0 -
Sin a bhfuil wrote: »The team that started in the Final against the English Saxons had none of the players you mention on the team. Starting ahead of Denis Hurley & Johne Murphy (both Heineken Cup players) was an achievement for someone who had only played 40 mins of Magners rugby and played for a small club like Seapoint.
IRELAND 'A': Felix Jones (Seapoint/Leinster); Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster), Fergus McFadden (UCD/Leinster), Keith Matthews (Buccaneers/Connacht), Johne Murphy (Leicester Tigers);
How is a FB playing at FB ahead of two wingers an achievement. Both Hurley & Murphy started that game so the question at who's expense did he start?
He's a good player but still very inexperienced. I think if he had the full season he might have stood a chance of making the squad but the WC will come too soon for him.0 -
Mr.Applepie wrote: »How is a FB playing at FB ahead of two wingers an achievement. Both Hurley & Murphy started that game so the question at who's expense did he start?
He's a good player but still very inexperienced. I think if he had the full season he might have stood a chance of making the squad but the WC will come too soon for him.
Denis Hurley won a Heineken Cup medal at fullback for Munster (defeating Toulouse in the final).
Felix Jones was one of the most inexperienced players to make that team (and it wasn't made up of provincial academy players as suggested by bambozzle).0 -
Sin a bhfuil wrote: »The team that started in the Final against the English Saxons had none of the players you mention on the team. Starting ahead of Denis Hurley & Johne Murphy (both Heineken Cup players) was an achievement for someone who had only played 40 mins of Magners rugby and played for a small club like Seapoint.
IRELAND 'A': Felix Jones (Seapoint/Leinster); Denis Hurley (Cork Constitution/Munster), Fergus McFadden (UCD/Leinster), Keith Matthews (Buccaneers/Connacht), Johne Murphy (Leicester Tigers); Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster), Isaac Boss (Ballymena/Ulster); Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster), Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht), Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster), Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster), Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster), Neil Best (Northampton Saints) (capt), Niall Ronan (Shannon/Munster), Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster).
Replacements used: Niall O'Connor (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) for Henry (44 mins), John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht) for O'Connor (52), Denis Fogarty (Cork Constitution/Munster) for Cronin (63), Bryan Young (Ballymena/Ulster) for Healy, Trevor Hogan (Blackrock College/Leinster) for Toner, Simon Keogh (Old Belvedere/Leinster) for Boss, James Downey (Northampton Saints) for Matthews (all 75).
in my post i said 'Irish caps' those lads i mentioned Whitten, Cave, Keatley and Caldwell all received full Irish caps that summer and were on the full national squad tour of north america.0 -
Sin a bhfuil wrote: »Denis Hurley won a Heineken Cup medal at fullback for Munster (defeating Toulouse in the final).
Felix Jones was one of the most inexperienced players to make that team (and it wasn't made up of provincial academy players as suggested by bambozzle).
I think it's well established at this stage that Hurley is a winger and not a FB. By the looks of things Hurley was being played in his best position in that game so it's not as if Jones beat him to the jersey.
Say there are 9 spots for the centre's/backs. This is who I think will go:
1. BOD
2. D'Arcy
3. McFadden
4. P. Wallace
5. Bowe
6. Earls
7. Trimble
8. Kearney/Murphy
9. Fitzgerald
Who do you think will go?0 -
Totally agree with you there on the Leamy selection. Has had a poor season for us in Munster, hasnt carried that great and has given away a lot of penalties too. I would put James Coughlin ahead of him at the moment in terms of Munster players anyway. He has no chance of getting 8 on the Irish team with the players suggested and if McLoughlin keeps fit and progressing for rest of season i would bring him. He is a much different player to Leamy which is what we need in the WC especially in the lineout.I've been a huge fan of Leamy but this season he's been consistently average, i wonder if all his injuries have caught up on him.
As Munster seem to be playing Leamy at 6 he'd be up against Ferris, SOB & Locky for 6 in the world cup squad, i dont think he can be considered for 8 ahead of Heaslip of SOB so to be honest i cant see logic in bringing Leamy (based on this season's form, maybe a good rest over summer and he'll be back to his old self)
i'd be selecting Heaslip, SOB, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings, McLaughlin and if any of these are injured i'd look at Ruddock or Muldoon ahead of Leamy.0 -
LuckyGent88 wrote: »Totally agree with you there on the Leamy selection. Has had a poor season for us in Munster, hasnt carried that great and has given away a lot of penalties too. I would put James Coughlin ahead of him at the moment in terms of Munster players anyway. He has no chance of getting 8 on the Irish team with the players suggested and if McLoughlin keeps fit and progressing for rest of season i would bring him. He is a much different player to Leamy which is what we need in the WC especially in the lineout.
I think we can safely in pencil SOB/Wallace/Heaslip/Ferris(surely be fit by then). How many backrowers will travel, 5 at most. For the sake of something different I'd go with Jennings.
Coughlin has been terrific again this season, glad they left him at 8 where he belongs.0 -
Mr.Applepie wrote: »I think it's well established at this stage that Hurley is a winger and not a FB. By the looks of things Hurley was being played in his best position in that game so it's not as if Jones beat him to the jersey.
It wasn't back then though. Last game of the season that Hurley started was at fullback for Munster.Say there are 9 spots for the centre's/backs. This is who I think will go:
1. BOD
2. D'Arcy
3. McFadden
4. P. Wallace
5. Bowe
6. Earls
7. Trimble
8. Kearney/Murphy
9. Fitzgerald
Who do you think will go?
Centres: BOD, D'Arcy (backup - Wallace, Earls, McFaddan?)
Wings: Earls, Bowe & Trimble (backup - Fitzgerald?)
fullback: Kearney, Murphy (backup Duffy? & Jones?).
I think it will be a choice between Fitzgerald and McFadden. If either of Kearney or Murphy don't make it (and there is a possibility that neither will be fit) Jones will make it along with Duffy.
I think Fitzgerald has a lot of work to do in the next couple of weeks to earn his spot over McFadden.0 -
Mr.Applepie wrote: »Say there are 9 spots for the centre's/backs. This is who I think will go:
1. BOD
2. D'Arcy
3. McFadden
4. P. Wallace
5. Bowe
6. Earls
7. Trimble
8. Kearney/Murphy
9. Fitzgerald
Who do you think will go?
Agree; on the basis of a 16-14 forwards-backs split, and assuming three scrum-halves, ROG and JS will go, that leaves us nine places.
Firstly, we'll assume that everyone is fit:
BOD/D'Arcy/Bowe/Earls/Trimble are all locked in. I think Fitzgerald is a cert, as is Kearney.
So that leaves us two from Wallace, Murphy and McFadden; I reckon Wallace will go as emergency cover for out-half and Murphy to take the last spot. McFadden's probable lack of game time in the next few weeks will scupper him, but Murphy is definitely vulnerable, especially if Earls gets a bit more game time at FB during the warm-up games.
Shane Horgan will be overlooked completely :mad:0 -
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Sin a bhfuil wrote: »It wasn't back then though. Last game of the season that Hurley started was at fullback for Munster.
That doesn't mean he was any use at FB or our you saying he forgot how to play FB?Centres: BOD, D'Arcy (backup - Wallace, Earls, McFaddan?)
Wings: Earls, Bowe & Trimble (backup - Fitzgerald?)
fullback: Kearney, Murphy (backup Duffy? & Jones?).
I think it will be a choice between Fitzgerald and McFadden. If either of Kearney or Murphy don't make it (and there is a possibility that neither will be fit) Jones will make it along with Duffy.
I think Fitzgerald has a lot of work to do in the next couple of weeks to earn his spot over McFadden.
So you're only bringing 7 backs?
To put this into context let's compare Niall Morris & Felix Jones
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/profiles/index.php?player=33307&includeref=dynamic
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/squadprofiles.php?player=33240&includeref=dynamic
Both are full back/wingers
Both have played 6 games this season.
Morris has scored 3 tries to Jones's 1.
On this season's form I'd have Morris in the WC squad!0
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