Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

grohlisagod

I know that! It is an extremely specialised position, as demonstrated by the disaster that was Mauro Bergamasco. But I imagine that someone in the squad played there in their youth and could do a job in an emergency. I'd also assume that if we got to a situation where we had no fit scrum-halves we'd be allowed to call up someone else. So I assume your in the three scrum-half camp and that you'd be in favour of a 16/14 split?

If Reddan charges down a ball with his face again, and can't play the following game but would be fine for the next week's, we can't temporarily replace him from home without losing his services for the rest of the competition.

If TO'L's back gets stiff again in the warm up to a game, we then start the match with just one #9 and no cover.

etc etc

We just don't have anyone who can "cover" #9 other than our actual #9s. Nobody even close tbh.

(Funnily enough, if there was anyone in the entire extended Irish squad I would say is not a scrum-half, but could play there in times of emergency such as has been described above, it's TO'L)

If we had anyone who could cover #9 & AN Other position, they'd be a shoe-in for a spot in the WC panel imo.

Maybe Paddy Wallace could give it a crack?

LightningBolt

totallegend wrote: »

Barring injury, TOL is 100% certain to go and will be very much in the mix to be first choice. DK has little enough confidence in Reddan and seems to venerate TOL as some sort of man-god; blind religious devotion is the only explanation for his repeated selection.
Based on this, whoever goes as the 3rd SH (Murray/Boss/Stringer) will be going as emergency cover only so it makes very little difference who it is. On that basis, it might be worth bringing Murray for the experience, get him used to the squad etc. On the basis of consistent form over last season, it should be Boss.

Don't disagree with your assessment, realistically it's Reddan, TOL and one of the three you mention. My preference however would be for what I originally stated, we're all allowed to dream!

grohlisagod

My argument basically comes down to this, would you rather bring a seventh front row forward or a third scrum half?

Otacon

grohlisagod wrote: »

My argument basically comes down to this, would you rather bring a seventh front row forward or a third scrum half?

A third scrum half. Many of our backrowers can play multiple positions. But we have no-one to cover SH if injuries occur there.

EDIT: Oops

eoferrall

Otacon wrote: »

A third scrum half. Many of our backrowers can play multiple positions. But we have no-one to cover SH if injuries occur there.

front row, not back row.

Irish Sqaud that went to RWC 2007

Simon Best Prop 11 February 1978 19 Ulster
John Hayes Prop 2 November 1973 74 Munster
Marcus Horan Prop 7 September 1977 46 Munster
Bryan Young Prop 6 November 1981 8 Ulster
Rory Best Hooker 15 August 1982 13 Ulster
Jerry Flannery Hooker 17 October 1978 16 Munster
Frankie Sheahan Hooker 27 August 1976 28 Munster
Donncha O'Callaghan Lock 23 March 1979 35 Munster
Paul O'Connell Lock 20 October 1979 44 Munster
Malcolm O'Kelly Lock 19 July 1974 86 Leinster
Neil Best Flanker 3 April 1979 13 Ulster
Simon Easterby Flanker 21 July 1975 57 Scarlets
Stephen Ferris Flanker 2 September 1985 4 Ulster
Alan Quinlan Flanker 13 July 1974 25 Munster
David Wallace Flanker 8 July 1976 37 Munster
Denis Leamy Number 8 27 November 1981 22 Munster
Isaac Boss Scrum-half 9 April 1980 9 Ulster
Eoin Reddan Scrum-half 20 November 1980 3 Wasps
Peter Stringer Scrum-half 13 December 1977 76 Munster
Ronan O'Gara Fly-half 7 March 1977 72 Munster
Paddy Wallace Fly-half 27 August 1979 5 Ulster
Gordon D'Arcy Centre 10 February 1980 31 Leinster
Gavin Duffy Centre 18 September 1981 7 Connacht
Brian O'Driscoll (c) Centre 21 January 1979 75 Leinster
Brian Carney Wing 23 July 1976 3 Munster
Denis Hickie Wing 13 February 1976 58 Leinster
Shane Horgan Wing 18 July 1978 55 Leinster
Andrew Trimble Wing 20 October 1984 16 Ulster
Girvan Dempsey Fullback 2 October 1975 74 Leinster
Geordan Murphy Fullback

Are there any changes in the rules this time round? Squad sizes? Match day numbers etc? Or would we be looking at a like-for-like squad this time?

Gracelessly Tom

Not sure on the precise rules but would there be anything to stop Kidney bringing just two scrum halfs and the IRFU giving the 3rd choice scrum half a consolation all expenses paid trip to NZ?? That way we have three 9's out there and if we have to call one up he's there ready to go, no 24 hours travelling, no jet lag or acclimatisation, etc?

because if we replace someone, they are unavailable for the remainder of the tournament.

I thought we could "game" this quite well by naming some of our "less strong" players to play one of the minnows, then get "injured" and replaced by a starter in time for the next game.

Phonehead

grohlisagod wrote: »

My argument basically comes down to this, would you rather bring a seventh front row forward or a third scrum half?

If given the option of bringing Buckley or Horan over a 3rd SH - I chose a 3rd SH.

I think Buckley and Horan should probably go holidays somewhere close to NZ so that if needed the IRFU can have them flown in quickly.

totallegend

grohlisagod wrote: »

My argument basically comes down to this, would you rather bring a seventh front row forward or a third scrum half?

It will be both - regardless of whether it's 17-13 or 16-14 split, we won't travel with less than 7 front-rowers. It will be a minimum of
- Three hookers (Best, Cronin and Flannery if fit, otherwise Varley)
- Four props (Healy, Ross, Court and probably Buckley)
The debate is whether Kidney decides to bring a fifth prop. Since what we need is another tight-head and none of the others are up to international standard, I wouldn't bother and just pray nothing happens to Ross.

So I think it will be:
7 x Front-row
3 x Second-row (POC, DOC, Leo)
1 x Second/Back-row utility (D Ryan/K McLoughlin - I'd pick McLoughlin)
5 x Back-row (SOB, Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip, Leamy)

3 x SH (Reddan, TOL, Murray)
3 x OH (JS, ROG, PW)
3 x centres (BOD, D'Arcy, McFadden)
5 x Outside back (Earls, Kearney, Bowe, Trimble, Fitzgerald)

That's a 16-14 split and I think it gives us more than adequate cover in all positions.

Seeing the split like that, I think you'd be mad to ignore MOD for that spot vs Ryan vs McLaughlin.

Old head, wise shoulders, has played 6 enough times to know what's going on, and regardless of any of the 3 of them being chosen, they will more than likely only player between 10 and 15 minutes in 1 or 2 games vs decent opposition, and probably start at lock vs a minnow.

Also, I reckon you might have just about nailed the squad other than the maybe 3 debateable slots

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish Sqaud that went to RWC 2007



Are there any changes in the rules this time round? Squad sizes? Match day numbers etc? Or would we be looking at a like-for-like squad this time?

Nope, same rules apply so no reason to change it up.

My post (above) is basically the same squad layout as EOS went for in 2007, except he only brought two out-halves and had an extra outside back. Bringing Brian Carney paid off in spades, thus vindicating Eddie's choice.

sock puppet

CatFromHue wrote: »

Actually it's not unfeasable to just bring 2 scrum halves. It's a bit of a risk but could turn out benefical by freeing up a spot in the squad.

At the last World Cup Samoa, United States, Australia, Fiji, Italy, Portugal, Romania, Argentina, France (they did bring Michalek as a 10), and Namibia all only brought 2 scrum halves. Only Australia and France would have expected to get to the final when picking their squad. Interestingly Scotland only brought 1 fly half in Dan Parks. I'm not sure if there was anyone else who could play there at international level in Scotland though!

Don't know about the small teams but the the big nations there brought a 3rd player who could play scrumhalf. We don't have any utility players so have to bring 3 scrumhalves. It's similar to New Zealand who'll probably bring 2 outhalves to this world cup with Weepu in reserve.

edit: well obviously we don't have to bring 3 scrumhalves. But we'd be one of the few nations without a 3rd.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Seeing the split like that, I think you'd be mad to ignore MOD for that spot vs Ryan vs McLaughlin.

To be honest I don't think either Ryan or McLoughlin are really up to full international class in either position and MOD most certainly isn't. You're probably right though, the most logical thing would be to have a second-row who can play in the back-row rather than vice versa. Mike McCarthy maybe?

Gracelessly Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

because if we replace someone, they are unavailable for the remainder of the tournament.

I thought we could "game" this quite well by naming some of our "less strong" players to play one of the minnows, then get "injured" and replaced by a starter in time for the next game.

That's what I meant, if one of our 9's is injured and can't continue, we have one on a "consolation" trip already out there and ready to go.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

To be honest I don't think either Ryan or McLoughlin are really up to full international class in either position and MOD most certainly isn't. You're probably right though, the most logical thing would be to have a second-row who can play in the back-row rather than vice versa. Mike McCarthy maybe?

McCarthy would be worth his salt, but Kidney hasn't really had a chance to give him any gametime at all yet. Perhaps if he gets a run in August vs Scotland or xxx then he might be able to force a surprise inclusion.

Himself or Tuohy would be my preferred of the "2nd Row/Back Row" available to us, MOD my preferred for "2nd Row / Captain / Can cover BR in emergency" (that will be needed when POC / Cullen isn't playing), and then McLaughlin would be my preferred if we're going for a "Back Row / 2nd Row".

There's a serious distinction between the McCarthy&Tuohy group and the Ryan&McLaughlin group. (though after years of waiting for anything from Ryan, I'm afraid there's a serious difference between him and all others mentioned in this post)

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

That's what I meant, if one of our 9's is injured and can't continue, we have one on a "consolation" trip already out there and ready to go.

This is almost guaranteed to happen, the problem is what if TO'L gets a stiff back in the warm up, or Reddan goes face first to charge a ball down and needs to take the next day off? We can't start a game with no sub scrum half, but by replacing someone entirely we lose them for the rest, even if they were just not able to play that day.

wixfjord

Deleted User wrote: »

If Reddan charges down a ball with his face again, and can't play the following game but would be fine for the next week's, we can't temporarily replace him from home without losing his services for the rest of the competition.

If TO'L's back gets stiff again in the warm up to a game, we then start the match with just one #9 and no cover.

etc etc

We just don't have anyone who can "cover" #9 other than our actual #9s. Nobody even close tbh.

(Funnily enough, if there was anyone in the entire extended Irish squad I would say is not a scrum-half, but could play there in times of emergency such as has been described above, it's TO'L)

If we had anyone who could cover #9 & AN Other position, they'd be a shoe-in for a spot in the WC panel imo.

Maybe Paddy Wallace could give it a crack?

Luke Fitz I would say would be a good SH. It's always him who seems to go in if there's a SH dragged into a ruck.

wixfjord

wixfjord wrote: »

Luke Fitz I would say would be a good SH. It's always him who seems to go in if there's a SH dragged into a ruck.

Fitz is struggling to make the team as a winger in the first place though.

Tomtom364

Deleted User wrote: »

If we had anyone who could cover #9 & AN Other position, they'd be a shoe-in for a spot in the WC panel imo.

TO'L can cover wing and even 10 in an emergency...

Gracelessly Tom

Deleted User wrote: »

This is almost guaranteed to happen, the problem is what if TO'L gets a stiff back in the warm up, or Reddan goes face first to charge a ball down and needs to take the next day off? We can't start a game with no sub scrum half, but by replacing someone entirely we lose them for the rest, even if they were just not able to play that day.

I'd nearly take the risk. Realistically what are the chances of one of our 9's going injured before or early in a game? Slim I would think, so take the risk on bringing 2, if one is laid up for one match then have someone on standby as a make shift 9. Chances of 2 regular 9's being injured for the same game are miniscule and if it's against one of Russia or USA we'll be fine anyway.

I do see the argument for it being better to have the third one there and looking at him as opposed to not bringing him and looking for him, but if Kidney wanted more back up elsewhere it could be worth considering.

justsomebloke

wixfjord wrote: »

It's always him who seems to go in if there's a SH dragged into a ruck.

I thought Hines more then Luke filled the role for us when the SH was in the ruck

Gracelessly Tom

Tomtom364 wrote: »

TO'L can cover wing and even 10 in an emergency...

TO'L shouldn't even be travelling as a 9, let alone cover for elsewhere!

But I do see your point, this on top of Kidneys love for his fellow Dolphin will see TO'L getting on the plane for NZ.

Tomtom364

Tomtom364 wrote: »

TO'L can cover wing and even 10 in an emergency...

yup, that's what I'd alluded to in the previous post.

If only he'd realise he's not a scrum half and would give either of those positions a go he might be able to get some of us back cheering for him!

Gracelessly Tom

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

I'd nearly take the risk. Realistically what are the chances of one of our 9's going injured before or early in a game?

It happened in 2 of the 5 6N games.

RE: Make-shift 9, we just don't have any of them! That's why I reckoned if there was anyone at all available that played more than #9 they'd be a shoe in for the 3rd Scrum Half slot.

totallegend

Is there anyone on this board who thinks TOL is up to the job?

I don't think there's anyone else in the frame for RWC 2011 who gets such unanimous derision on these threads.

I've always thought he's in there for what he might do, rather than what he will/can do. Like, he might make a break around the edge of a ruck and power through his opposite number and in fairness, he's scored a few tries for Ireland like that.
Personally I'd much rather have a scrum-half who can pass the ball without giving the opposition five seconds to reform their defensive line every time. Going side to side and hammering away at ruck after ruck is not going to get us very far in the World Cup.

Thomas O'Leary is a fine rugby player, who plays at #9 for some inexplicable reason that doesn't suit any of his abilities or strenghts, and instead heaps attention on his weaknesses as a player.

Whichever of his first coaches told him he was a scrum half should be ashamed.

In terms of the main attributes a scrum half needs to excel, he has roundedly, hmmm, none of them.

molloyjh

Tbh I really do feel for TOL. As Emmet has said he really isn't a SH. And this "expansive" game Deccie wants us to play only serves to highlight that even more. There's just no logical reason for including the guy in a team that is looking to play with any kind of pace. And for some strange reason Deccie can't stop selecting him. Even with his back injury preventing him training with the team he was still first choice! Maybe it's the fact that Deccie is unable to completely embrace expansive rugby or that Gaffney can't fully deliver it but whatever it is I stopped blaming poor TOL a long time ago.

Careful Now

Worth remembering that Ian McGeechan selected TO'L in the lions squad. He was also starting scrum half when we won grand slam. I realise since then he hasn't played well. While I was never his biggest fan and would prefer a combo of reddan/boss/murray to go I think the criticism is a bit harsh on him and personally would be shocked if he didn't travel as at least 2nd choice.

danthefan

The Lions squad was selected in April 2009, which was 2 years and 3 months ago roughly. It is not remotely relevant to the coming RWC.