Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

theboss80

CatFromHue wrote: »

id give him a run out yeah.

as it stands i dont think he is ready yet. if he plays a perfect 10 in any game in august that would be a different story though.

if kearney plays better and/or looks more secure for the team i wouldnt bring jones.

i dont see room in the squad for two specialist full backs.

OK so hypothetically speaking , Jones plays a blinder and Kearney looks very rusty, at who's expense do you bring Jones ahead of or do you plough on with Kearney?

Never in a million years will it happen but I'd much prefer 2 full backs than 3 scrum halves ,

jolley123

Teferi wrote: »

Heard a rumour that Luke Fitz is pretty sick. Anyone know if he was at the Leister Open Training up in Tallaght or doing that thing in Nandos the other night?

He was training in Tallaght alright, dunno about Nandos.



With regards to the Jones debate. I see Kidney going with a 17/13 split. In which case, I would imagine these players going.

SH: Reddan, TOL, Stringer

OH: Sexton, O'Gara

CT: D'arcy, BOD, Wallace, McFadden

WG: Bowe, Earls, Trimble/Fitzgerald

FB: Kearney



The way I see it, Jones would either take McFadden or Trimble's spot. McFadden is a must go imo, seeing as he can play winger and both centres, (it is arguable whether he plays 12 well, but he plays there none the less).

I would not want him to take Trimble's spot, because Trimble is some-what more versatile, has more experience, and has played very well as of late.( the Earls, Bowe, Trimble axis looked very nice).


On an extra note. I can see Kidney going with Fitzgerald over Trimble.

thomond2006

Could anyone explain the logic of why Kidney would bring a 17/13 split?

LostPassword

thomond2006 wrote: »

Could anyone explain the logic of why Kidney would bring a 17/13 split?

7 forward spots are taken up by front rows. 17 players allows him to bring a back up for each of the back 5 spots - which are the most attritional in terms of non-serious injuries (bruising, concussion etc) where you aren't going to fly in replacements. With 16 forwards, one must be a dual second-row / back-row cover.

CatFromHue

theboss80 wrote: »

OK so hypothetically speaking , Jones plays a blinder and Kearney looks very rusty, at who's expense do you bring Jones ahead of or do you plough on with Kearney?

Never in a million years will it happen but I'd much prefer 2 full backs than 3 scrum halves ,

well he did pick o leary and hurley ahead of stringer and payne for munster before in the heineken cup quarters and kept with them through to the final.

the only thing about bringing 2 scrum halves is it is such a specialist position. similar to hooker really. none of our players from 10 out could play scrum half, but a few of them can and have played full back.

Foxtrol

CatFromHue wrote: »

well he did pick o leary and hurley ahead of stringer and payne for munster before in the heineken cup quarters and kept with them through to the final.

the only thing about bringing 2 scrum halves is it is such a specialist position. similar to hooker really. none of our players from 10 out could play scrum half, but a few of them can and have played full back.

This is also the Kidney who gave Mike Ross zero game time during the Autumn Internationals and SOB only one game (against Samoa).

I'd be very surprised if Jones or Murray get much time in the warm ups. Like it or lump it Kearney and TOL are coming back from injuries and will be given time to get up to speed. Unless Jones or Murray put in stunning performances in any time they are given or if there are further injury concerns I simply cant see them getting past one of Kidneys tried and tested options. They simply haven't proved themselves in matches near World Cup intensity. Unfortunately I think its just a year too early for them.

CatFromHue

in fairness buckley had a great end of season tour to oz and nz the season before and had done well at the start of this season. mike ross had been a bit player the season before and while he'd become first choice at the start of this season it didnt help that leinster weren't playing very well.

arg , sa, and nz would all be considered games we'd need our first choice 15 out for with only the samoa game for trying new thinsg out in. as it turned out you could have switched the samoa game with the arg game in that list.

kidney did pick hayes for the samoa game where he could have gone for ross. in fairness hayes didnt do too badly, most of the problems at scrum time were on courts side. ross had weaknesses in his game that only towards the end of the season we saw iron out.

i agree sob should have gotten more game time.

roycon

CatFromHue wrote: »

well he did pick o leary and hurley ahead of stringer and payne for munster before in the heineken cup quarters and kept with them through to the final.

the only thing about bringing 2 scrum halves is it is such a specialist position. similar to hooker really. none of our players from 10 out could play scrum half, but a few of them can and have played full back.

did they not win that final? and wasnt o'leary widely regarded as a huge addition to the team by pretty much all commentators and supporters compared to the narrow style game of stringer

CatFromHue

roycon wrote: »

did they not win that final? and wasnt o'leary widely regarded as a huge addition to the team by pretty much all commentators and supporters compared to the narrow style game of stringer

?

that was my point that kidney picked two younger inexperienced guys over two older established players.

Foxtrol

CatFromHue wrote: »

in fairness buckley had a great end of season tour to oz and nz the season before and had done well at the start of this season. mike ross had been a bit player the season before and while he'd become first choice at the start of this season it didnt help that leinster weren't playing very well.

arg , sa, and nz would all be considered games we'd need our first choice 15 out for with only the samoa game for trying new thinsg out in. as it turned out you could have switched the samoa game with the arg game in that list.

kidney did pick hayes for the samoa game where he could have gone for ross. in fairness hayes didnt do too badly, most of the problems at scrum time were on courts side. ross had weaknesses in his game that only towards the end of the season we saw iron out.

i agree sob should have gotten more game time.

Leinster were hitting their stride coming up to the Autumn Internationals with Ross playing a major part in the wins against Munster, Metro and Sarries, as well as their other Magners victories in October. A coach who was forward looking would have given him & SOB proper game time in November rather than those who already had ample experience. If he believed these matches, nearly a year before the world cup, were not the right time to blood players or try new combinations I just cant see him doing it a month beforehand (apart from maybe Scotland). On top of that the whole squad are coming off a summer break so he's going to also have to use the warm ups to get rid of the rust for his 1st 15/22 (and even more so for those coming off injuries). From the way he has brought players in since he's taken over Ireland I just cant see a player who hasn't been capped yet getting on the plane unless he absolutely forces Kidneys hand (not only just looking solid).

CatFromHue

Foxtrol wrote: »

Leinster were hitting their stride coming up to the Autumn Internationals with Ross playing a major part in the wins against Munster, Metro and Sarries, as well as their other Magners victories in October. A coach who was forward looking would have given him & SOB proper game time in November rather than those who already had ample experience. If he believed these matches, nearly a year before the world cup, were not the right time to blood players or try new combinations I just cant see him doing it a month beforehand (apart from maybe Scotland). On top of that the whole squad are coming off a summer break so he's going to also have to use the warm ups to get rid of the rust for his 1st 15/22 (and even more so for those coming off injuries). From the way he has brought players in since he's taken over Ireland I just cant see a player who hasn't been capped yet getting on the plane unless he absolutely forces Kidneys hand (not only just looking solid).

look at the stick robbie deans and peter de villiers got and are getting for not putting out first choice teams. look at the stick kidney got after the samoa game where cronin, court, toner, o brien, p wallace, luke fitz at 15 all started, none of which were first choice. people say they are for experimentation but usually aren't.

Foxtrol

CatFromHue wrote: »

look at the stick robbie deans and peter de villiers got and are getting for not putting out first choice teams. look at the stick kidney got after the samoa game where cronin, court, toner, o brien, p wallace, luke fitz at 15 all started, none of which were first choice. people say they are for experimentation but usually aren't.

If I had a choice I'd have used the AI's (and maybe the Scotland & Italy 6 nation matches) to try out different options. I don't mean massive changes but slotting in some less experienced players within the core group of experienced players.

We are, however, talking about who Kidney is likely to bring on the plane. Since he's taken over Ireland he has shown little desire to blood younger players unless it is due to injury or else in bulk (like Samoa), which in my eyes makes the process pointless. I just cant see why he'd change this a month before the world cup and give significant game time to Murray or Jones who, despite having good (nothing more) run ins, have not played in the HC level or even proved themselves consistently at Magners league level.

val_jester

GerM wrote: »

Whilst I would agree that it seems DK isn't his biggest fan, I think Trimble will definitely travel. His non-selection in the 6N was baffling and incorrect. His performance against England, along with being arguably our best player last summer would make it absolutely ridiculous if he was to be omitted. Whilst he hasn't played internationally in the centre for a long time, I wouldn't have an issue with him being in the 22 as someone that could cover there in the event of an injury. 7 of his 25 starts for Ireland have come in the centre with a further 5 caps there off the bench. He played centre in the HEC as recently as last season. He's not a fantastic distributor but he's a hard hitter and can run a hard line and ask questions of the defence. I'd have no issue with him starting in the middle against Russia or the USA although it won't happen.

Trimble was ruled out of the first few games with a broken hand, so I think Kidney might have made the correct decision in not picking him until he was fit.
Kidney likes him and I'm sure he will be selected. Earls, Bowe, Wallace, Trimble, Bod and Darcy will all go if fit.

CatFromHue

Foxtrol wrote: »

If I had a choice I'd have used the AI's (and maybe the Scotland & Italy 6 nation matches) to try out different options. I don't mean massive changes but slotting in some less experienced players within the core group of experienced players.

like who?
away games in the 6 nations are never easy. while we should have run out comfortable winners in both games we didnt.

Foxtrol

CatFromHue wrote: »

like who?
away games in the 6 nations are never easy. while we should have run out comfortable winners in both games we didnt.

I would have liked to have seen Cullen and Jennings being given a run out as we're still in the position of having serious second row partnership issues if something happens to POC/DOC and we haven't seen what a player of Jennings different attributes would bring to a full Irish team. Most of the changes Kidney didnt make in the AI's were forced on him (Ross & SOB) and I'm doubtful that Earls would have gotten as much time as he did if the backline wasn't ravaged by injury and McFadden wouldn't have had a look in at all.

grohlisagod

Who do people think should be the Irish scrum halves at the World Cup? For me it's reddan and one of stringer and murray. I would love to see murray start one of the warm up games to see if he can handle the international arena. He brings something entirely different to the position and out of stringer and himself, he's certainly the form guy. I like the idea of bringing an unknown quantity to the competition, an ace in the hole if you will.

thomond2006

grohlisagod wrote: »

Who do people think should be the Irish scrum halves at the World Cup? For me it's reddan and one of stringer and murray. I would love to see murray start one of the warm up games to see if he can handle the international arena. He brings something entirely different to the position and out of stringer and himself, he's certainly the form guy. I like the idea of bringing an unknown quantity to the competition, an ace in the hole if you will.

Scrumhalf is a specialist position so IMO you gotta bring 3 scrumhalves.

My choices would be Reddan, Murray and Stringer in that order of preference. That said I'd have no problem with Boss going instead of Strings.

My biggest worry is an out of form TOL is brought. He'll kill our RWC chances single handedly if he's first choice. On form he is a good player (not as good as Reddan/Murray) but at the moment even Paul Marshall is a much better choice than him.

LightningBolt

thomond2006 wrote: »

Scrumhalf is a specialist position so IMO you gotta bring 3 scrumhalves.

My choices would be Reddan, Murray and Stringer in that order of preference. That said I'd have no problem with Boss going instead of Strings.

My biggest worry is an out of form TOL is brought. He'll kill our RWC chances single handedly if he's first choice. On form he is a good player (not as good as Reddan/Murray) but at the moment even Paul Marshall is a much better choice than him.

Barring any sort of injury they're the scrum halfs I would like us to bring. Would absolutely love Murray to get some game time in the warm up games.

Careful Now

Think its important to bring one of either murray or jones. Need a 'bolter' in the squad to bring some freshness to the squad. Having a good young player coming into the squad out of the blue with envigorate the squad imo. My preference would be murray.

CatFromHue

Foxtrol wrote: »

I would have liked to have seen Cullen and Jennings being given a run out as we're still in the position of having serious second row partnership issues if something happens to POC/DOC and we haven't seen what a player of Jennings different attributes would bring to a full Irish team. Most of the changes Kidney didnt make in the AI's were forced on him (Ross & SOB) and I'm doubtful that Earls would have gotten as much time as he did if the backline wasn't ravaged by injury and McFadden wouldn't have had a look in at all.

I agree with Jennings get a bit more game time. He was on the tour to NZ and OZ last year were he didn't cover himself in glory. That was in a scratch back row though. There is also the fact that the back row for Ireland and Leinster is very competitive. Remember he didn't start the Heineken Semi or Final, Mcloughlin did.

Injuries and suspension's give alot of guys their break eg Sob when Jennings was injured, D'arcy when Bod was injured, Sexton when Contepomi was injured, I think even Healy got a bit of a break due to injury. It has also to be recognised that Kidney started Luke Fitz at full back when the safer options were Earls and/or Duffy. He probably showed too much loyalty to Luke Fitz in that occasion.

I'm not saying Kidney is the perfect coach, far from it but I do think he gets alot of unwarranted criticism. We've become very tabliodesque in relation to our sports teams and managers. Just look at whats happening with the irish soccer team. It's punching far above its weight yet still gets criticised for not doing better. Also look at how sharp the knives were from Schmidt and McGahan this season. Schmidt is now the saviour were as people were talking about sacking him in October!

totallegend

LightningBolt wrote: »

Barring any sort of injury they're the scrum halfs I would like us to bring. Would absolutely love Murray to get some game time in the warm up games.

Barring injury, TOL is 100% certain to go and will be very much in the mix to be first choice. DK has little enough confidence in Reddan and seems to venerate TOL as some sort of man-god; blind religious devotion is the only explanation for his repeated selection.
Based on this, whoever goes as the 3rd SH (Murray/Boss/Stringer) will be going as emergency cover only so it makes very little difference who it is. On that basis, it might be worth bringing Murray for the experience, get him used to the squad etc. On the basis of consistent form over last season, it should be Boss.

totallegend

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree with Jennings get a bit more game time. He was on the tour to NZ and OZ last year were he didn't cover himself in glory. That was in a scratch back row though. There is also the fact that the back row for Ireland and Leinster is very competitive. Remember he didn't start the Heineken Semi or Final, Mcloughlin did.

That was more down to Jennings returning from injury; I think most Leinster fans would regard the first-choice back-row as SOB at 6, Jennings at 7 and Heaslip at 8. I don't think anyone covered themselves in glory on that OZ/NZ tour either.
Realistically though, Jennings is not going to force his way into the first XV ahead of Wallace and the return of Ferris means four of the back-rows are set in stone; Jennings probably lacks the versatility you'd be looking for in a squad player so I don't see him making the plane.

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not saying Kidney is the perfect coach, far from it but I do think he gets alot of unwarranted criticism. We've become very tabliodesque in relation to our sports teams and managers. Just look at whats happening with the irish soccer team. It's punching far above its weight yet still gets criticised for not doing better. Also look at how sharp the knives were from Schmidt and McGahan this season. Schmidt is now the saviour were as people were talking about sacking him in October!

Ah, this gets overstated, no serious observer* of the game was talking about sacking him.

*George Hook is not a serious observer of the game,

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Barring injury, TOL is 100% certain to go and will be very much in the mix to be first choice

I really wish I didn't agree with this

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Ah, this gets overstated, no serious observer* of the game was talking about sacking him

George Hook was not the only pundit questioning Schmidt's ability to coach Leinster when he started. I remember hearing Thornley on radio voicing same.

David900

JustinDee wrote: »

George Hook was not the only pundit questioning Schmidt's ability to coach Leinster when he started. I remember hearing Thornley on radio voicing same.

I would imagine though that while Hook might have been calling for Schmidt's head in his typical sensationalist way, Thornley probably voiced his concern on the man's ability to be a head coach which he hadn't done before. Perfectly understandable way of looking at it at the time.

Foxtrol

CatFromHue wrote: »

I agree with Jennings get a bit more game time. He was on the tour to NZ and OZ last year were he didn't cover himself in glory. That was in a scratch back row though. There is also the fact that the back row for Ireland and Leinster is very competitive. Remember he didn't start the Heineken Semi or Final, Mcloughlin did.

Injuries and suspension's give alot of guys their break eg Sob when Jennings was injured, D'arcy when Bod was injured, Sexton when Contepomi was injured, I think even Healy got a bit of a break due to injury. It has also to be recognised that Kidney started Luke Fitz at full back when the safer options were Earls and/or Duffy. He probably showed too much loyalty to Luke Fitz in that occasion.

I'm not saying Kidney is the perfect coach, far from it but I do think he gets alot of unwarranted criticism. We've become very tabliodesque in relation to our sports teams and managers. Just look at whats happening with the irish soccer team. It's punching far above its weight yet still gets criticised for not doing better. Also look at how sharp the knives were from Schmidt and McGahan this season. Schmidt is now the saviour were as people were talking about sacking him in October!

I wasn't having a go at Kidney there, I was showing that he hasn't shown any desire to experiment previously so I really can't see how this is going to change when it comes to giving Murray or Jones decent game time a month before WC and even if they are given it they will have to perform well above what they've shown thus far to leapfrog players who have international, Lions & HC experience.

Saying that guys get breaks due to injuries is one thing but the problem Murray & Jones have is that the squad is coming back off summer break with nearly no injury issues and even if Kidney did go against everything he's shown thus far with Ireland and went on an experimental rampage in the the warm ups there are other players who could be seen as more deserving of equal or more game time. For Murray there are 4 warm up matches and 5 options for SH, with Kidneys favourite TOL being one. He's coming back from long term injuries and if he has a howler in a warm up match I cant see Kidney not giving him a second chance. Same goes for Jones at full back where theres Kearney returning from injury with further competition for potential game time from Duffy and Murphy.

grohlisagod

Why do people insist on bringing three scrum-halves? This isn't a Lions tour, as far as I know there's only 30 spots available. It should be a 17-13 split. That means there's only room for 2 scrum-halves and I think that's plenty. What's the point in bringing an average 3rd scrum-half to not even sit on the bench? I think there's enough good passers in the Irish setup to fill the position in an emergency.

Risteard

Scrum half is about more than passing.

Phonehead

In my opinion you have to bring 3 in your squad! SH is a position that requires more skills than just being able to pass the ball, your sh is the playmaker. If TOL goes then we are no hopers in the WC, if Kidney shows such blind faith to bring a guy who wouldn't shine in the AIL this past 2 years, then he is probably stupid enough to have him as first or second choice s/h. I am even getting annoyed and the squad hasn't been announced:mad:

CatFromHue

Actually it's not unfeasable to just bring 2 scrum halves. It's a bit of a risk but could turn out benefical by freeing up a spot in the squad.

At the last World Cup Samoa, United States, Australia, Fiji, Italy, Portugal, Romania, Argentina, France (they did bring Michalek as a 10), and Namibia all only brought 2 scrum halves. Only Australia and France would have expected to get to the final when picking their squad. Interestingly Scotland only brought 1 fly half in Dan Parks. I'm not sure if there was anyone else who could play there at international level in Scotland though!