Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

cp

Kevin McLaughlin would give the kind of physicality and work-rate required for an arm wrestle with this week’s visitors, whereas switching Peter O’Mahony to blindside to accommodate Chris Henry, whom the coaching staff have always been sweet on, would augment the breakdown work of Heaslip and Strauss.

I normally refrain from criticizing our press who have a difficult job balancing the need to secure access to players, management, with the need to be objective and insightful, but this is getting ridiculous now.

There are several problems with this piece in general, but this statement in particular got my ire up.

Firstly: "Switching Peter O'Mahony from 7".. What exactly is the criteria for declaring O'Mahony is the incumbent 7 here?? He's played there ONCE this year. He is blatantly NOT a 7.

Secondly: "Chris Henry, whom the coaching staff have always been sweet on"... has gotten exactly TWO caps under Kidney. Two.

patently clear that Geobbels has the team by now. He usually does, and everyone knows that. But the shameless schilling for kidneys pet selections is enough to make you cry.

Tox56

I guess that suggests if Ferris had been fit POM would have played 7

bilston

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It makes a bit of sense in fairness.

Henry had a great season in 2008/2009 as a no. 8 but he was pretty inexperienced and so he went and played in the Churchill Cup (with the likes of Healy). He was excellent there as well.

He returned to Ulster and everyone was really excited for him but his form dropped off a cliff until last season. So it's completely understandable he wasn't capped during that period.

Then last season he started to play brilliantly again (starting to really turn heads when Clermont came to Ravenhill in November). He was doing excellently and was in line for a cap until he got injured and he missed the 6 Nations.

Then he was brought to New Zealand. I think he should have played more down there but he was in form as a 7 and Sean O'Brien is our first-choice openside so there's not really a huge complaint from me. Kevin McLoughlin played well anyway and justified his selection.

Just on Henry his form did drop off a bit a couple of years ago but I believe it coincided with the passing of his father...I'm not making excuses for him but you can imagine that would have affected him.

He was hard done by in NZ though, not in being behind SOB obviously but in being behind O'Mahony and McLaughlin. Whether McLaughlin justified his selection or not is a moot point in the sense that Henry never got a chance to justify his selection. But as I said if Saturday is the start of Henry's test career proper (whether in the team or as back up to O'Brien) then I doubt anyone will be thinking about the NZ tour in two or three years time.

danthefan

bilston wrote: »

Just on Henry his form did drop off a bit a couple of years ago but I believe it coincided with the passing of his father...I'm not making excuses for him but you can imagine that would have affected him.

He was hard done by in NZ though, not in being behind SOB obviously but in being behind O'Mahony and McLaughlin. Whether McLaughlin justified his selection or not is a moot point in the sense that Henry never got a chance to justify his selection. But as I said if Saturday is the start of Henry's test career proper (whether in the team or as back up to O'Brien) then I doubt anyone will be thinking about the NZ tour in two or three years time.

McLaughlin and Henry don't play in the same position. They're completely different players.

bilston

danthefan wrote: »

McLaughlin and Henry don't play in the same position. They're completely different players.

I was thinking more of the bench spot, but in fairness I can't even remember the line ups for the summer tests and my point about McLaughlin was more in response to Buccs who suggested he had been picked ahead of Henry...so there...

irishbucsfan

Interesting I don't think Earls and Zebo have the same attributes at all. Zebo has a better kicking game, a lot better actually IMO

The selection of Earls and Zebo is, to me, about shortening the phases and giving us an outlet for possession. The opposite of running the ball. Running the ball would be more exciting to watch but we don't have the forwards to prevent turnovers and so it could well be suicide. Look at the South African team. Their big weakness is the kicking game. Kitchener and Lambie should be targeted, put the pressure on them. Get the ball in the air and get Trimble, Bowe and Zebo (and to a lesser extent Earls) chasing it and targeting their back 3. That's what I want to see.

Whether or not Zebo is up to that I have no idea but I'm excited to find out. I'd be fairly sure Earls wouldn't be, I've never been anywhere near convinced by him in that position... 13 is definitely where he's going to help us the most in the long term. Zebo may be an atrocious 15 but hopefully the coaches have seen enough to suggest he isn't.

Tox56

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

Quint2010

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Zebo Bowe Earls DArcy Trimble Sexton Murray; Healy Strauss Ross Ryan McCarthy O'Mahony Heaslip (c). Kilcoyne and Henderson on bench

Peter O Reilly just tweeted

One would assume ROG is now on the bench. But apart from that it's the strongest team we have IMO

Happy enough with that team apart from Murray. Delighted to see McCarthy at second row and Kilcoyne on the bench ahead of Court. I have never rated Court. Great for Henderson too. Well done Kidney

Seph503

If that was the team I'd be quite happy. Even if it is mostly injury enforced at least we'll get to see a (slightly) different Ireland take the field.

Fingers crossed they do themselves proud.

Winters

Tox56 wrote: »

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

If Cave isn't starting then McFadden will get the nod over him on the bench due to his versatility and national team experience.

artvandelay48

Is McFadden injured? I would have thought that he would be better at 13 so that Earls could move to 15 since at least he has some experience there. I think McFadden's looked pretty sharp so far this year

Winters

McFadden can cover 11, 12 (His best position), 13 and 14 but in my opinion Earls is a better 13 than Ferg.

Tox56

Winters wrote: »

If Cave isn't starting then McFadden will get the nod over him on the bench due to his versatility and national team experience.

I think there's a difference between suggesting someone for the centre and suggesting them for the utility back spot. From what they were saying I presumed they were talking about starting options.

artvandelay48

But surely its not a case of whether earls is better than mcfadden at 13 but rather who is the better 15 earls or zebo? Mcfadden at 13 and earls at 15 have more experience in their positions than zebo at 15. It would mean that trimble would drop to the bench to accommodate zebo but surely it would minimise our positional inexperience.

totallegend

Shelflife wrote: »

Has Zebo played at full back before?

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

irishbucsfan

I think it'll be a while before McFadden goes anywhere near that Irish 13 jersey.

It would be Cave if not Earls, surely. Zebo is supposedly pretty comfortable with playing 15 and has done so for Cork Con. He just hasn't been tried there for Munster (which is definitely a concern).

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

Fireball07

Cave is a lot better than McFadden at 13 imo. But McFadden is a better bench option.


So we're assuming it's ROG on the bench, not Jackson? Can't have everything, I suppose.... Can't wait to see what Henderson will be like off the bench

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

Not necessarily, but there's 4 named players who have at least played FB at Rabo and/or HC level, which is 100% definitely a higher level than AIL. Yet they never entered Kidney's consciousness when it came to the national team.

Again, because I know people are going to be saying "I told you so" if Zebo plays well, I'm not too worried about Zebo's abilities at FB, just the nonsense way of dressing it up as though the cupboard was bare which it very much is not.

Edit: a) we don't even know how many times Zebo has played there for Cork Con and b) I haven't even mentioned Niall Morris or Robbie Henshaw.

postitnote

I've been lurking for a good long while her.

I'm just as interested as the rest of you at who is going to play on Saturday, but is there much point speculating at this point when the team announcement is only 90 mins away.

Sure it's nice to have an opinion and all that, but right now an opinion based on hearsay and rumour is about as useful as a chocolate frying pan.

Plus, some of the comments are kind of sucking the fun out of watching Ireland play on Sat.

I will always cheer them on, regardless of who is playing and regardless of who is in charge.

Save the post mortem for after the match.

Finally, I agree Kidney seems a bit of a goat and incapable of picking his own nose correctly.

I shall continue my lurking and very infrequent posting lest I be shot down.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're making the assumption that Ireland U20 is a higher level than AIL.

it is

Tox56

postitnote wrote: »

I've been lurking for a good long while her.

I'm just as interested as the rest of you at who is going to play on Saturday, but is there much point speculating at this point when the team announcement is only 90 mins away.

Sure it's nice to have an opinion and all that, but right now an opinion based on hearsay and rumour is about as useful as a chocolate frying pan.

Plus, some of the comments are kind of sucking the fun out of watching Ireland play on Sat.

I will always cheer them on, regardless of who is playing and regardless of who is in charge.

Save the post mortem for after the match.

Finally, I agree Kidney seems a bit of a goat and incapable of picking his own nose correctly.

I shall continue my lurking and very infrequent posting lest I be shot down.

I would be amazed if many here thought differently.

geekington

As much as I'd love to see us runnnig the ball from all over the pitch, the best running team on the planet (NZ) struggled to break from fee from the SA stranglehold in the games in the championship!

If SA had a kicker they would have won the home game easily!

NZ won the game by keeping it tight and playing off first phase ball!

Should be very interesting..

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

Has done at Cork Con, according to Thornley at least. This, apparently, qualifies him as one of the only two choices.

Never mind Ian Madigan, Craig Gilroy and Dave Kearney who played for Ireland u20 at FB and have actually gone on to do so at provincial level, Madigan doing so at Heineken Cup level, as did Keatley.

I think Zebo will do fine, but there's some awful sh*te being talked around his selection.

We don't actually know whether Kidney considered them though. And the likes of Earls, Hurley, Jones, Bowe have all done so too. So has Johne Murphy!


It's not something I'd have done but Zebo could be a great full-back. Can we at least wait to see how he does before we criticise him for it?

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

Not necessarily, but there's 4 named players who have at least played FB at Rabo and/or HC level, which is 100% definitely a higher level than AIL. Yet they never entered Kidney's consciousness when it came to the national team.

Again, because I know people are going to be saying "I told you so" if Zebo plays well, I'm not too worried about Zebo's abilities at FB, just the nonsense way of dressing it up as though the cupboard was bare which it very much is not.

Edit: a) we don't even know how many times Zebo has played there for Cork Con and b) I haven't even mentioned Niall Morris or Robbie Henshaw.

You don't know that they haven't entered his consciousness. Of course they did. He has made the decision to start Zebo.

Madigan and Keatley would be very poor selections at 15 (they can't get up the field vertically, I don't think they'd suit what I think we're going to try to do).

Craig Gilroy hasn't started at 15 for Ulster. He's in the exact same camp as Zebo there. His kicking game is one of his flaws IMO, last year some of his kicking was very dodgy.

I have no idea about Henshaw. It's very hard to say how he'd compare. Maybe he'd be able for it, maybe not. He's extremely inexperienced and I haven't seen much of him.

I'd like to see Niall Morris involved. Definitely. Unfortunately he's overseas. I think if he was still with Leinster he'd be starting for Ireland this weekend.


Where is your source saying that no one else entered Kidneys consciousness? Seems a bit unrealistic to me.

postitnote

Tox56 wrote: »

I would be amazed if many here thought differently.

Granted it's a minority, but sometimes it does feel like there are people here would like to see every facet of our game picked apart on saturday and be on the end of another 60-0.

Maybe i'm being too cynical. Or maybe it's my leaving this thread for a day or two and coming back to wade through a dozen pages of hearsay and opinion that just gets me down.

Please don't anybody stop it though, I enjoy the heated debates without ploughing in with my own opinions. Guess i'm a masochist. Guess we all are.

geekington

While Zebo to FB wouldn't have been my call, I'm actually looking forward to see how he goes. No one can deny has a spark and can create something.

It will be a massive test of his character if he drops a few early balls under pressure... could be the making of him in the long run though if all goes well!

Fireball07

I'd be shocked if he drops a few high balls, considering that is a real strength of his.

I'd be more worried about him not being in the right place and leaving massive spaces for SA to exploit. The likes of Bowe will have to guide him through the game a bit... and I'd be shocked if SA didn't try to pressurise him an awful lot- a guy playing his first ever senior game at 15 in a big international match looks like an easy target.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

Just looking at the article in the Indo and their suggestions for the centre are: Earls, D'Arcy, Bowe/McFadden

No mention of Cave anywhere, is he carrying an injury or something we don't know about? I find it hard to believe he is behind Bowe or McFadden in the pecking order.

It's the Indo.

irishbucsfan

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'd be shocked if he drops a few high balls, considering that is a real strength of his.

I'd be more worried about him not being in the right place and leaving massive spaces for SA to exploit. The likes of Bowe will have to guide him through the game a bit... and I'd be shocked if SA didn't try to pressurise him an awful lot- a guy playing his first ever senior game at 15 in a big international match looks like an easy target.

But which Saffer is going to be able to exploit him? If Steyn was starting I'd be worried about that, but he's not.