Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

brinty

Ciaran as opposed to a 20 year old kid, barely wet behind the ears...who is also lucky to start for his province..not a pop at young Paddy, in time he'll be good back up for Jonny Sexton..if we end up with a half back combo of reddan/marshall and jackson we'll lose by 20+...plus ye have to take into account D'arcy knows Rog better than he would Jackson..and he's been covering for Rog for years too..alonf with Wally..thats all if ands or buts..just trying to give a bit of perspective to the debate..

tolosenc

shuffol wrote: »

Not meaning to fan the flames but can anybody name me a single Munster player who's been hard done by with regard to inernational recognition during Kidneys reign. I cant think of any myself.

Coughlan a few seasons ago was unlucky not to get a call up, but he's a few years older than Heaslip, who is and was miles better than him.

Ryan being behind DOC, but that's Munster getting ahead of Munster.

There really aren't examples on the scale of Ross, Tuohy, SOB, Reddan, Madigan, Jackson, Gilroy, Cave, etc. that apply to Munster.

jacothelad

Tox56 wrote: »

What exactly are you suggesting? Munster players have more "pride for the jersey" or something?

OF course...by the grace of God means a lot.

thomond2006 wrote: »

TOL


...runs...

Have you no work to be getting on with? Turn off that lap top and get the books out.

brinty wrote: »

But Rog won't start

Has he tried getting a push or getting the plugs cleaned?

Foxtrol

brinty wrote: »

Ciaran as opposed to a 20 year old kid, barely wet behind the ears...who is also lucky to start for his province..not a pop at young Paddy, in time he'll be good back up for Jonny Sexton..if we end up with a half back combo of reddan/marshall and jackson we'll lose by 20+...plus ye have to take into account D'arcy knows Rog better than he would Jackson..and he's been covering for Rog for years too..alonf with Wally..thats all if ands or buts..just trying to give a bit of perspective to the debate..

I presume you also agree that it was wrong for Kidney to previously fast track inexperienced Murray, Zebo and POM into the Irish squad ahead of more experienced options?

irishbucsfan

goreyguy wrote: »

we are going to beat SA by being more physical than them, so murray should not be starting. Get Reddan in there and get the backs moving fast

We are not going to beat South Africa by moving the backs. Very few teams can.

And starting Murray doesnt mean we're going to try to be more physical than them. That's not the only type of game he's good at.

brinty

Foxtrol wrote: »

I presume you also agree that it was wrong for Kidney to previously fast track inexperienced Murray, Zebo and POM into the Irish squad ahead of more experienced options?

Foxtrol...who were these players fast tracked ahead off????

Only asking...not trying to troll here

RoundBox11

brinty wrote: »

Jaysus i don't post for a few days and still the same old garbage....
FFS i'm sick up to my back teeth listening to this sh1t...
I hope we hammer the boks at the weekend and then destroy Fiji and Argetina and do a grand slam and shut people the hell up..but i doubt even if that happened people would still quibble..
Kidney can't do right or wrong with everyone on here...
If he picks a player he's wrong, if he leaves said player out he's wrong...FFS people he's picked the best players we have available....
From the original squad he picked 14 ulster and 12/13 leinster players and 9/10 munster players lads...but he still has a Munster bias..gimme a break
If he picks sexton as captain people will bitch and moan and say it should be Heaslip...and vice versa
If he puts jackson on the bench instead of O'gara and heaven forbid sexton is injured..we've a kid not playing senior rugby six months leading the team...get real...O'gara has to be on the bench
Murray will start because the boks have a huge backrow who will run over reddan and marshall
Would people try and be a bit reasonable and step back from their Kidney hating and actually look and see we have fup all alternatives..

Sure isn't that the nature of Boards?

It wouldn't be much fun if we all agreed on everything now

brinty

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Sure isn't that the nature of Boards?

It wouldn't be much fun if we all agreed on everything now

I guess your right on that RoundBox...but it does sicken your h**e when people are so blinded by their provincial loyalties and hatred of Kidney and every decision he makes

jacothelad

brinty wrote: »

I guess your right on that RoundBox...but it does sicken your h**e when people are so blinded by their provincial loyalties and love of Kidney and every decision he makes

Fixed. Ironic?

Lelantos

brinty wrote: »

I guess your right on that RoundBox...but it does sicken your h**e when people are so blinded by their provincial loyalties and hatred of Kidney and every decision he makes

Has anyone else noticed the KidneyClock has been reset to 4 & 1/2 years

mfceiling

brinty wrote: »

Ciaran as opposed to a 20 year old kid, barely wet behind the ears...who is also lucky to start for his province..not a pop at young Paddy, in time he'll be good back up for Jonny Sexton..if we end up with a half back combo of reddan/marshall and jackson we'll lose by 20+...plus ye have to take into account D'arcy knows Rog better than he would Jackson..and he's been covering for Rog for years too..alonf with Wally..thats all if ands or buts..just trying to give a bit of perspective to the debate..

How is paddy Jackson lucky to start for his province? Is he keeping out the wonderful NOC?

Foxtrol

Lelantos wrote: »

Not sure what's meant here, are we saying that Kidney didn't treat Carr well?

I'm saying Zebo had the same positioning and defensive frailties last season as Carr had at that point but this was ignored due to his strike rate and was given a cap against NZ while Carr was practically ignored despite being top/near top try scorer for a couple of seasons, more than once in lieu of the uninspiring Dowling.

As I said previously I dont have a massive issue over the 2009 tour and apologies for derailing the thread as this is probably the least of Kidney's sins but I wanted to add Dowlings selection to the larger list of at best 50/50 calls that have each favoured the Munster player.

I mentioned earlier the Moles article which is actual directed at the squad selection for the tour but touches on the Munster bias angle and goes through it far more eloquently than I could.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/04/u-mad-bro/

Lelantos

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm saying Zebo had the same positioning and defensive frailties last season as Carr had at that point but this was ignored due to his strike rate and was given a cap against NZ while Carr was practically ignored despite being top/near top try scorer for a couple of seasons, more than once in lieu of the uninspiring Dowling.

As I said previously I dont have a massive issue over the 2009 tour and apologies for derailing the thread as this is probably the least of Kidney's sins but I wanted to add Dowlings selection to the larger list of at best 50/50 calls that have each favoured the Munster player.

I mentioned earlier the Moles article which is actual directed at the squad selection for the tour but touches on the Munster bias angle and goes through it far more eloquently than I could.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/04/u-mad-bro/

Sorry, but life is way too short for me to go picking holes in that. This thread gets heated enough at times

TheGoldenAges

Lelantos wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed the KidneyClock has been reset to 4 & 1/2 years

:eek: maybe they know something we don't

Lelantos

TheGoldenAges wrote: »

:eek: maybe they know something we don't

Before I cause coronarys, twas a joke

TheGoldenAges

Lelantos wrote: »

Before I cause coronarys, twas a joke

*phew*
Back on topic does anyone have any idea of a likely Boks team?

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

How is paddy Jackson lucky to start for his province? Is he keeping out the wonderful NOC?

He is lucky Ian Humphreys decamped to London Irish having been dropped after winning in Thomond Park last season and Ruan Pienaar has been there to guide him.

Paul Marshall was dropped for Pienaar despite getting MOTM against Castres.

Quint2010

"This is a squad (the tour to NZ) whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?"

That's pretty stark. You cant blame people for suspecting a Munster bias.

Lelantos

Quint2010 wrote: »

"This is a squad (the tour to NZ) whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?"

That's pretty stark. You cant blame people for suspecting a Munster bias.

If you look for conspiracies, eventually you will find them.

brinty

Quint2010 wrote: »

"This is a squad (the tour to NZ) whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?"

That's pretty stark. You cant blame people for suspecting a Munster bias.

Ok I'm gonna picka hole in that....

Murray..who else was there..Boss, wasn;t starting for leinster...TOL and Stringer were behind CM at Munster..Marshall was barely playing at Ulster..Only Reddan was ahead and he started v Oz and was outperformed by Murray!!!

Zebo....What other winger did we have instead of Zebo..a starter for Munster..Gilroy, not always a starter for Ulster.. Baby Kearney was having surgery..ok...i'll give you that one

Sherry..what other choices had we at hooker..em sherry/varley or ??????...there was no one else..

POM..what other regular starters for their provinces we're there who covered all 3 back row slots..maybe Henry..Locky was injured and only covered 6....

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm saying Zebo had the same positioning and defensive frailties last season as Carr had at that point but this was ignored due to his strike rate and was given a cap against NZ while Carr was practically ignored despite being top/near top try scorer for a couple of seasons, more than once in lieu of the uninspiring Dowling.

As I said previously I dont have a massive issue over the 2009 tour and apologies for derailing the thread as this is probably the least of Kidney's sins but I wanted to add Dowlings selection to the larger list of at best 50/50 calls that have each favoured the Munster player.

I mentioned earlier the Moles article which is actual directed at the squad selection for the tour but touches on the Munster bias angle and goes through it far more eloquently than I could.

http://dementedmole.com/2012/06/04/u-mad-bro/

Carr didn't score any tries in the HCup or get any MOTMs in them (and he still hasn't).

Last season Carr scored 5 tries for Leinster (20 games).
Zebo scored 12 tries (23 games).

Dowling had fantastic defence and never ever turned over the ball.

Dowling also performed really well against the ABs in Thomond Park in 2008 (as well as performing well in 2 Heineken Cup finals).

You should read some of the comments on that blog.

Foxtrol

brinty wrote: »

Foxtrol...who were these players fast tracked ahead off????

Only asking...not trying to troll here

Im going to take a leaf out of lelantos' book and say that life is too short to respond to this. Have a look back through this thread and the one for the World Cup, 6 Nations and Summer Tour and you'll see plenty on it.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Carr didn't score any tries in the HCup or get any MOTMs in them (and he still hasn't).

Last season Carr scored 5 tries for Leinster (20 games).
Zebo scored 12 tries (23 games).

Dowling had fantastic defence and never ever turned over the ball.

Dowling also performed really well against the ABs in Thomond Park in 2008 (as well as performing well in 2 Heineken Cup finals).

You should read some of the comments on that blog.

We're talking about Carr in 2009 vs Zebo in 2012 not Carr 2012 vs Zebo 2012.

So you think we should have started a more defensive orientated winger ahead of Zebo then in NZ?

If Heineken Cup gametime counts so much what was Murray doing on the plane?

You really have the same issue as Kidney, there's absolutely no logic to your selection policy or the excuses you give for Kidney's selections.

jm08

Quint2010 wrote: »

"This is a squad (the tour to NZ) whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?"

That's pretty stark. You cant blame people for suspecting a Munster bias.

Munster has just brought through a rake of young players who are starting for Munster. Leinster & Ulster have fairly settled teams now.

Who is excluded who is starting for the other provinces instead of these players?

Who should have gone instead of Mike Sherry?
Kearney would have gone ahead of Zebo if he didn't have an op (he was in on the bench for the game against Wales in the 6Ns).

The only player who was in contention, who might have been in there is Craig Gilroy, but maybe it was foreseen that he was probably going to have a bit part in Ulster this season, now that Tommy Bowe was going back.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Quint2010 wrote: »

"This is a squad (the tour to NZ) whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?"

That's pretty stark. You cant blame people for suspecting a Munster bias.

Who would you have selected to tour (and get no gametime) ahead of Sherry? A hooker was needed, and Sherry was the best option. Sherry has yet to receive a cap.

The Zebo selection has been done to death, but any of his great performances (his NH hattrick game was as good as anything any Irish player produced) last year are being papered over in order to make it look like Kidney was being biased. His performances this year have so far shown that Kidney made the correct selection.

POM deserved his call up during the 6N, anyone who denies that hasn't a notion. Murray again deserved his WC call up. He was the form Irish 9 and there was no other realistic option to tour as #3.

What other players have deserved a callup - Gilroy and Kearney aside - in that time period. Neither Ulster or Leinster had many young players breaking into their sides that should have been called up into the squad. The only player who I can think of besides the wingers was Ian Madigan, who Kidney apparently wanted to bring to NZ but wasn't allowed to.

The WoC - a fan like all of us - selected a sample which made his argument look good when in fact it was pretty non-existent. Munster have had a huge turnover of personnel recently which has allowed young lads to step up and become key players, this didn't happen at the other provinces until recently where young Ulster lads have stepped up and Kidney has included them in the squad.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

We're talking about Carr in 2009 vs Zebo in 2012 not Carr 2012 vs Zebo 2012.

So you think we should have started a more defensive orientated winger ahead of Zebo then in NZ?

If Heineken Cup gametime counts so much what was Murray doing on the plane?

You really have the same issue as Kidney, there's absolutely no logic to your selection policy or the excuses you give for Kidney's selections.

Carr & Zebo playing the same teams in the same season is a much better measure of where they are at. It shows that Kidney's call was correct. Zebo has more to his game than Carr (great boot and good in the air for starters). Zebo's defence was never as poor as Carrs. In NZ, Savea who scored 3 tries was on McFadden's side.

I'd still contend that the Churchill Cup was the better part of the Tour to be included in that season which is what Carr got selected for. McFadden, Healy, Sexton, Felix Jones were all capped from that tour.

molloyjh

The problem isn't the number of Munster players introduced. It's the ease at which they made the squad compared to players from other provinces. Other players have to wait to get included and are overlooked until injury forces their inclusion or they've consistently shown their form. The likes of Murray, POM and Zebo didn't have to wait as long or do as much.

Quint2010

molloyjh wrote: »

The problem isn't the number of Munster players introduced. It's the ease at which they made the squad compared to players from other provinces. Other players have to wait to get included and are overlooked until injury forces their inclusion or they've consistently shown their form. The likes of Murray, POM and Zebo didn't have to wait as long or do as much.

Murray had to do practically nothing to get into the squad and even less to get the no. 9 jersey itself.

goreyguy

Hopefully DOC isnt near the bench.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Quint2010 wrote: »

Murray had to do practically nothing to get into the squad and even less to get the no. 9 jersey itself.

Who did more to deserve a call up to the WC squad? Murray showed great form for Munster in the second-half of the season which culminated with him being the best player on the pitch -comprehensively outplaying Reddan - in the Magners final.