Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Grimebox

How is Richardt Strauss eligible to play for Ireland? He has played for the SA u19's and was born there. Sorry if this has been done to death

bamboozle

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

So you're saying that Kidney has been slow to drop proven internationals from the squad. If that's the case, Munster lads would always have been the ones to be given extra chances considering that they made up a majority of the squad. Kidney has definitely been slow to drop players and reward form players, but I don't subscribe to the fact that it's just because he is/they are from Munster. It's just how he operates.

you say slow to drop proven internationals i say players past their sell by date, difference being i park any provincial bias i have when considering the national team.

anyway i'll have to agree to differ with you as you are not going to change your views...you might however bear in mind that the vast majority of posters would agree that DK has been consistently biased towards players from a certain province.

Mr.Applepie

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Considering that Ruddock and Bent aside, Henderson has been/looks to be the quickest promotion to the Irish squad under Kidney's reign, I'd question whether Munster lads have it easier due to a perceived bias. After Henderson, you'd probably have Murray followed by Jackson. That's pretty evenly split if you look at the predicted outcome of the AIs.

Callups
Murray - The year he was called up he was 3rd choice behind Boss/Reddan. Currently 3rd behing Reddan/Marshall - could be 4th choice if Boss comes back well from injury.
Zebo - Gilroy was the better player last season - didn't get a look in. I don't have an issue with him being in the squad this year though.
Ryan - Was being named on the bench for Ireland when he couldn't get his game for Munster and never started a HCup game. I could be wrong on this but he was mainly playing 6 for Munster at the time too.
POM - A few good games for Munster and he's called in. SOB was european player of the year before he got a look in. Henry had to playing out of his skin to make the squad
Hurley & Archer - I don't think I need to say much about these
Ronan - Has been called into squads in the recent past - was Henry/Jennings injured at the time?
Jones - If reports are right was going to make the WC squad on a few half middling performances.
Kilcoyne - Serious doubts about his scrummaging but he gets into the squad after 3-4 games against poor teams. How many Heiniken Cup medals had Healy won before he was called up?

Players Being Kept
Hayes
Buckley
Horan
DOC
Leamy
ROG
TOL

I can't believe people are still arguing that Kidney has no bias.

Foxtrol

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Callups
Murray - The year he was called up he was 3rd choice behind Boss/Reddan. Currently 3rd behing Reddan/Marshall - could be 4th choice if Boss comes back well from injury.
Zebo - Gilroy was the better player last season - didn't get a look in. I don't have an issue with him being in the squad this year though.
Ryan - Was being named on the bench for Ireland when he couldn't get his game for Munster and never started a HCup game. I could be wrong on this but he was mainly playing 6 for Munster at the time too.
POM - A few good games for Munster and he's called in. SOB was european player of the year before he got a look in. Henry had to playing out of his skin to make the squad
Hurley & Archer - I don't think I need to say much about these
Ronan - Has been called into squads in the recent past - was Henry/Jennings injured at the time?
Jones - If reports are right was going to make the WC squad on a few half middling performances.
Kilcoyne - Serious doubts about his scrummaging but he gets into the squad after 3-4 games against poor teams. How many Heiniken Cup medals had Healy won before he was called up?

Players Being Kept
Hayes
Buckley
Horan
DOC
Leamy
ROG
TOL

I can't believe people are still arguing that Kidney has no bias.

Very good list but you can add to that Dowling getting caps ahead of more deserving options.

justsomebloke

Grimebox wrote: »

How is Richardt Strauss eligible to play for Ireland? He has played for the SA u19's and was born there. Sorry if this has been done to death

http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/upload/file/1287399004_gfirbregulation8_883.PDF

He has become eligible by being a resident here for 3 years. Playing u19's doesn't rule him out as only playing in the senior side, next senior side ('A' side here but in some countries it is the under 21's) or the 7 teams rules you out from switching

Cpt_Blackbeard

totallegend wrote: »

Ruddock got one cap after absolutely every other backrow option available was exhausted and was never selected again. Henderson, like Jackson, has yet to be actually picked.

Zebo, Murray, POM have all been fast-tracked into the side in the last 12 months. Jones would have gone to the RWC on the basis of very little had he not been injured.

While you can argue the case for each individual guy being there on his own merits, it's hard to deny the pattern.

Which is why I blatantly said that Henderson was the quickest call-up if you ignore Ruddock, who was called up because we were shorn of backrow options and to ensure that he would never play for Wales.

So if the players were there on merit, why does it matter what club they played for? Zebo was neck-and-neck with Gilroy/Kearney and this years form indicates Kidney backed the right horse.

Murray was rightfully involved in the Irish squad and was given a chance because of his form in training and cameos for Ireland. He was nailed down as a starter too soon, but he has deserved to be involved.

POM was called up because of numerous PRO12 and HEC MOTM appearances. He fully deserved to be included for the 6N and tour of NZ. He is undoubtedly our best bench option. Henry should have been ahead of him as a 7, but I've no real problem with the younger player with a higher potential being sided with when it is reasonably close.

Anyway, I've no desire to spend my day discussing this for the rest of my day. Posters continually criticise and underrate Munster lads in order to artificially inflate their arguments. Would Kiss, Feek and Smal just stand by if they felt Kidney was only giving chances to certain players?

bilston

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

geekington

Grimebox wrote: »

How is Richardt Strauss eligible to play for Ireland? He has played for the SA u19's and was born there. Sorry if this has been done to death

Under IFRU rules once somebody has been playing rugby in Ireland for 3 consectutive years and provided they haven't represented another country (or their nominated second team - "Baby Boks" U20s for SA) they are eligible to play for Ireland

Hagz

Anyone else have a really good feeling about these AI tests? I don't know why but I feel like we are going to see some really good rugby played by Ireland and I predict a 3/3.

Foxtrol

Hagz wrote: »

Anyone else have a really good feeling about these AI tests? I don't know why but I feel like we are going to see some really good rugby played by Ireland and I predict a 3/3.

Then Kidney to get a new contract prior to the 6 nations?? Great!!!! :rolleyes:

goreyguy

Hagz wrote: »

Anyone else have a really good feeling about these AI tests? I don't know why but I feel like we are going to see some really good rugby played by Ireland and I predict a 3/3.

lose to SA, beat fiji and barely get past Arg.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Very good list but you can add to that Dowling getting caps ahead of more deserving options.

Dowling got his two caps on 23 May, 2009 v Canada and on 31 May, 2009 v USA.

Does the date mean anything to you?

Lelantos

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Agreed. Zebo could well lose his place.

Although Penney has shown he's interested in Earls as a 13 and Earls doesn't want to play on the wing.

Zebo has the #11 jersey nailed down. It's going to be musical chairs for the 2 centre spots between Earls, Laulala & Downey. O guess Downey will lose out as the others have the versatility to play at both inside & outside centre

totallegend

bilston wrote: »

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

I don't think he does it deliberately or out of spite against Ulster.

He spent most of his coaching life at Munster with a lot of success. Then in his early days as national coach he had great success with a team that was populated (rightly) with a lot of Munster players. That has to impact on his outlook.

I think that he feels more comfortable with Munster guys and he just reverts to them out of habit. It's not pettiness, it's just his nature.

[NB; wild speculation of course, it's just a theory to fit the facts]

jacothelad

bilston wrote: »

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would question Kidney's honesty or honestly held views. It's just that his judgement is shockingly bad and clearly his experiences with Munster and it's players colours every waking thought he has. His pre and post match ramblings are simply a collection of non-sequitars mixed in with meaningless tripe. He is a terrible head coach, not necessarily one with deliberate bias...... you would like to think.

I mean, why would anyone question the leg up he gives to young players. Archer for example. If anyone needs help it's him. The fact that he played a load of old hand, once good, Munster players well past their sell by date when better alternatives were available or the fact that all you have to do, it seems as a Munster player to get in the wider squad, is be able to tie your own shoe laces might not mean he is biased. What it does mean is simply that he is well and truly crap at his job. It doesn't mean he has a bias. Still, if it looks like a pig, eats like a pig, smells and tastes like a pig chances are - it's a pig.

Podge_irl

bilston wrote: »

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

A coach doesn't have to wake up one morning and say 'Jaysus I think favouring all the Munster players would be a great idea. Who cares about Ireland, I just wanna give as many Munster lads caps as possible' in order to be biased. I have no doubt he makes his decisions in good faith, but he has displayed an inherent bias towards Munster players. There are many potential reasons for it, none of which I would think malicious. He may just have an inbuilt bias towards viewing certain players better than others - no different from any of us fans and not surprising given his long history with Munster.

Fireball07

Hagz wrote: »

Anyone else have a really good feeling about these AI tests? I don't know why but I feel like we are going to see some really good rugby played by Ireland and I predict a 3/3.

That's pretty optimistic.

I certainly think we're capable of it, we have the players and ability to beat all these teams. But we've always struggled to put together a few good performances in a row...so I don't know.

I could see a very impressive performance against SA but we end up losing in the last minute, a comfortable victory over Fiji, then an absolutely terrible game against Argentina, that we edge by a single score.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Dowling got his two caps on 23 May, 2009 v Canada and on 31 May, 2009 v USA.

Does the date mean anything to you?

Kidney was coach (as he was when Dowling was getting A caps also a head of more deserving players).

Podge_irl

Bastards. I had to write my response on a phone so it took longer.

Principal Skinner

bilston wrote: »

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

It's not a conscious decision. He just rates Munster players higher and their style of play higher than the other provinces. He obviously has greater respect for Munster than ulster or leinster. Why else would he dump leinster midseason to coach Munster (not that I'm complaining, would've been disastrous had he stayed with us)? And don't give me the to be close to his family answer, that was the reason he gave for moving to leinster in the first place.

Anyway the point is any Irish coach is going to have a certain level of sub conscious bias. It's unavoidable due to the provincial rivalry we have (which again is not a bad thing as some would have us believe)

Quint2010

bilston wrote: »

Hang on here a second, Kidney is loyal to some players but I don't think that makes him biased to one province or the other. He's a professional rugby coach, why would he deliberately go out of his way to make the job harder for himself by not picking what he viewed as his strongest team? I'm quite sure in his mind he is picking the best available to him. I may not and don not agree with some of his selections but I'm entirely content that he makes the calls in good faith.

I've no idea how much Declan Kidney earns but if he still has a mortgage and kids to get through college etc while making plans for his retirement I'd imagine the last thing he'll be wanting to do is to jeopardise his career by pursuing some petty provincial agenda.

The monumental error in dropping the Leinster half back combination for the Munster half back combination for the World Cup QF will haunt the man forever.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

I don't think he does it deliberately or out of spite against Ulster.

He spent most of his coaching life at Munster with a lot of success. Then in his early days as national coach he had great success with a team that was populated (rightly) with a lot of Munster players. That has to impact on his outlook.

I think that he feels more comfortable with Munster guys and he just reverts to them out of habit. It's not pettiness, it's just his nature.

[NB; wild speculation of course, it's just a theory to fit the facts]

Do you really think coaches like Feek, Smal & Kiss would stay involved if they thought the wrong players were being selected - after all their reputations are on the line as well.

who_me

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

I can't believe people are still arguing that Kidney has no bias.

When Kidney took over ('08) Munster were HEC champions, and were one of the top teams in Europe in '09... up until a certain game. So in this case, his "Munster bias" could simply be his tendency to be overly-loyal to the incumbent players - which he had even when Munster coach.

Hurley and Kilcoyne have been in great form this season, but I doubt either should or will make the team. If you're suggesting Zebo or O'Mahoney shouldn't be there you're way out on a limb..

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

Anyone else have a really good feeling about these AI tests? I don't know why but I feel like we are going to see some really good rugby played by Ireland and I predict a 3/3.

It's a bit early for the drink?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Podge_irl wrote: »

A coach doesn't have to wake up one morning and say 'Jaysus I think favouring all the Munster players would be a great idea. Who cares about Ireland, I just wanna give as many Munster lads caps as possible' in order to be biased. I have no doubt he makes his decisions in good faith, but he has displayed an inherent bias towards Munster players. There are many potential reasons for it, none of which I would think malicious. He may just have an inbuilt bias towards viewing certain players better than others - no different from any of us fans and not surprising given his long history with Munster.

Would his specialist coaches not call him out if they felt he was making the wrong decisions? I find it near impossible to believe that Kidney is running a EOS-like autocracy up in Carlton House.

.ak

Probably more down to the Blazers then the coaching staff imo.

Podge_irl

I'm sure they would, but they would do it in private and we'd never hear about it. Ultimately Kidney has the last say.

I'm also iffy on Gert 'Buckley could be the best TH in the world' Smal's selectoral abilities.

I find it difficult to really judge Kidney's character or how he would run a team as he is frustratingly vague and secretive.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Would his specialist coaches not call him out if they felt he was making the wrong decisions? I find it near impossible to believe that Kidney is running a EOS-like autocracy up in Carlton House.

If he suggested starting Archer in a test match I would think they would "call him out", but I can't see them doing the same over more marginal calls like Murray over Reddan or Zebo over Gilroy or DOC over Tuohy/McCarthy/Ryan (from last season), even if they weren't totally convinced. Then again, maybe they do?

Then again, it's a good question really. If so many of us on here are up in arms about some of his decisions, surely there must be some of his support staff who feel the same?

jm08

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Would his specialist coaches not call him out if they felt he was making the wrong decisions? I find it near impossible to believe that Kidney is running a EOS-like autocracy up in Carlton House.

You'd think Gert Smal would have taken the out option when he got the chance to coach South Africa after the world cup.

By the way, its Smal who is the DOC fan.

ssaye

.ak wrote: »

It's a bit early for the drink?

For me realistically, form, players absent etc
2/3

SA - Lose 1-10 points
Fiji - Win 20+ points Head/Head 3-0 149/31
Argentina - Win 1-15

C'Mon Ireland, start entertaining me again. 3/3 would be amazing.