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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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    #7262
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Who did more to deserve a call up to the WC squad? Murray showed great form for Munster in the second-half of the season which culminated with him being the best player on the pitch -comprehensively outplaying Reddan - in the Magners final.


    He only got into the squad because TOL was so absolutely dire (despite being persisted with by Kidney). The fact he started in the WC QF beggars belief. His form in an Irish jersey since then is extremely patchy.


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    #7263
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    He only got into the squad because TOL was so absolutely dire (despite being persisted with by Kidney). The fact he started in the WC QF beggars belief. His form in an Irish jersey since then is extremely patchy.

    But the question was who did more than him? Was it really the wrong selection?

    Just for the tour. Obviously his selection for the QF was seriously wrong.


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    #7264
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    He only got into the squad because TOL was so absolutely dire (despite being persisted with by Kidney). The fact he started in the WC QF beggars belief. His form in an Irish jersey since then is extremely patchy.

    Why - he had played about 30 mins against Australia and started against Italy for a comprehensive win before the QF, which is more than what happened in the 6Ns against Italy (a ROG drop goal to save our blushes).

    I can't recall Reddan at scrumhalf ever fairing well against a Welsh team.


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    #7265
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    jm08 wrote: »
    Why - he had played about 30 mins against Australia and started against Italy for a comprehensive win before the QF, which is more than what happened in the 6Ns against Italy (a ROG drop goal to save our blushes).

    I can't recall Reddan at scrumhalf ever fairing well against a Welsh team.

    In retrospect, starting ROG and Murray was definitely the wrong option, but it wasn't so clear at the time. Sexton was returning pathetic figures with the boot -~30/40% from what I remember - which considerably strengthened the calls for ROG to start. With ROG starting, it made sense to start his physical province partner.


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    #7266
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    jm08 wrote: »
    Why - he had played about 30 mins against Australia and started against Italy for a comprehensive win before the QF, which is more than what happened in the 6Ns against Italy (a ROG drop goal to save our blushes).

    I can't recall Reddan at scrumhalf ever fairing well against a Welsh team.

    The whole point is that Reddan should be our 9 because he suits Sexton's game better than Murray. DOC gets picked because he plays with POC so why isn't Reddan picked because he plays with Sexton?


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    #7267
    CoDy1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭CoDy1


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    He only got into the squad because TOL was so absolutely dire (despite being persisted with by Kidney). The fact he started in the WC QF beggars belief. His form in an Irish jersey since then is extremely patchy.

    I agree and disagree. Captians point is still valid though, Murray's form actually did warrant the call up. Thing is, he hasn't produced anything like he had shown, for Ireland.

    Edit: but in saying that, It is wrong that Reddan and Sexton haven't been given more time together in the national team.


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    #7268
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    With ROG starting, it made sense to start his physical province partner.

    So why doesn't it make sense now for Reddan to be starting with Sexton?


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    #7269
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    So why doesn't it make sense now for Reddan to be starting with Sexton?

    Murray's strengths help mask ROG's weaknesses, Sexton doesn't have the same weaknesses that need to be covered. With a fairly weak backrow against the direct and physical Saffers, it also makes sense to start Murray. Never mind that Murray is almost 10 years Reddan's junior.

    Were Reddan 5 years younger it would definitely make sense to start Reddan when we want to play high-tempo rugby. However, he isn't and it would make most sense to try and get Marshall up to Reddan's level.


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    #7270
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Murray's strengths help mask ROG's weaknesses, Sexton doesn't have the same weaknesses that need to be covered. With a fairly weak backrow against the direct and physical Saffers, it also makes sense to start Murray. Never mind that Murray is almost 10 years Reddan's junior.

    Were Reddan 5 years younger it would definitely make sense to start Reddan when we want to play high-tempo rugby. However, he isn't and it would make most sense to try and get Marshall up to Reddan's level.

    But what type of game are we trying to play? Leinster are at their best when Reddan is upping the tempo. And Sexton thrives on this. I just cannot understand why we play Murray at SH? Sexton doesnt need minding like ROG did so that lessens even more the arguement for playing Murray? Murray might well have a good game on Sat as they type of match it will be may suit him but I think he is playing patchily this year and Reddan on form has been playing better.


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    #7271
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    The whole point is that Reddan should be our 9 because he suits Sexton's game better than Murray. DOC gets picked because he plays with POC so why isn't Reddan picked because he plays with Sexton?

    Reddan has a habit of conceeding a stupid try every time he plays for Ireland. He started against SA last time with Sexton and Ireland lost (and he was responsible SA's first try).


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    #7272
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    This is hilarious. Boss and Reddan played consistently throughout the 10/11 season and did well. They were part of the HEC winning side. Both were well used to playing with Sexton and had international experience. That Murray was selected for the biggest game in 8 years (it's fair to say a RWC QF would be the biggest, maybe the Wales game in 09 was bigger) after a couple of good games for Munster ahead of these 2 is just simply wrong. Gilroy did far more last season to deserve a call up for NZ than Murray did for the call up to the RWC. If Murray can start a RWC QF then Gilroy should have toured in NZ. And that some people here can't or won't acknowledge that speaks volumes...


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    #7273
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    jm08 wrote: »
    Reddan has a habit of conceeding a stupid try every time he plays for Ireland. He started against SA last time with Sexton and Ireland lost (and he was responsible SA's first try).

    Yeah cant think of any stage where Murray has made an error which affected a game :rolleyes:


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    #7274
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    But what type of game are we trying to play? Leinster are at their best when Reddan is upping the tempo. And Sexton thrives on this. I just cannot understand why we play Murray at SH? Sexton doesnt need minding like ROG did so that lessens even more the arguement for playing Murray? Murray might well have a good game on Sat as they type of match it will be may suit him but I think he is playing patchily this year and Reddan on form has been playing better.

    The tempo is upped about 20% already for international rugby from HCup. International defences are much faster and more physical, so Reddan isn't going to be able to up the tempo much more at international level. Reddan does not fare well against big physical teams when playing for Leinster (Clermont) where Schmidt has generally started Boss when available and pretty much always when away from home.

    Interesting is that in the last game against SA, ROG & Stringer came on and the tempo was upped and Ireland scored a couple of trys. This is probably more due to the Boks tiring than anything else.

    There is a case for starting the more physical SH who is a better defender and then upping the tempo for the last quarter when the opposition are tiring.


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    #7275
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Foxtrol wrote: »

    Yeah cant think of any stage where Murray has made an error which affected a game :rolleyes:

    In fairness he has never made any errors in an Irish shirt as bad as Reddan has. Was it two intercepts against the Saffers a few years ago or just the one? Think he did the same against England by gifting Thompson a stroll-in in 2011 too. Kidney is understandably nervy about Reddan in an Irish shirt due to his cockups in the past.


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    #7276
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Yeah cant think of any stage where Murray has made an error which affected a game :rolleyes:

    Not as many as Reddan (when he should know better with his experience).


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    #7277
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    In fairness he has never made any errors in an Irish shirt as bad as Reddan has. Was it two intercepts against the Saffers a few years ago or just the one? Think he did the same against England by gifting Thompson a stroll-in in 2011 too. Kidney is understandably nervy about Reddan in an Irish shirt due to his cockups in the past.

    One intercept and one against England-the english match being arguably our best performance of the Kidney era-along with obviously the Australia match. Now who were the half back pairings in both those matches I wonder?..


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    #7278
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    molloyjh wrote: »
    This is hilarious. Boss and Reddan played consistently throughout the 10/11 season and did well. They were part of the HEC winning side. Both were well used to playing with Sexton and had international experience. That Murray was selected for the biggest game in 8 years (it's fair to say a RWC QF would be the biggest, maybe the Wales game in 09 was bigger) after a couple of good games for Munster ahead of these 2 is just simply wrong. Gilroy did far more last season to deserve a call up for NZ than Murray did for the call up to the RWC. If Murray can start a RWC QF then Gilroy should have toured in NZ. And that some people here can't or won't acknowledge that speaks volumes...

    No they'll pick one trait a Munster player has to explain why he was/is selected but will then say the exact opposite when trying to explain away why a different Munster player was selected:

    - Murray/DOC should be selected with ROG/POC due to their existing partnerships but not Redden/Sexton.

    - Murray should be picked ahead of Redden due to his longterm viability but Jackson should be behind ROG due to his inexperience.

    - Murray should be selected due to his physicality (not really key for a SH) but it should be ignored that POM is less physical than other backrow options (a trait that is much more important in a backrow).

    - Zebo was picked ahead of Kearney/Gilroy due to his strike rate but Dowling should have been picked ahead of Carr because he is more solid.

    - POM was selected for the 6 nations due to his MOM performances but it was ok to ignore SOB for Leamy during the AIs in 2010 despite him picking up several MOMs in the lead up.

    - It was ok for DOC/Ryan to be benching for Ireland when the other was starting with POC but Gilroy/Madigan cant get near the Irish team because they arent starters for their provinces.

    It would be great if the apologists could stop trying to have it whatever way suits their argument at the time and then quickly forgetting it.


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    #7279
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,907 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    jm08 wrote: »
    Reddan has a habit of conceeding a stupid try every time he plays for Ireland. He started against SA last time with Sexton and Ireland lost (and he was responsible SA's first try).

    My God, I didn't realise Reddan had conceded 45 stupid tries. One a game, eh? Even when no try has been scored against Ireland. He's some operator.


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    #7280
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    No they'll pick one trait a Munster player has to explain why he was/is selected but will then say the exact opposite when trying to explain away why a different Munster player was selected:
    - Murray/DOC should be selected with ROG/POC due to their existing partnerships but not Redden/Sexton.

    I wouldn't claim that. Reddan is not selected because a) he lacks physicality, b) he can be a bit flahulack with the ball (not looking where he is throwing it) and c) he is not as good defender as either O'Leary or Murray. Peter Stringer is a very intelligent SH with a great pass, but he lost his place for all of these reasons.
    - Murray should be picked ahead of Redden due to his longterm viability but Jackson should be behind ROG due to his inexperience.
    Murray should be picked ahead of Reddan so that he can develop a partnership with Sexton, gain international experience so that when it comes to introduce Jackson (or anyone else), the halfbacks won't be totally clueless. Its seen as a big plus for Jackson that he gets to play alongside a very experienced SH like Ruan Pienaar. The next step up to international level won't be so easy with an inexperienced SH.
    - Murray should be selected due to his physicality (not really key for a SH) but it should be ignored that POM is less physical than other backrow options (a trait that is much more important in a backrow).

    It depends on the pack you have. Most the more physical backrows are injured or getting on.
    - Zebo was picked ahead of Kearney/Gilroy due to his strike rate but Dowling should have been picked ahead of Carr because he is more solid.

    Zebo was not picked ahead of Kearney for the 6Ns. He was having an op at the end of the season so was not available for the tour to NZ. Zebo seems to have a better all-round game than Gilroy (ever notice how good he is at reclaiming restarts for instance, not to mention his boot. I don't recall seeing how good Gilroy is in claiming high balls).
    - POM was selected for the 6 nations due to his MOM performances but it was ok to ignore SOB for Leamy during the AIs in 2010 despite him picking up several MOMs in the lead up.

    SOB was dropped to the bench by Leinster for the HCup games (for Jennings who came back from his suspension) in the weeks before the 6Ns in 2010. He did bench against Italy and then broke his leg (I think) playing the Scarlets (20 Feb) and was out for the rest of the season for Leinster.

    He played 80 mins against Samoa in the AIs (alongside Leamy), so how was he ignored? Leamy played 36 mins more rugby than he did in those AIs - big deal.
    - It was ok for DOC/Ryan to be benching for Ireland when the other was starting with POC but Gilroy/Madigan cant get near the Irish team because they arent starters for their provinces.

    Ryan got into the Irish team by being able to cover 6 & lock. Prior to the world cup he was starting at 6 for Munster, so he was a Munster starter. When he got his chance, he took it.

    Kidney wasn't allowed bring Madigan on the tour to NZ. Gilroy did get a chance as he started against the Ba-Baas, so its wrong to say they didn't get a chance.

    It would be great if the apologists could stop trying to have it whatever way suits their argument at the time and then quickly forgetting it.

    Just because you don't like the arguments doesn't mean they are not valid.


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    #7281
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    No they'll pick one trait a Munster player has to explain why he was/is selected but will then say the exact opposite when trying to explain away why a different Munster player was selected:

    - Murray/DOC should be selected with ROG/POC due to their existing partnerships but not Redden/Sexton.
    I don't think anyone has made the point that DOC should start because of his partnership with POC or Reddan and Sexton should be kept apart. Reddan should have gotten more of a shot in the last year.

    - Murray should be picked ahead of Redden due to his longterm viability but Jackson should be behind ROG due to his inexperience.
    Murray is an established player who has looked good for Ireland in the past. Jackson has looked poor when thrown in at the deep end for Ulster (HEC final). Easing him in for the Fiji game might be a smart decision as he is playing in an extremely important position in a callow backline. I'd love to see him come through with flying colours and I'd give Kidney recognition for making a big call if he benches ahead of ROG and his central contract.

    - Murray should be selected due to his physicality (not really key for a SH) but it should be ignored that POM is less physical than other backrow options (a trait that is much more important in a backrow).
    Who is POM less physical than? Certainly not Kevin "Military -Medium" McLoughlin. Henderson is a more physical player, but he should be eased into the starting team. Having him on the bench makes sense as 6 isn't such a pivotal position as to significantly affecting our game if he comes on early and plays poorly. Henderson is also by far the least proven player to get a shot under Kidney's coaching. If he were a Munster player there would be outrage.

    - Zebo was picked ahead of Kearney/Gilroy due to his strike rate but Dowling should have been picked ahead of Carr because he is more solid.
    Not selecting Carr proved to be the right decision, as did selecting Zebo. Zebo also ahd more to his game than just his strikerate, but it is just the easiest example to show how he was in flying form. Can you point to any better display by an Irish outside back in the last year than Zebo's against NH?

    - POM was selected for the 6 nations due to his MOM performances but it was ok to ignore SOB for Leamy during the AIs in 2010 despite him picking up several MOMs in the lead up.
    POM was brought in as a bench option ahead of nobody really after 2/3rds of a great season at 6/7/8. SOB missed out to Jennings and an established international in Leamy for the first 6N match. He then became a mainstay in the team.

    He was gradually introduced to the Irish squad in at AIs by starting the Samoa match at 7 - he wasn't selected for the SA game - after a couple great Leinster performances at the start of the season, but he didn't impress. He lost out to Munster captain Leamy for the rest of the series. It proved to be the wrong decision, but it wasn't absurd at the time.

    - It was ok for DOC/Ryan to be benching for Ireland when the other was starting with POC but Gilroy/Madigan cant get near the Irish team because they arent starters for their provinces.
    The Irish management were slow to drop DOC when he was falling behind Ryan in the Munster pecking order. Posters here wanted Locky to travel as a lock and as backrow cover ahead of Ryan for the RWC. The same posters jumped at the opportunity of Thorn because they wouldn't want Locky to actually start lock for Leinster; just for Ireland ahead of a Munster player. That gives some insight to the level of impartiality at play.

    Gilroy isn't getting a shot at Ulster and Zebo is starting games and looking great at Munster. Gilroy can't get ahead of his other competitors for the Irish jersey at his province. Apparently Kidney wanted Madigan to tour to NZ and he definitely should have. Madigan is now rightfully behind Jackson in the pecking order.

    It would be great if the apologists could stop trying to have it whatever way suits their argument at the time and then quickly forgetting it.

    Just my take on your points. Most of them are pretty easy to solve when you realise that two wrongs don't make a right and you actually think about the situation. Just because Kidney has made mistakes in the past doesn't mean he should keep making them just because it causes your favourites to lose out.


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    #7282
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    jacothelad wrote: »
    My God, I didn't realise Reddan had conceded 45 stupid tries. One a game, eh? Even when no try has been scored against Ireland. He's some operator.

    Poetic licence Jaco!

    I just re-read the minute-by-minute account of the QF against Australia. Reddan gets 3 mentions in the one I read - each of them was for turning over ball. No wonder Kidney took him off so early.


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    #7283
    Rover Random
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭Rover Random


    Jesus, I've been coming on here now for a good few years and seen my fair share of ****e but this is the first time I've felt compelled to reply. Kidney has had some **** ups, he has also had some great achievements. We all agree on this. A reoccurring complaint on this forum over the past 4 years has been his inability to try something different, now that he has, the bitching has gotten bloody worse. There is no pleasing some of ye. If this is the team to play the Boks then I applaud the man. Get behind the ****ing team for once will ye.


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    #7284
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    I'm noticing some posters saying Jackson is lucky to play with a very experienced scrum half and that he won't have it so easy at test level because the scrum half isn't as good...Jackson has played with Pienaar once this season from the start. But yes he will find it harder not having Marshall with him so whoever is saying that you're spot on....


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    #7285
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,731 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There's so much mudslinging going on that this thread is really depressing :(

    mudslingling-3.gif


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    #7286
    vkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭vkid


    Rover Random wrote: »
    Jesus, I've been coming on here now for a good few years and seen my fair share of ****e but this is the first time I've felt compelled to reply. Kidney has had some **** ups, he has also had some great achievements. We all agree on this. A reoccurring complaint on this forum over the past 4 years has been his inability to try something different, now that he has, the bitching has gotten bloody worse. There is no pleasing some of ye. If this is the team to play the Boks then I applaud the man. Get behind the ****ing team for once will ye.

    100% agree. Its like a broken record in here.

    People won't be happy until Kidney does exactly what they want him to do....and some just want him gone..no matter what he does. I don't care if he goes or stays..because I don't think a new boss will make THAT much of a difference tbh...but 'I've stated why before so not becoming part of that broken record.


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    #7287
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Going back to the actual match, Declan Kidney has confirmed Gerry Thornley is speculating that Zebo is going to be named at FB tomorrow.

    Alright, if that's the call, then I'm optimistic he'll do a good job there. I'd imagine the Boks will pick up on this as a possible weak link in the side so let's hope for a dry day to make things easier under the high ball.


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    #7288
    jamiedav2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,906 ✭✭✭jamiedav2011


    brinty wrote: »
    Ok I'm gonna picka hole in that....

    Murray..who else was there..Boss, wasn;t starting for leinster...TOL and Stringer were behind CM at Munster..Marshall was barely playing at Ulster..Only Reddan was ahead and he started v Oz and was outperformed by Murray!!!

    I'm not going to reply to too many of the thousands of posts here last night, but I think this needs to be challenged.

    Some posters have this hugely over inflated vision of how Murray and ROG performed in that game, and there's absolutely no truth to it tbh.


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    #7289
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,748 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Ok so away from the provinical debate (of which i've probably played my part) was anyone else surprised to learn that David Skrela will make up one third of our back three on Saturday?

    That's what JP Pietersen thinks anyway...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1107/1224326236074.html


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    #7290
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    bilston wrote: »
    I'm noticing some posters saying Jackson is lucky to play with a very experienced scrum half and that he won't have it so easy at test level because the scrum half isn't as good...Jackson has played with Pienaar once this season from the start. But yes he will find it harder not having Marshall with him so whoever is saying that you're spot on....
    Murray should be picked ahead of Reddan so that he can develop a partnership with Sexton, gain international experience so that when it comes to introduce Jackson (or anyone else), the halfbacks won't be totally clueless. Its seen as a big plus for Jackson that he gets to play alongside a very experienced SH like Ruan Pienaar. The next step up to international level won't be so easy with an inexperienced SH.

    Marshall is still very inexperienced. No mention by me about standard of scrumhalf.


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    #7291
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    Marshall is still very inexperienced. No mention by me about standard of scrumhalf.

    You didn't understand what he said. Jacksons best form has come playing outside Marshall. You said it's seen as a plus that he gets to play outside Pienaar because of his experience (he's only played outside him once this season... A couple of times in his career) and then you say Marshall is inexperienced. It's nonsense.

    Who is saying he has had the benefit of playing outside Pienaar, and where?


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