Saorview Content Speculation

Capt'n Midnight

Elmo wrote: »

In relation to TV audiences in Ireland.

some stats on reception methods in their sample
http://www.tamireland.ie/tv/universes (to 22/10/2012)

Aerial 48% , 27% have DTT, (14% have Irish DTT only - 0% have UK DTT !)
UPC 23% other cable 1%
SKY 49%
Other Satellite 12%
PVR 49%


Intersting that 48% figure for aerials
and that only 14% don't watch foreign TV
and that the vast majority pay to watch foreign TV

Capt'n Midnight

Top Programs by channel
http://www.tamireland.ie/tv/top-programmes

Irish programs
For RTE1, TG4, RTE+1, Irish programs are 8 of the top 10 including the top 3

even RTE 2 which was setup to show UK stuff doesn't rely on imports for it's top programs

So people do watch Irish programs even though most viewers pay to watch foreign TV. It could be argued that TV3/3e represent part of this watching of foreign TV.

And that has to be taken into account when considering what will be on saorview in the future.

Does anyone have operating costs for a second MUX ?
Assume that it would only be on the main transmitters, like the way they do in the North.

If the costs of Saorsat are €1.5m then a second transponder would probably cost near enough the same. Again for MUX 2 it would be optional.

STB

Nothing much changes in viewing habits. Despite the availability of Sky Atlantics and Daves of this world, they dont feature on a National or Multichannel basis in viewing habits. The top 9 channels are and remain free to air. The 2012 figures are not available yet. Lets see how they compare with 2011 which is below.



Source Nielsen (via Medialive)

What is interesting is that Tv3 only overtook UTV in the ratings in 2003/2004. UTV's channel share % has dropped by 1 each year since.

ftakeith

icdg wrote: »

Back on topic or the thread will be closed. If people really want to discuss TV3 they can do it in Broadcasting or Television.

will saorview's bandwidth be increased like the uk freeview's service to have 20-30 tv channels

freeview in a few years will have 18 hd tv channels as per article in what's satellite magazine I read in easons today

watty

Maybe in 4 to 6 years we will have 7 HD:
RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4, RTEjr/RTE+, Oireachtas, RTE news

We are a small country. Plenty of countries our size don't have as many channels.

ftakeith

watty wrote: »

Maybe in 4 to 6 years we will have 7 HD:
RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4, RTEjr/RTE+, Oireachtas, RTE news

We are a small country. Plenty of countries our size don't have as many channels.

can we get bbc1 northern ireland, bbc2 northern ireland on saorview as part of the good friday agreement like northern ireland got for rte1, rte2, tg4 on freeview

STB

ftakeith wrote: »

can we get bbc1 northern ireland, bbc2 northern ireland on saorview as part of the good friday agreement like northern ireland got for rte1, rte2, tg4 on freeview

The question really should be - "Will we".

No is the short answer. The long answer for this is that RTE dont really want it (it would certainly dilute their viewing figures which in turn affects advertising rate demand). BBCs NI are and have been available free to air on satellite for quite some time in Ireland. The BBC dont want it as it would cost them money for basic carriage. Forget politicians. RTE's arent available on any commercial satellite FTA in NI.

The Cush

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Does anyone have operating costs for a second MUX ?
Assume that it would only be on the main transmitters, like the way they do in the North.

If the costs of Saorsat are €1.5m then a second transponder would probably cost near enough the same. Again for MUX 2 it would be optional.

Not only do we not know the costs for the future second mux we also don't know the tarrif for the existing first mux other than the information Elmo posted last year prior to the launch of Saorview in late May 2011. The only official DTT mux tariff information published by RTÉNL goes back to early 2008. A Dept of Communication DTT Mux tariff consultation is currently underway.

The second mux, as a PSB Mux, will be available from all transmitters as will a possible third PSB mux if required. Mux2 will probably carry some of the existing channels now carried on Mux1. All transmitters in NI carry the 3 PSB muxes with the 3 commercial muxes only carried on the 3 main transmitters.

The Cush

ftakeith wrote: »

will saorview's bandwidth be increased like the uk freeview's service to have 20-30 tv channels

freeview in a few years will have 18 hd tv channels as per article in what's satellite magazine I read in easons today

The bandwidth (extra muxes) are available, up to 8 if required, lack of content is the problem.

The Cush

ftakeith wrote: »

can we get bbc1 northern ireland, bbc2 northern ireland on saorview as part of the good friday agreement like northern ireland got for rte1, rte2, tg4 on freeview

The BBC aren't interested in providing its channels on Saorview and there is no requirement for them to do so in the MoU - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70850163.

Sam Russell

It would appear to me that a mux costs the same as 1 analogue channel to broadcast plus the cost of the network ammortised over 15 years. (These figures are just guesses). Obviously two muxes bearing the capital cost would be cheaper per SD channel than if it was carried by just one mux. Say for two muxes, we have €4m per mux or €450k per SD channel. If TV3 went HD and 3E was SD, this should cost them €1.8m per year. If they stayed SD, it would be €0.9m. That is less than the charge for analogue for one channel.

The most obvious division of the muxes is to give mux1 to RTE and mux2 to the rest.

watty

ftakeith wrote: »

can we get bbc1 northern ireland, bbc2 northern ireland on saorview as part of the good friday agreement like northern ireland got for rte1, rte2, tg4 on freeview

BBC Charter forbids them to pay the Cost. A third party would have to pay distribution, transmission and Rights. So very unlikely to ever happen on FTA. Pay DTT can do it (and would have to), but pay DTT in Ireland isn't viable. It will go bust if it ever launches. You hear me BAI?

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

The most obvious division of the muxes is to give mux1 to RTE and mux2 to the rest.

Don't see why you would need to split the muxes the way you say as both muxes are already licensed to RTÉNL who will place the channels in muxes to ensure efficient use of capacity. No reason that I can see to allocate the RTÉ channels to one mux and the others to the second as the 2 muxes will be available nationwide and the mux tariff will be based on actual capacity usage no matter which mux a particular channel is on. The end user, the viewer, won't know or care which mux a particular channel is on.

khumbu

The Cush wrote: »

Don't see why you would need to split the muxes the way

RTE Mheg5 stream would need to be duplicated on second mux if all RTE channels were not on one mux.

The Cush

khumbu wrote: »

RTE Mheg5 stream would need to be duplicated on second mux if all RTE channels were not on one mux.

Good point, a saving of 1Mbps out of a 24.1Mbps mux.

Elmo

Dave and GOLD have just start selling advertising in Ireland in the last year. They both get around 0.5%, plus all the other UKTV channels. There is definitely an opportunity to provide an Irish alternative to these channels. Sky Atlantic is only new and the last time I saw they have 0.3% of the audience, Sky One has 1.2%.

Saorview channels should be must carry channels on other platforms.

More 4 will provide opt-out advertising in the new year.

TAM only provide details on channels providing opt-out advertising to the Irish Market. (BBC 1 and 2 are the exception). I have tried on several occasions to get details on other channels, they are top secret!

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

Saorview channels should be must carry channels on other platforms.

Saorview should be 'must list' in the RTE Guide.

RTE do not take Saorview seriously in any way. They continuously talked about ASO as the launch of digital TV during the close-down of analogue and all the new digital channels that we were getting.

They have been mentioning RTE News Now on occasion, but do not take the unique Saorview channels seriously at RTE Jr is still a simulcast on RTE 2 HD. RTE News is simulcast on RTE NN. I would think not many of the RTE staff actualy watch Saorview, watching on PayTV instead. [Either UPC or Sky].

icdg

Its up to RTÉ really, there are no regulations requiring listings magazines to list any particular channels, even RTÉ One or Two. Some of us can still remember the bad old days (pre-1991) when to get "multi-channel" listings in advance you had to buy the RTÉ Guide (for RTÉ One and Two), Radio Times (for BBC One and Two) and TV Times (for ITV and Channel 4). An issue with promoting the Saorview channels for RTÉ is that every viewer of RTÉ News Now etc is a viewer taken away from RTÉ One/Two which are the channels they sell advertising on and are therefore the only channels the Sales department cares about.

You are right, RTÉ is based in Dublin where the "default" is still UPC. Practically every home in the city is cabled except for some new developments.

As well as everything Watty mentions above, the other major problem with providing the UK FTA channels is that Sky and UPC think that it is still their bread and butter and that if the UK channels became available FTA terrestrially they would go out of business. They have lobbied the Department heavily to that effect.

ftakeith

a@tg4.ie>
2:34 PM (4 hours ago)

to me

A chara
Fuair muid d'fhiosrúchán. We got your enquiry. Thanks for contacting us. Like all broadcasters, TG4 would wish to offer its HD oe autput on all delivery platforms. We are currently trialling HD on UPC cable and will also be discussing the HD options with the other platforms (Saorview and satellite providers) in due course. There are technicial and cost issues that also need to be addressed, of course.

Le meas

a long wait for tg4hd on saorview

Capt'n Midnight

Elmo wrote: »

TAM only provide details on channels providing opt-out advertising to the Irish Market. (BBC 1 and 2 are the exception). I have tried on several occasions to get details on other channels, they are top secret!

Do SKY / UPC have the details ? Freedom of information request ??


Or could you extrapolate from UK data ?

http://www.barb.co.uk/viewing/monthly-total-viewing-summary?_s=4 - Recent data




Piechart from 2008 but should be representative of the stuff that isn't covered by Irish Channels

watty

It shows that really unless Sky Sports is a "must have" that pay TV is a con, and that price to get Sky Sports (from a FTA base cost) is extremely high considering on average it will be less than 3% of viewing time.

Elmo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Do SKY / UPC have the details ? Freedom of information request ??

Not necessarily as UPC and Sky have very different EPGs. Though I gave a guess that UKTV have about 4%. And the availability of some UKTV channels on FreeView but not on FTA Satellite/FreeSat. (Also FreeSat I don't know what TAM do with FTA Satellite viewers of Channel 4 channels).

watty wrote: »

It shows that really unless Sky Sports is a "must have" that pay TV is a con, and that price to get Sky Sports (from a FTA base cost) is extremely high considering on average it will be less than 3% of viewing time.

Sky really don't care if they only 6% of the audience watch their channels when they have so many subscribers. Subscribers V Audience.

STB

Elmo wrote: »

Dave and GOLD have just start selling advertising in Ireland in the last year. They both get around 0.5%, plus all the other UKTV channels. There is definitely an opportunity to provide an Irish alternative to these channels. Sky Atlantic is only new and the last time I saw they have 0.3% of the audience, Sky One has 1.2%.

Saorview channels should be must carry channels on other platforms.

More 4 will provide opt-out advertising in the new year.

TAM only provide details on channels providing opt-out advertising to the Irish Market. (BBC 1 and 2 are the exception). I have tried on several occasions to get details on other channels, they are top secret!

The ability to sell advertising is directly connected to the number of people you reach across all platforms. Market Share of 1% means you do not come into the reckoning with advertisers as a result. The last time the call for content was advertised there were not many takers ? No?

Capt'n Midnight

Advitisers are also into channel reach http://www.barb.co.uk/viewing/quarterly-channel-reach?_s=4
which is the likely hood that you will watch a channel at some time

For the pay channels this might be another indication of whether it's worth it or not.


~50% of UK households have pay TV, vs. ~75% here
so either we like paying or we like the channels they can get in the UK free to air.

and that 50% figure means that SKY and UPC should be able to continue to operate here commercially even if the UK FTA channels were available here too.

Elmo

STB wrote: »

The ability to sell advertising is directly connected to the number of people you reach across all platforms. Market Share of 1% means you do not come into the reckoning with advertisers as a result. The last time the call for content was advertised there were not many takers ? No?

STB wrote: »

The ability to sell advertising is directly connected to the number of people you reach across all platforms. Market Share of 1% means you do not come into the reckoning with advertisers as a result. The last time the call for content was advertised there were not many takers ? No?

Really??? Why should UKTV launch opt-out advertising on 2 channels that barely get a 1% share together?

Reason being that there are two major platforms that have a duopoly and neither are too kind to new channels and its important to be on both. Channel 6 and Bubble Hits both found this out too late.

Channel 6 in relation to Sky and Bubble Hits in relation to UPC.

The main problem that Irish broadcasters have is their lack of cross over channels and cross over marketing. These channels don't need to be expensive but they do require some amount of imagination, even that doesn't have to be a requirement. Go back to before the extra BBC Channels and I doubt you will see growth because of them, no what ITV, BBC and Channel 4 got out of their extra channels was the ability to keep viewers and even then they have seen their audience drop particularly BBC and ITV.

BBC across 2 channels in 2001 had 39%, across 8 channels in 2011 32%
ITV in 2001 had 29% in 2001, across 5 channels in 2011 22%
Channel 4 had 10.5% in 2001, across 6 channels in 2011 11.3%
Channel 5 had 5.7% in 2001, across 3 channels in 2011 5.9%

http://www.beehivecity.com/television/a-decade-of-decline-bbc-one-bbc-two-itv-1-channel-4-five-98191/

Yes, they have seen undeniable TV viewing decline on their flagship channels in the past decade, but as they have built digital portfolios, the major broadcasters have managed to claw back a good deal of their viewers through additional digital channels. In fact, in some cases (Channel 4 and Channel 5) it appears that the digital age has in fact allowed growth for the brand in television viewing terms, and even for those that still report television viewing percentage losses overall (BBC and ITV) their move into the on demand markets has bolstered the amount of eyes watching their flagship programmes – it’s just they do it online rather than on TV.

STB

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For the pay channels this might be another indication of whether it's worth it or not.

~50% of UK households have pay TV, vs. ~75% here
so either we like paying or we like the channels they can get in the UK free to air.

and that 50% figure means that SKY and UPC should be able to continue to operate here commercially even if the UK FTA channels were available here too.

90% of people paying for subscription TV don't know that the 9 of the Top 10 channels that they watch each day are actually free.

Of the the remaining 10%, at least 3% heard about a combo box here when they wandered into the terrestrial forum. At least 50% of that 3% couldn't get out of the forum. Statistically thats a shocker.

watty

I think it's closer to 80%+ here have pay TV. 55% is regarded as Saturation!

UPC & Sky numbers can only go one way here, down. That's why UPC offers BB & phone & TV bundles and why Sky is now doing BB here by reselling at a loss to bundle.

Bundles are designed to lock you in. Hence the pay TV itself is still "packs" even though onscreen selection a la Carte is now possible (with minimum 1 month subscription to any channel).

But if you want Sky+ / UPC PVR functionality you need a Freesat HD PVR and a Saorview TV or Set box. Two box remotes and Freesat is better than any of the combos. You can get programmable remotes to have one.

Unfortunately we are unlikely to see a Freesat PVR with DTT for Saorview built in. Or even any Saorview + FTA Sat Combo that is a true PVR.

STB

Elmo wrote: »

Really???

Really. Lookup CPM.

Ireland Universe is tiny in comparison to the UK. So is the pie. Launching opt out adverts on a satellite service and paying/getting yourself on a state platform are 2 vastly different things!

Do not blame the PSB for being protective of its future. We certainly cannot afford to fund it any further!

The Cush

watty wrote: »

I think it's closer to 80%+ here have pay TV. 55% is regarded as Saturation!

Recent Dáil reply on this

Thursday, 8 November 2012

230. Deputy Noel Harrington
asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the number of households that subscribe to receive TV channels and the percentage this represents of households receiving television; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49166/12]

231. Deputy Noel Harrington
asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources the way Ireland compares with other EU countries in the numbers and percent who subscribe to receive TV channels to those who receive a free service; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49168/12]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): I propose to take Questions Nos. 230 and 231 together.

According to ComReg, “Irish Communications Market: Key Data Report – Q2 2012”, approximately 1.311 million of those Irish homes with television had some form of subscription television service, equating to approximately 82% of the market. In turn, approximately 12.6% of these households rely solely on the Irish terrestrial channels and a further 5.3% rely on a combination of the Irish terrestrial channels and one or more of the UK terrestrial channels. The situation across the EU is quite diverse and so a mean or average penetration of subscription television is of little practical use as a metric. The situation ranges from those countries with over 80% of television users on a subscription model (including Belgium, Denmark, Poland, Norway, the Netherlands Sweden and Hungary) to those countries with around half of the television households on subscription (Germany on 55%, the UK on 53%, Italy on 41% and France on 49%).

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2012110800061?opendocument&highlight=55%25#Broadcasting Services

Capt'n Midnight

Maybe Mux 2 will be T2 with it's extra 30% bandwidth, assuming they can find more channels to fill it.:pac: But seriously I can't see TV3 spending more on carriage, 3e in HD isn't likely anytime soon.


As to what else could be shown Top Up TV in the UK uses on demand to prerecord stuff for viewing to get around limited bandwidth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Up_TV - but as been pointed out time and time again anyone who wants pay tv already has it and any new entrant would likely to be strangled at birth by SKY/UPC if they looked successful (actually it could be said that perhaps as many as 1/3 of the people on pay tv would cancel tomorrow if they could get UK FTA channels easily)

Divis Mux - to show what could fit ~8 SD channels
http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=IJ287750

1 BBC One Northern Ireland, 2 BBC Two Northern Ireland, 7 BBC Three, 9 BBC Four, 70 CBBC Channel, 71 CBeebies, 80 BBC News, 81 BBC Parliament, 301 301,


3 UTV (UTV), 4 Channel 4 NI ads, 5 Channel 5 NI ads, 6 ITV 2, 13 Channel 4+1 NI ads, 14 More 4, 28 E4, 33 UTV+1 (UTV),


101 BBC One HD Northern Ireland, 102 BBC HD, 103 UTV HD (UTV), 104 Channel 4 HD NI ads,


10 ITV 3, 27 ITV 2 +1, 30 5*, 31 5USA, 38 Quest, 39 The Zone, 44 Channel 5 +1, 72 CITV,


11 PICK TV, 12 Dave, 17 Really, 25 Dave ja vu, 29 E4+1, 46 Challenge, 48 Food Network, 62 TV Stars, 82 Sky News, 87 Community Channel, 90 TV News


15 Film 4, 18 4Music, 19 Yesterday, 21 VIVA, 24 ITV 4, 47 4seven, 83 Al Jazeera English, 85 Russia Today English