Kevin Myers: "NRA makes idiotic decisions"

L1011

steph1 wrote: »

I am on the road from Mayo to Dublin very regularly. I usually travel via Longford as I am used to that particular route. If I leave Dublin after 10pm I would make sure I have enough fuel to last the journey. There is a 24 hour station on the Mullingar by-pass and after that there is one more 24 hour in Longford that only opened sometime late last year. And after that there is no petrol station opened from then until you hit either Castlebar or Ballina so anyone who is heading on further say to Westport or Belmullet would want to make sure they fill up.

A lot of these filling stations used to stay open till 11 or even midnight. But that was when the licensing laws allowed alcohol to be sold up until 11.30pm. And a lot of these service stations sold wine. Now because of the new 10pm closing - which I disagree with - a lot of these stations have decided that its not worth their while staying open and having to pay staff for this extra hour and a half with little or no business.

So by imposing this stupid rule on the off licences - and probably in an effort to entice people back into the pubs - which also seems to have fallen flat on its face - lots of people have either been cut hours or lost jobs.

Another thing I have noticed too is that there is very little traffic on the roads now at night - bar the trucks on their delivery runs. So there are a couple of reasons why its not going to pay the owner of a service station to stay open beyond 10pm at night.

The problem here is that even a widespread MSA rollout wouldn't help this journey, or one heading to the north-west, or the south-west (after a point) and I just don't think Ireland is big enough for the NRA to plan and legislate for trunk road services, especially as anyone can get planning to build accesses on to a national route as is.

marmurr1916

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Dude, they are located roughly every 25 miles in the UK, by the time you decide you need to pull over within 25 miles you are on top of it already....statistically speaking. We would not have the traffic volumes to justify such a high density of services mind!!!

Yes, but if you're absolutely knackered, and you need to pull over more or less immediately, an MSA 25 miles away is not much use to you. Far better to exit the motorway as soon as possible (assuming that the next exit is closer than the next MSA), park in a safe place and rest.

BTW folks we're using miles here because we're talking about British motorways!

You're right that Ireland wouldn't have the levels of traffic or population density to justify MSAs every 40km or so.

I think a 24 hour services area (with fuel, food, toilets and adequate parking) is required every 60km or so. It doesn't matter whether these services or online or off the motorway so long as the distance between them is no greater than 60km AND they're clearly signposted well in advance.

Sponge Bob

That is all I want too marmurr. 60km spacing with a few periodic laybys elsewhere OH! and orderly merging out of those laybys too.

runway16

You have to admire Mr Myers for one reason - he challenges the prevailing mood and attitude of the country, and thats no bad thing. Now, thats not to say he doesnt occasionally get it wrong, and i think he is wrong about the NRA on some points.

Calling this a useless quango is just crazy - the NRA is exactly what is needed in other spheres of public life - it is one central authority who plans for all matters in relation to the national road network, as opposed to having local authorities doing their own little patch in isolation to everything else, with no overall view.

The NRA has delivered the road projects on time and on budget in nearly all cases - once the government made the funds available. It isnt the NRA's fault that the original 2006 completion for the MIU's was missed: that was central government who didnt stump up the readies. Once the cash was there, the NRA delivered, and I think we should recognise that.

We also knock the NRA sometimes for poor junction design - but let's be honest, the NRA arent alone in that one. I've seen some pretty piss poor ones abroad too - and the reason generally is to save cash. They probably dont like it either, but they do have to live within budgets.

The MSA's are an issue - lets not pretend otherwise. In the mean time, until such time as they do get built, we need to lobby NRA for a solution, meaning greater signage for offline services convenient enough to the Motorways. You may have seen the new signs which have gone up in the last week on the N7 near Kill outbound, showing the distances along of offline services on the M7, M8 and M9. It's a start, so at least there is some recognition of the issue. And, it isnt just about safety - its a convenience issue too. But, and lets face it, we all know the real reason these werent planned along with the motorways - the usual having to sop to local interests who didnt want their petrol station, most of which were built since the MIU programme was announced, being bypassed.

Lastly - drainage. It is an issue on some of the newer stretches of Motorway, particularly those using the newer, noise reducing asphalt surface. It wasnt an issue on the older spec motorways. Hopefully, some notice can be taken of that issue and a solution found. I'd suggest e-mailing the NRA and letting them know directly. I know I will be.

So, in all, no, the NRA arent perfect. But as Quangos go, this is one I would keep. In 4 years we have gone from a disjointed network of roads with the od motorway bypass to having a proper motorway network. That deserves at least some congratulation.

Aidan1

The whole HQDC thing was, in my view, a way of getting these built quickly without drawing the Ire of the environmental lobby.

Close - more accurately, it was a way of getting them built without handing over vast amounts of money to farmers due to the statutorily higher prices paid for roads designated as 'Motorway' at the time. Quick change of the law, and the problem has since gone away. But back then it was a real issue. In short, the HQDC concept saved the State a huge amount of money.

From memory, the MSA issue arose out of planning concerns - or more pertinently, the decision not to build them from the outset was due to a perception that businesses in towns being by-passed would object less if they thought they'd still get some passing trade from the Motorways. And then the whole thing went skew ways when businesses asked about getting dedicated signage on the motorways, and ran into the NRA's (rightly) strict policy about avoiding clutter. Oops.

To be honest, having driven the old roads, and knowing where the best places to stop are, the lack of MSAs doesn't really bother me - there are some obvious places to get off and back on again fairly quickly. But I can see how it would bother some people.

Then again, hoping for a UK density of service in a country as sparsely populated as ours is kinda pointless.

BluntGuy

runway16 wrote: »

You have to admire Mr Myers for one reason - he challenges the prevailing mood and attitude of the country, and thats no bad thing. Now, thats not to say he doesnt occasionally get it wrong, and i think he is wrong about the NRA on some points.

I would agree with what you said bout the NRA being one of the better quangoes, but I think Myer's points were fairly on.

[off-topic]
It's impossible to "admire" him though. In his constant efforts to play devil's advocate, he may hit on some good points, but it generally just ends up being odious, smug-sounding crap, some of it nonsensical. Personally, I find his act to be rather tedious at this point. I'd love if we had more journalists genuinely challenging the prevailing mood, we need it. But not with vitriolic rubbish.
[/off-topic]

From memory, the MSA issue arose out of planning concerns - or more pertinently, the decision not to build them from the outset was due to a perception that businesses in towns being by-passed would object less if they thought they'd still get some passing trade from the Motorways.

The point is the NRA flapped around on this issue and couldn't make up their mind. They first decided we need some, then changed their mind, and then changed their mind back again. "Perception" shouldn't have had anything to do with it. They're a road authority, and their job is to give us the safest and most efficient network. Granted, I understand the issue about objections (the M6/M18 Rathmorrissey MSA was removed by ABP, though that may have been due to the fact it was just in a stupid place more than anything), but even after most of the schemes had gotten PP, they were still flapping around indecisively on the subject of MSAs.

I don't think it would've made too much of a difference, let us see how the M20 fares (which is planned to have an MSA from the off). I'm betting the number of objections will be comparable to any other scheme of its length.

runway16

BluntGuy wrote: »

[off-topic]
It's impossible to "admire" him though. In his constant efforts to play devil's advocate, he may hit on some good points, but it generally just ends up being odious, smug-sounding crap, some of it nonsensical. Personally, I find his act to be rather tedious at this point. I'd love if we had more journalists genuinely challenging the prevailing mood, we need it. But not with vitriolic rubbish.
[/off-topic]

Perhaps I phrased myself wrong. I value the fact that he challenges the prevaling mood, and challenges "Irishisms" but I think its the neo-colonial aspect that grates most people. Personally, I think the man is a grating, up himself, snobbish twat, but a twat who ocassionally hits the nail on the head. But, thats many journalists - an opinion on everything, but knowledge of nothing.

Anyway, back to the NRA. Is there any evdince to suggest that they do view these boards, or take on board any points made to them?

L1011

runway16 wrote: »

Anyway, back to the NRA. Is there any evdince to suggest that they do view these boards, or take on board any points made to them?

View - the time someone suggested a sign on the M2 be changed and it was, a day later, exactly as he suggested

Take on board - other than that, not much...

runway16

To be fair, I guess that is as much as you can ask for really. At least there is some form of interaction then, even if it is one way only.

A really inspired move would be for someone from the NRA to come on here and communicate directly. At least we could get answers to some questions, and then they could get their viewpoint across also.

I believe some companies do that, even here on boards.ie

Well, in fact, I know of at least one, as I used to work alongside the dude who answered people comments for our company on here! ;-)

L1011

The M50 PPP traffic management crowd interact here, thats a start at least...

Chris_5339762

One of those "No online services ahead" has appeared northbound on the M8 just after Dunkettle.

BluntGuy

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

One of those "No online services ahead" has appeared northbound on the M8 just after Dunkettle.

Yeah it's been there for a while. Says "offline services 40 km - 80 km - 120 km".

Prob is none of the off-line services they allude to are actually signed.

marmurr1916

BluntGuy wrote: »

Yeah it's been there for a while. Says "offline services 40 km - 80 km - 120 km".

Prob is none of the off-line services they allude to are actually signed.

Services at those intervals from the terminal point of a motorway, and with only 40km between each services, give a perfectly adequate level of provision.

However, they must be clearly signposted from/to the nearest motorway junctions.

I'm not overly hung-up on having online services, especially since it's clear that they're not going to be built for a while to come yet.

The pragmatic solution is to provide signposts, to an excellent standard, to existing service areas that are within easy driving distance (2km or less) from motorway exits.

There are route-confirmation signs after motorway junctions.

There should be signs near these, stating something like 'Next Services (off motorway) in xKM. Services (off motorway) at xxkm, xxkm'.

These signs should be placed after all motorway junctions, not just at or near the starting points of motorways.

The suggestion that services signposted from motorways also sign legally-enforceable minimum service standard contracts should also be followed up.

The services would gain customers from being signposted; in return they should agree to operate 24/7/365, with fuel, food and drinks (hot and cold), toilets and adequate parking being available on this basis.

spuddy

One thing I really don't understand, why do we need public money to pay for MSAs? Sure they have to provide some basic amenities, but at the end of the day, they will be commerical operations.

Plus, their operators will have an effective monopoly once open.
Isn't that motivation enough for a private operator to stump up the cash to pay for their complete construction?

Zoney

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Services at those intervals from the terminal point of a motorway, and with only 40km between each services, give a perfectly adequate level of provision.

Really? Even if they are just an ordinary shop/garage open only during regular hours and only able to accommodate a modest amount of traffic?

Surely you can fathom that there needs to be a clear minimum standard - and rather than somehow get existing offline services up to scratch, it makes more sense to have entirely new online services.

ForiegnNational

spuddy wrote: »

One thing I really don't understand, why do we need public money to pay for MSAs? Sure they have to provide some basic amenities, but at the end of the day, they will be commerical operations.

Plus, their operators will have an effective monopoly once open.
Isn't that motivation enough for a private operator to stump up the cash to pay for their complete construction?

I couldn't agree more. Why should the NRA do anything more than designate the density and if required, the specifications for the entrance/exit off of the motorway.

The rest can be entirely left to private finance to purchase the land, sort out the planning permission, build the slip roads and the Services.

I'm sure that MSA's are hugely profitable and that even given all of the overheads, companies would be falling over themselves to get a gaurenteed long term income (lets face it, the motorways will NEVER be bypassed!). Just look at the construction of the junction and services ongoing at Cashel for a model of this (which if I recall correctly was called gombeenism elsewhere in this forum!).

My only recommendation is that we force operators to adopt the French, rather than British model for Service Stations. UK = overpriced crap food (McDonalds/Burger King/etc), whereas in France you can get excellent food for the same or less than their UK equivalents.

None of the motorways are long enough to justify hotel operations, although places like Midway at Portlaoise, places in Athlone, etc, might sell themselves as convenient meeting points.

Aidan1

"Perception" shouldn't have had anything to do with it.

Ahh, the sweet invulnerability of 20:20 hindsight.

At that point in time (2000/2001) there was real opposition to the construction of the Motorway Network (remember CAST?), and there was recent experience of planning difficulties around building roads (Kildare, Glen of the Downs to name but two). The NRA had a huge number of applications stacked up for all of the Inter-Urban routes - essentially the road network that was completed in the 2006/10 period) and could not be even remotely certain of getting any of them through planning successfully. ABP had never been faced with that volume or scale of applications before, and there was no way of knowing what the outcome would be. The NRA were fighting battles on Archeology, on land prices (and on access), on route selection and on the price of construction. They took a decision that dedicated on-line service areas would add cost and planning risk, two things that were critical issues in terms of delivering their build out, and chose not to do it.

By the way, they didn't flip flop on the issue - in the end they were told to do this by Govt. They went with a State owned option to ensure size and diversity of service, and to preserve control of access to the Motorways (minor issue in Tipperary aside). The MSA option chosen, on the other hand, looks gold plated and over sized, particularly now. But had they gone smaller, I'm sure they would be accused of undersizing the thing.

Road-Hog

sesna wrote: »

Myers has a completely valid point.

Thats a horribly typically Irish attitude - ah sure its grand, we'll get by.

Royalty do not drive on motorways, its just typical motorists. It's ridiculous you have to leave the motorway and travel into a nearby town just to fill up with petrol. This adds at least 20 minutes to your journey. This is further compounded by the fact these networks cost billions in taxpayers money to fund, and are tolled.

I have driven a lot of the west coast USA freeway system and have never come across a MSA........you just get off at an exit that has a services sign on it and there are warnings if there is a long distance without services.......as someone mentioned above, as little as 5 years ago how did people manage......majority of small towns that were not bypassed had bugger all 'services' bar petrol pumps and as for food, very little either......has anyone ever heard about planning with respect to journeys.......if heading on a long trip say dublin cork, would you set out at 11pm with the fuel light flashing and on an empty stomach... I think not...!

Road-Hog

cfarrell1980 wrote: »

... and it what motorists expect - particularly foreign motorists. I can remember driving from Dublin airport down to Limerick with a rental car, assuming that I'd be able to pull in somewhere on the motorway for petrol. Bad assumption...

Maybe if the gov. could make some money out of the whole services thing by licensing land they have already acquired by compulsory order for building the motorway (or acquiring more) to the private sector, so that they could build service stations...

Surely the rental car had a full tank when you collected it????? or were you taking some strange roundabout route to Limerick

sdanseo

I love Kevin Myers. He's so tongue in cheek that even when he's wrong he makes you laugh.

On this ocassion, he's made some very decent points. I don't have much experience of the N7/M7 but I do know that the last time I was on it with 2 other lads in their own cars heading down to Cork, when one ran dry of water there wasn't even a sign indicating fuel OFF the motorway, let alone on it. MSAs cant come soon enough!

D'Peoples Voice

I must admit that I thought a lot of the MSAs in Italy and France, Spain not really, nor the UK.
They are a great idea, but given the size of the country, I'm not sure its that necessary to have that many of them!
I think the idea of signposting certain garages in towns that meet certain standards is a great idea - as we all know that service stations in quiet parts of the motorway network are prone to attack by criminals!

Sesna, I was reluctant to answer you before because I really didn't want to take this thread off topic. However I just want to very quickly answer you .

sesna wrote:

Myers is very correct in using distances the majority of drivers in the country are accustomed to (everyone who drove pre 2005).

Since the 1970s, we in the ROI have operated a dual system, the Government accepted that they simply could not afford to replace all signs overnight, but any new sign erected since the early 1970s would have to be denominated in kilometres - hence old signs could remain in miles until they were replaced.(we did the similar with reusable containers can be in imperial such as pint glasses, but bottles must be in metric, so a pint bottle of Bulmers is 500ml not 585ml or whatever) Hence depending on where you lived, the signs could be denominated in either. But all urban areas would have seen their signs replaced as road layouts changed.

ForiegnNational wrote:

c) Have you ever used MPG when discussing the fuel economy of your car?

You are spot on here, this is one of the few good things that the EU did for consumers - forcing companies to declare the amount of litres of fuel consumed to travel 100kms.
I know that if fuel is circa EUR 1 a litre,
my car burns 4 litres per 100km
and I drive 15,000kms a year,

then my annual fuel cost is EUR 1 * 4 litres * (15,000/100)kms
as 15,000/100 = 150
then = EUR 4 * 150 = EUR 600

if I drive 30,000 kms its 4 * 300 = EUR1,200

Calculating the cost with miles when purchasing a car is a lot more difficult which is why many car dealers PURPOSELY don't quote you the litres per 100km, because they know you won't even try to calculate the actual cost - hence you won't really know the true efficiency of a car to you in monetary terms!

marmurr1916

Zoney wrote: »

Really? Even if they are just an ordinary shop/garage open only during regular hours and only able to accommodate a modest amount of traffic?

Surely you can fathom that there needs to be a clear minimum standard - and rather than somehow get existing offline services up to scratch, it makes more sense to have entirely new online services.

I did say that they should have to meet minimum standards. I don't think it particularly makes more sense to build new online services if existing offline services can be brought up to an acceptable standard.

I don't see what's wrong with offline services provided they're within 2km of the motorway.

marmurr1916

Road-Hog wrote: »

I have driven a lot of the west coast USA freeway system and have never come across a MSA........you just get off at an exit that has a services sign on it and there are warnings if there is a long distance without services.......as someone mentioned above, as little as 5 years ago how did people manage......majority of small towns that were not bypassed had bugger all 'services' bar petrol pumps and as for food, very little either......has anyone ever heard about planning with respect to journeys.......if heading on a long trip say dublin cork, would you set out at 11pm with the fuel light flashing and on an empty stomach... I think not...!

Dublin Cork is only a long trip by Irish standards. By most international standards it's a short hop. At most it would probably take about 3.5 hours from city centre to city centre, allowing for moderate congestion.

Pete_Cavan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I did say that they should have to meet minimum standards. I don't think it particularly makes more sense to build new online services if existing offline services can be brought up to an acceptable standard.

I don't see what's wrong with offline services provided they're within 2km of the motorway.

It would be very difficult to find existing service stations that meet all the criteria to allow them to be upgraded to provide adequate services off the motorways. These service stations would have to be large enough, or have adjacent land to allow it to be extended, to provide adequate parking for cars and HGVs, and allow for construction of all necessary facilities including shops, restraunts, fuel facilities, toilets and showers. The road the service station is located on would also have to allow for safe entry/exit from the service station for higher levels of traffic and HGVs. And of course the service station would have to be located within 2km of the motorway and be located in an area along the motorway that is far enough from the start/end of the motorway and far enough from other such services. Dont think there are many existing service stations that meet all the criteria.

The easiest solution is to build all new service stations to relevant standards online in the most appropriate location. Going down the PPP route ensures all aspects, including on/off ramps to the motorway and the MSA itself meet minimum standards. Once the current PPP contracts expire the cost of the MSA will have been paid off and new contracts for operating the MSAs will be very valuable and provide a great source of income for the government.

This thread started with an article from Kevin Myers where he questions the competency of the NRA because of the poor drainage on the N7 south of Dublin which was upgraded in recent years. To try to upgrade existing service stations to provide services for motorways would be to learn nothing from past mistakes and would be accepting inadequacy when we can start from scratch and do it right. If we settled for less and upgraded existing service stations we would be complaining we didnt build proper MSAs first time when we had the chance. MSAs should be built, end of!

Paparazzo

kippy wrote: »

Myers has many points there but I have to laugh when people like Myers slam the NRA and others in this country who have "road flooded" or "prone to ice" conditions up in a dry spell/warm weather.
These guys have obviously never been in the US (and other countries) where road liable to ice signs are permanent fixtures on many roads all year round.
Thats not such a bit deal in my opinion.

But aren't the irish signs those temporary ones that light up? They rent them from plant hire companies at great cost. Probably one that a governement ministers brother/cousin/son owns.
The worst ones are the ones that change showing a few different messages. So you have to keep staring at the sign to see the whole message

L1011

Road-Hog wrote: »

.if heading on a long trip say dublin cork, would you set out at 11pm with the fuel light flashing and on an empty stomach... I think not...!

If you've just landed in on the night boat on the assurance that "fuel's cheaper in Ireland" (which it is for both countries you can get the boat from) with a near empty tank you can be rightly screwed

There's a 24hr Topaz with an 18 (I think)hr restaurant in Dublin Port, but nothing of the kind in Rosslare, dunno about Cork.

Dun Laoighaire has 24hr fuel nearby but not easy to find (although I don't think it has any late boats these days...

coolperson05

The easiest thing is offline services. The NRA applies for applicants that ALREADY HAVE service stations near a motorway exit in the centre of the MIU's. One per route (maybe 2 on Dub-Cork) would suffice.
Also the cities should have one on the way out of the city, eg. in Waterford there is NO petrol station left across the bridge or on the quay where all traffic for Rosslare, Cork, Dublin and Limerick are signposted to go! So you can't even fill up before you go!
The NRA can then give them an approved status, a couple of brown signs on the motorway and then off it to the station. And they have to be open 24hours and have some kind of deli facility and toilets. Hotels or showers and such aren't feasible, especially seems the longest journey will only be 3 - 3.5 hours on the M8/M7. 8-9 around the country would be perfect. And then one at each port and each major airport. DONE!

L1011

coolperson05 wrote: »

, eg. in Waterford there is NO petrol station left across the bridge or on the quay where all traffic for Rosslare, Cork, Dublin and Limerick are signposted to go! So you can't even fill up before you go!

The little, um, Texaco? at Newrath closed down since the M9 opened? Filled up there only in January... its not AT the roundabout but its *visible* from it.

coolperson05

That road is now closed while the Mullinvat road is being re surfaced. And i think it has closed anyway before the M9, they possibly saw no point in staying open?!

JohnC.

That part of the road isn't closed. I get fuel there most of the time, though when I went there last week, the pumps were taped in place, so maybe they are closing/closed now.