Kevin Myers: "NRA makes idiotic decisions"

Amtmann

PERHAPS the greatest contribution that Ireland has made to the practice of the dysfunctional democracy is the first cousin of the Quango (the quasi-autonomous, non-government organisation). It is the DUPFA: the Democratically Unaccountable Publicly Financed Autonomy. The first DUPFA was created when Sean Lemass nationalised two institutions that Fianna Fail hated -- the traditionally unionist Great Southern Railways and William Martin Murphy's Dublin Tramway Company. Thus was born the great national haemorrhage that we know as CIE. For decades, this DUPFA bled taxpayers' money in many, many insane ways, until its conduct became so outrageous that finally the Torpid Denizens of Leinster House were obliged to wake up to its delinquencies.

Other DUPFAs have recently come to the attention of our TDs, most famously FAS, and some level of accountability imposed. But one DUPFA remains autonomous, inept and bizarrely hubristic, as it continues to heap bad decision upon idiotic ones: the National Roads Authority (NRA).

A small stretch of the N7 south from Dublin near Kill illustrates pretty well how the NRA works. The upgrade of the road to near-motorway standards was completed in recent years. This means that even with merely moderate rainfall, so poorly constructed are the camber and the drainage that water puddles dangerously on the road. This has obliged the NRA to place flashing flood-warning signs; and naturally, these continued to warn of imminent floods throughout one of the longest droughts in recent times. But that is the Irish way: the "Beware, Ice" signs that are erected in January are usually still warning of Arctic conditions the following September.

On Sunday, the rains came, and the water formed in pools across the N7; I encountered three multi-car crashes within a couple of miles, all apparently caused by cars aquaplaning on lakes on newly constructed, badly drained roads. And on the slip road into Kill there is another sign of the heroic works and visions of the great DUPFA that is the NRA: an oasis of food, fuel and toilets.

Actually, the Topaz service station at Kill is not a proper motorway service station: it merely functions as one, though traffic heading north has no easy access to it, and traffic heading south has to leave the N7 completely to enter it. But at least it is visible from the N7. No other petrol station is visible for the 140 miles or so to Cork or Limerick.

The station is too small to have a proper lorry park, but it has toilets and a restaurant, so drivers park their lorries on the slip road into Kill, often causing congestion and visibility problems, and so considerably increasing the hazards to all road users. But lorry drivers legally have to stop. Yet throughout the entire network of roads that the NRA has constructed, there are no service stations -- no toilets, no fuel and no proper lorry parks.

So the roads from the Border to Galway, Limerick or Cork, involving journeys of some 250 miles or more, are without services of any kind. You have to leave the motorway system completely if you want refreshment or a toilet break or fuel. Needless to say, finding an off-motorway petrol station usually requires an intimate knowledge of the area because, though there might (just possibly) be signs on the motorway that petrol is available at the next exit, no further signs will then guide you to your destination. And, of course, these are old-fashioned petrol stations, not motorway service areas, and so there are no lorry parks with well-maintained toilets or even showers (as one finds in mainland Europe).

THE wizards of the NRA have apparently constructed small lorry parking bays near Urlingford and Mitchellstown, but these don't even have litter bins, and so are festooned with rubbish. The drivers then have to re-enter the M8 without proper slip-roads to ease their admission. A major collision is, therefore, sooner or later inevitable.

We were the last country in western Europe to build a modern national road network. So why did the NRA apparently learn almost NOTHING from the autobahn, autostrada, autoroute and motorway construction programmes of other countries? The NRA even began building motorways without median crash barriers, until the inevitable head-on collision obliged them to retrofit them (at huge extra cost) to the motorways it had just completed. Fifty years ago, Paddy in Britain was building one mile of motorway, complete with service stations, every eight days. Half a century on, that kind of achievement is apparently well beyond Paddy in Ireland.

We have taken two decades to construct motorways connecting Galway, Limerick, Dublin and Belfast, and without a single proper service station. Who knows which of these newly built roads is prone to puddling and aquaplaning, as the N7 is near Kill? And how many motorists have run out of fuel, not merely because there were no service stations on the motorways, but also because the almost impossible-to-find off-motorway service stations had closed at night?

But the most mysterious feature about the abysmal dysfunctionalism of the NRA is not the extraordinary hubris it exhibits (a characteristic of all DUPFAs: witness FAS), but the mute docility of the taxpayers in the face of such extravagant and grotesque ineptitude.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-nra-continues-to-heap-bad-decisions-upon-idiotic-ones-2211174.html

MidlandsM

Some good valid points it has to be said.

jpfahy

Have to completely agree with him

invinciblePRSTV

Myers is such a whinging women in his columns with his mad abbreviations, but i bet a lot of the C&T and Infrastructure regulars love him! (lot of indo readers on here judging by some of the reactionary posts)

As for the columns main points, in 2005 we just wanted motorways to be built, rightly or wrongly MSAs were a secondary concern. And what are the NRA supposed to do about the N7, a complete rebuild? the logistics involved aren't worth it, people should just slow down like they are supposed to when it rains.

Typewriter

He's right you know.

There at least should be off-line directional signs to off-line services.

Sponge Bob

I don't completely agree with him, that road is over 40 years old and is only upgradeable to a point given all the uncontrolled building off it. The service station is part of that uncontrolled development.

Myers would have been the first to howl if a proper D3 OFFLINE Motorway had been constructed instead of widening the N7 10 years ago.

We have done the lack of services to death around here. It is a health and safety issue to my mind....motorways are very boring to drive on and there is no excuse not to have services at max 70 mile intervals and realistically at 50 mile intervals....for health and safety.

veryangryman

Seriously Myers (and those who agree with him) grow a pair...

"So the roads from the Border to Galway, Limerick or Cork, involving journeys of some 250 miles or more, are without services of any kind. You have to leave the motorway system completely if you want refreshment or a toilet break or fuel. Needless to say, finding an off-motorway petrol station usually requires an intimate knowledge of the area because, though there might (just possibly) be signs on the motorway that petrol is available at the next exit, no further signs will then guide you to your destination. And, of course, these are old-fashioned petrol stations, not motorway service areas, and so there are no lorry parks with well-maintained toilets or even showers (as one finds in mainland Europe)."


What do people who are driving long distance non-Motorway journeys do in these cases? Youd swear its royalty that drive the Motorways.

Sure they could be better - but they could be a hell of alot worse. Longest Motorway journey possible in the state is currently a 3.5 hour Dunkettle to Cloghogue Roundabout sprint. If you need to stop, you have the choice of...

1) Portlaoise N77 junction
2) Rathcoole Service Stations
3) Dodge any of the 3 tolls and pick up something in those towns

And that excludes just getting offline for a mile or so at most junctions.

I like Myers but i fear that it may have been a slow news day when he wrote that article and he felt he had to maintain his level of disdain for things.

I for one, like the motorways - they kick ass

Sponge Bob

The NRA can just as easily designate and sign services that are offline, they need but publish a "service mark" and invite stations to participate until services are built.

If the stations agree to provide 24 hour fuel/coffee then designate them and signpost to them off the motorway. When the proper services are built withdraw the "service mark" based designations for at least 25 miles in every direction and resign to the real services.

How ****ing complicated is that ??

Amtmann

veryangryman wrote: »

Seriously Myers (and those who agree with him) grow a pair...

"So the roads from the Border to Galway, Limerick or Cork, involving journeys of some 250 miles or more, are without services of any kind. You have to leave the motorway system completely if you want refreshment or a toilet break or fuel. Needless to say, finding an off-motorway petrol station usually requires an intimate knowledge of the area because, though there might (just possibly) be signs on the motorway that petrol is available at the next exit, no further signs will then guide you to your destination. And, of course, these are old-fashioned petrol stations, not motorway service areas, and so there are no lorry parks with well-maintained toilets or even showers (as one finds in mainland Europe)."


What do people who are driving long distance non-Motorway journeys do in these cases? Youd swear its royalty that drive the Motorways.

Sure they could be better - but they could be a hell of alot worse. Longest Motorway journey possible in the state is currently a 3.5 hour Dunkettle to Cloghogue Roundabout sprint. If you need to stop, you have the choice of...

1) Portlaoise N77 junction
2) Rathcoole Service Stations
3) Dodge any of the 3 tolls and pick up something in those towns

And that excludes just getting offline for a mile or so at most junctions.

I like Myers but i fear that it may have been a slow news day when he wrote that article and he felt he had to maintain his level of disdain for things.

I for one, like the motorways - they kick ass

Veryangryman, Kevin Myers is right to complain about this. In fact he's the only media figure to have done so at all, which is perhaps why the NRA got away with the sheer stupidity of not building MSAs for so long. It isn't wrong at all to say that it was gross stupidity on the NRA's part to not provide online services. Why isn't it wrong to say that? Because it's true.

We on this forum know the motorway system inside out and upside down. But we are unrepresentative of the motoring public. When a motorway opens, many people are geographically confused: they haven't a clue of where the old road is, they don't know on which side the motorway bypasses the old towns, and they don't know what new R route numbers represent on blue motorway signage when the signage on the old downgraded road hasn't been replaced. I almost ran out of petrol on the M8 near the Watergrasshill exit - and guess what: no petrol in that village. I had to go to Glanmire on fumes. And I know the M8. I haven't a clue about the M1, M3, M6 or M9. It's ridiculous that we don't have services. As BluntGuy said in another thread, this country is pathologically opposed to excellence, and consistently sneers at those who demand it. The "ah sure 'twill do" attitude is a cancer in Irish public life and it must be eradicated.

Amtmann

I would just like to add something about the supposed familiarity that people have with the Midway service area at Portlaoise. Until last year I had never heard of it. Ever. A friend of mine near Naas had never heard of it either until I told him about it. I've met quite a few people who've never heard of it in fact. And anyway, can you get food and fuel there at 1 in the morning? And seriously, where is Rathcoole? I'm unfamiliar with it.

We need online MSAs now. It will take a fatality or two before these are fast-tracked once more. Keep your eyes on the RTE website for road fatalities. Sadly, they are inevitable, and sadly, they probably will involve one of the parking bays, a lorry, and small car with a family inside.

sesna

veryangryman wrote: »

Seriously Myers (and those who agree with him) grow a pair...
What do people who are driving long distance non-Motorway journeys do in these cases? Youd swear its royalty that drive the Motorways.

Myers has a completely valid point.

Thats a horribly typically Irish attitude - ah sure its grand, we'll get by.

Royalty do not drive on motorways, its just typical motorists. It's ridiculous you have to leave the motorway and travel into a nearby town just to fill up with petrol. This adds at least 20 minutes to your journey. This is further compounded by the fact these networks cost billions in taxpayers money to fund, and are tolled.

MidlandsM

Furet wrote: »

I would just like to add something about the supposed familiarity that people have with the Midway service area at Portlaoise. Until last year I had never heard of it. Ever. A friend of mine near Naas had never heard of it either until I told him about it. I've met quite a few people who've never heard of it in fact. And anyway, can you get food and fuel there at 1 in the morning?

No, they don't do food @ 1am.
Think it closes at 10pm or so - can anyone clarify?
The midway is open 3 or 4 years now, its got a Pizza Joint (closed recently to re open under new managment in the coming weeks alledgedly), O'Briens Sandwiches, Subway (does the most business), a chipper and a place called Tapenade healthy bistro. There's toilets there too etc and plenty of parking.
It's joined to the Maldron Hotel (formerly the Comfort)
which also have a restaurant for food.

Re; Fuel, there is NO service station there - plans were lodged but i heard they were recently refused.
There is a EMO filling station in about another 1/4 mile in the road to Portlaoise - think it closes round 10pm.

mike65

veryangrymans post is the embodyment of failure in this country. Why bother aiming for the stars when you can have the bogland.

tinkerbell

I totally agree with Kevin Myers, the N7 is always such a mess after it has rained. They only made it 3 lanes a few years ago, why couldn't they have put proper drainage down? I mean tiz a pretty obvious thing to do - we get so much rain so they should plan for it! It's the same with parts of the new M50 around Dundrum / Firhouse, no proper drainage there either.

cfarrell1980

... and it what motorists expect - particularly foreign motorists. I can remember driving from Dublin airport down to Limerick with a rental car, assuming that I'd be able to pull in somewhere on the motorway for petrol. Bad assumption...

Maybe if the gov. could make some money out of the whole services thing by licensing land they have already acquired by compulsory order for building the motorway (or acquiring more) to the private sector, so that they could build service stations...

NedNew2

Kevin Myers is nothing but an old quaint goat (Kevin still uses miles for Gods sake... it's 2010 now Kevin, not 1910).

Anyway to be fair the N7 is very dangerous around City West. My windscreen was rendered useless for a couple of seconds once due to spray from the road by a lorry in front.

As far as I can see the problem exists for about a kilometre around CityWest and then again at Kill.

It is a serious problem that needs to be fixed.

paulm17781

NedNew2 wrote: »

Kevin Myers is nothing but an old quaint goat

I agree, in fact, I strongly dislike his articles. It doesn't make this one any less correct though.

"Ah sure it'll do" is the worst element of this country.

D'Peoples Voice

Furet wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-nra-continues-to-heap-bad-decisions-upon-idiotic-ones-2211174.html

stopped reading after he kept referring to the British measurement of miles. You can take the man out of the bog, but you'll never take the bog out of the man.

ForiegnNational

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If the stations agree to provide 24 hour fuel/coffee then designate them and signpost to them off the motorway. When the proper services are built withdraw the "service mark" based designations for at least 25 miles in every direction and resign to the real services.

MidlandsM wrote: »

Re; Fuel, there is NO service station there - plans were lodged but i heard they were recently refused.
There is a EMO filling station in about another 1/4 mile in the road to Portlaoise - think it closes round 10pm.

Is it only me that see's the madness of a motorway network without MSA's and which the "alternative" of local services close at 10pm?

I hope that capitalism wins the day and companies go ahead and provide "on junction" alternatives. Councils and legislative bodies should be forced to allow these developments to go ahead in order to comply with legal requirements regarding driver fatigue.

kippy

Myers has many points there but I have to laugh when people like Myers slam the NRA and others in this country who have "road flooded" or "prone to ice" conditions up in a dry spell/warm weather.
These guys have obviously never been in the US (and other countries) where road liable to ice signs are permanent fixtures on many roads all year round.
Thats not such a bit deal in my opinion.

Vladidim

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

stopped reading after he kept referring to the British measurement of miles. You can take the man out of the bog, but you'll never take the bog out of the man.

I couldn't agree more, given that everyone in this country grew up using miles. Many countries, including the US still use miles, yet Kevin Myers gets the whole west brit thing thrown at him again in a useless inane comment.

Sponge Bob

Not just you FN. People will die because of the lack of MSAs. Acceptable alternatives to MSA's exist and need to be signposted seeing as the cash is not there to build proper ones.

It is an interim solution, a 'service mark' scheme sets a basic minimum that is available 24 hours a day and 365 days a year. Kilmartins in Athlone already meets such a standard from what I can see and if 'Hogans' in Galway will sign up that is really all we need + the Enfield MSA that is being built.

I cannot comment on the other routes but I am sure there are large service stations within 3 or 4km of each and every one of them that would willingly sign up for the 'service mark' scheme and deliver it. There was another excellent service station at the east end of Ballinasloe, a 4km round trip from Ballinasloe East junction come to think of it and possibly one around Kilbeggan.

ForiegnNational

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

kept referring to the British measurement of miles

To be fair, he's not the only one, miles are still very much in use in society, even if we on Infrastructure are all decimally correct...

a) Do you make a Kilometerage Claim or a Mileage Claim when commuting on behalf of work?
b) Do you say "miles-and-miles" or "Kilometers-and-Kilometers"?
c) Have you ever used MPG when discussing the fuel economy of your car?
d) Have you heard of the "4 minute mile" or the "4 minute 1.609344 Kilometers"

Personally I think a little less of the Kilometer fascism when dealing with people is required on the boards in general. Just my opinion...

Amtmann

Miles vs kilometres is off topic, but in all seriousness, to suggest that Myers's use of the former rather than the latter vitiates his column and renders it not worth reading is nonsensical.

veryangryman

mike65 wrote: »

veryangrymans post is the embodyment of failure in this country. Why bother aiming for the stars when you can have the bogland.

Fair enough - people entitled to their opinions.

I still have yet to hear one person tell me what does a person driving from Donegal to Portlaoise at 1am do for fuel? Your still going to get driver fatigue, people running out of petrol etc etc etc

My point is that a Motorway is just a glorified road. This isnt about "not striving for excellence" - ask any UK commuter and theyll tell you that service stations are

1) Filthy
2) Overpriced
3) Badly run
4) In some cases (South Mimms for one) drug-dealer meeting points

All im saying is, we dont need them. If your travelling a far distance, you (like the Donegal-Portlaoise traveller with no motorway to call his own) should do your research for where your going to stop. Tell me why he doesnt get a 24 hour service station and someone who happens to be on the IU mainline does.

Amtmann

veryangryman wrote: »

Fair enough - people entitled to their opinions.

I still have yet to hear one person tell me what does a person driving from Donegal to Portlaoise at 1am do for fuel? Your still going to get driver fatigue, people running out of petrol etc etc etc

My point is that a Motorway is just a glorified road. This isnt about "not striving for excellence" - ask any UK commuter and theyll tell you that service stations are

1) Filthy
2) Overpriced
3) Badly run
4) In some cases (South Mimms for one) drug-dealer meeting points

All im saying is, we dont need them. If your travelling a far distance, you (like the Donegal-Portlaoise traveller with no motorway to call his own) should do your research for where your going to stop. Tell me why he doesnt get a 24 hour service station and someone who happens to be on the IU mainline does.

No. If you're driving from Donegal to Portlaoise you know that the route will take you through towns. One of the principle purposes of motorways is to avoid towns, to take you past them at speed. The case for MSAs is multi-faceted; but the most important considerations are safety and reliability. Lack of MSAs detracts from the level of service provided by the motorway. An MSA on an interurban motorway is integral to the overall road. It is not an optional extra: it's part and parcel of motorways, and no 'research' beyond looking at a road atlas should be necessary for the prospective traveller. It is not comparing like with like to compare the M8 or the M6 with an old single-carriageway route from Donegal to Portlaoise.

veryangryman

Furet wrote: »

No. If you're driving from Donegal to Portlaoise you know that the route will take you through towns. One of the principle purposes of motorways is to avoid towns, to take you past them at speed. The case for MSAs is multi-faceted; but the most important considerations are safety and reliability. Lack of MSAs detracts from the level of service provided by the motorway. An MSA on an interurban motorway is integral to the overall road. It is not an optional extra: it's part and parcel of motorways, and no 'research' beyond looking at a road atlas should be necessary for the prospective traveller. It is not comparing like with like to compare the M8 or the M6 with an old single-carriageway route from Donegal to Portlaoise.

I'll have to respectfully disagree Furet. I guess that your overall point is that the IU Motorway serves the majority and as such should have the services. The guy from Donegal is unfortunate to not be on the mainline for his journey and should not have 24/7 petrol station access.

Personally, i think that Ireland is too small to need them outside of perhaps the Cork-Belfast journey. I can happily drive Athlone to Cork (half the journey on Motorway) in 2.5 hours without needing a break. And yes there are people with worse bladders than me/empty fuel tanks etc. I think an offline alternative would suit them - in this case i would agree with better signposting. Perhaps i am biased living in the centre of the country where no journey really exceeds 3 hours or so

But online services...Nah. Sorry im not for turning on this. I dont see how the services will make our Motorways any more "excellent". SOS phones would be much higher on my wishlist

Amtmann

veryangryman wrote: »

I'll have to respectfully disagree Furet. I guess that your overall point is that the IU Motorway serves the majority and as such should have the services. The guy from Donegal is unfortunate to not be on the mainline for his journey and should not have 24/7 petrol station access.

Personally, i think that Ireland is too small to need them outside of perhaps the Cork-Belfast journey. I can happily drive Athlone to Cork (half the journey on Motorway) in 2.5 hours without needing a break. And yes there are people with worse bladders than me/empty fuel tanks etc. I think an offline alternative would suit them - in this case i would agree with better signposting. Perhaps i am biased living in the centre of the country where no journey really exceeds 3 hours or so

But online services...Nah. Sorry im not for turning on this. I dont see how the services will make our Motorways any more "excellent". SOS phones would be much higher on my wishlist

That's grand veryangryman, I'm not a fella who will argue until the cows come home like many do on the internet. I accept your view but I am convinced you are wrong. And I think that once the MSAs are built, they will be quite busy in the medium to longterm.

Sponge Bob

veryangryman wrote: »

Perhaps i am biased living in the centre of the country where no journey really exceeds 3 hours or so

Bahh , what about Dingle - Dublin or Dundalk - Schull or Galway-Rosslare .

Add in an elderly weak bladder and a couple of screechy sprogs and 22c outside.

funnyname

This is bigger joke than no service stations!

THE wizards of the NRA have apparently constructed small lorry parking bays near Urlingford and Mitchellstown, .... The drivers then have to re-enter the M8 without proper slip-roads to ease their admission. A major collision is, therefore, sooner or later inevitable.

Zoney

Most damning is the complete failure to pay attention to lessons learned already elsewhere (and not very complex lessons either) and the crash barriers is a very good illustration of this, nevermind the issue of MSAs. Not mentioned are various other issues like the "dodgy gantries" (a costly "learning experience" that shouldn't have been necessary in the journey to our present decent-enough gantry signs) and the needless nonsense of "high quality dual carriageway" that kept our national infrastructure tally low (not entirely irrelevant) and also cost yet more money (changing all those signs, repainting road markings).

However, where Myers goes wrong is focussing on the NRA rather than those ultimately responsible. The same mistake made by far too many people, it lets the government off the hook when people blame the HSE, local councils, semi-states, etc. All the public is doing is re-enforcing this situation, as the government can quite rightly see that from their perspective, things are working perfectly - as they aren't being blamed, someone else is. If the government were held responsible, then the modus operandi of aspects of the state would have more chance of being changed.

And finally we can go further than just government and blame the party that has been in power most of the time and responsible for the vast majority of stupid decisions, quick-fixes, populism and mismanagement.

cantalach

Just on the drainage point...

I'm sure there are exceptions, and the section of the N7 to which Myers refers may well be one such exception, but my understanding is that what lies behind most of the flooding we see on roads in this country is not poor design and/or construction but rather poor maintenance. During the Autumn, it is vital that drains are checked for leaf accumulation and cleared if necessary. Is the NRA responsible for the maintenance of the motorways or is it the relevant local authority or toll concessionaire?

BluntGuy

It pains me to agree with Myers, because I normally can't stand the reactionary rubbish he writes in his column.

But this is an issue that needs to be highlighted before it's too late. I'm as proud as anyone of the emerging network, but it's four years later than promised, there's no integrated traffic management, sporadic rollout of phones, laybys without so much as a bin (I give him kudos for pointing this out), the obvious lack of MSAs, old routes resigned either poorly or not at all in many cases, PPP toll deals where the private sector doesn't actually take any risk, dubious D&B contracts (M50, M8 C-M). Then there's the whole fiasco with fibre-optic cables not being laid with the motorways, though this more a failure of Eamon Ryan, than the NRA I admit. Then there's the fiasco with 2+1 roads. The list goes on.

There's a whole bunch of problems and mistakes that were made that the government and NRA want and expect us to overlook, just because they're getting stretches of motorway open. I hope some slightly less odious journalists cover this topic in the future. I would hate to see lives lost due to NRA incompetence.

Chris_5339762

IMO the M11 Enniscorthy part of the PPPs should be scrapped for now (build New Ross as its own PPP) and the money to be spent on the land acquisition spent on land acquisition for all the MSAs. Then, put the MSAs out to private companies, telling them what to build. Then tell them to give say 10 - 15% of their profits back to the NRA/government.

Something like that anyway.

Empire o de Sun

ForiegnNational wrote: »

To be fair, he's not the only one, miles are still very much in use in society, even if we on Infrastructure are all decimally correct...

a) Do you make a Kilometerage Claim or a Mileage Claim when commuting on behalf of work?
b) Do you say "miles-and-miles" or "Kilometers-and-Kilometers"?
c) Have you ever used MPG when discussing the fuel economy of your car?
d) Have you heard of the "4 minute mile" or the "4 minute 1.609344 Kilometers"

Personally I think a little less of the Kilometer fascism when dealing with people is required on the boards in general. Just my opinion...

You'd say "Kilometres", in other english speaking metric countries you say kilometres, e.g. The car rental has unlimited kilometres.

miles and miles is an expression that will not go away, just mean a long way away. Like other expressions "mind you ps and qs"

litres per 100 km is the correct way to do it. And easy to get used to.

4 minute mile? only people from countries that use the (imperial) mile would care about doing it in 4 minutes. So that statement doesn't stand.

marmurr1916

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not just you FN. People will die because of the lack of MSAs.

If your claim is that people will die due to tiredness then consider this: nobody should drive in a condition where they're so tired that driving an extra few kilometres to the nearest motorway exit (or online layby) is dangerous. If you're that tired you shouldn't be driving at all, let alone on a motorway.

Let's say you're on a British motorway and you're utterly knackered. Do you drive to the next services (let's say it's 25 miles away) or do you exit at the next junction (let's say it's 10 miles away)? If you're that tired you should do neither, although the lesser of two evils is to drive to the next junction, exit the motorway and pull over to rest.

Put it this way - if you're absolutely exhausted you shouldn't be driving in the first place. If you are so tired that you need a rest, the safest thing to do is to pull over in the nearest safe place it's possible for you to rest. That isn't necessarily going to be an MSA even if you're on a British motorway.

An MSA is only the best place to rest if it's the nearest safe place to rest. If it's not the nearest safe place, then what good is it?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Acceptable alternatives to MSA's exist and need to be signposted seeing as the cash is not there to build proper ones.

It is an interim solution, a 'service mark' scheme sets a basic minimum that is available 24 hours a day and 365 days a year. Kilmartins in Athlone already meets such a standard from what I can see and if 'Hogans' in Galway will sign up that is really all we need + the Enfield MSA that is being built.

I cannot comment on the other routes but I am sure there are large service stations within 3 or 4km of each and every one of them that would willingly sign up for the 'service mark' scheme and deliver it. There was another excellent service station at the east end of Ballinasloe, a 4km round trip from Ballinasloe East junction come to think of it and possibly one around Kilbeggan.

A perfectly sensible suggestion. Get lobbying TDs, councillors and the NRA if you want it implemented.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Let's say you're on a British motorway and you're utterly knackered. Do you drive to the next services (let's say it's 25 miles away) or do you exit at the next junction (let's say it's 10 miles away)?

Dude, they are located roughly every 25 miles in the UK, by the time you decide you need to pull over within 25 miles you are on top of it already....statistically speaking. We would not have the traffic volumes to justify such a high density of services mind!!!

Empire o de Sun

I think that a system of Parking only rest areas and full service rest areas is the best option.

I'd do it every 20 km ish or so and have a full rest area every third one.

20 km Parking
40 km Parking
60 km Full Rest area

And it should be a proper offline parking area with toilets. Not this little lay-by that is on the hard shoulder.

Each rest area should be placed in charge of maintenance of Parking rest areas as part of their operating concession.

L1011

Vladidim wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, given that everyone in this country grew up using miles.

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344. Must have been a good article if thats the only fault with it :rolleyes:

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344. Must have been a good article if thats the only fault with it :rolleyes:

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

cantalach

sesna wrote: »

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344.

The metric system has been taught in Irish primary schools for over 30 years and kilometres have been appearing on Irish road signs for almost as long. Despite this, you still regard those of us who use it as 'progressive'? With that mindset, it's no wonder changing anything takes so long in this country.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

MYOB wrote: »

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

About the ultimate bog response ? Oh, I'd stick by that too.

cantalach

MYOB wrote: »

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

Saw that. I'm still wondering what exactly a "bog response" is. Perhaps this is one?

sesna

cantalach wrote: »

The metric system has been taught in Irish primary schools for over 30 years and kilometres have been appearing on Irish road signs for almost as long. Despite this, you still regard those of us who use it as 'progressive'? With that mindset, it's no wonder changing anything takes so long in this country.

Really? We actually officially changed to metric for speed limits and speedometers only in 2005. Given that we are talking about road usage, the only aspect of the metric system used in Ireland until 2005 was km on some road signs - alot of road signs posted in miles .

So to sum up official speed limits (as designated in Road Traffic Act) in mph, speedometers in all cars in mph, and distances on road signs in mph.

And hint "progressive" was used tongue in cheek. Miles as a unit of measurement was actually the norm except on a few green road signs on newer roads.

sesna

cantalach wrote: »

Saw that. I'm still wondering what exactly a "bog response" is. Perhaps this is one?

The unnecessary use of the word now, commonly used as such in bog dialect.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Really? We actually officially changed to metric for speed limits and speedometers only in 2005. Given that we are talking about road usage, the only aspect of the metric system used in Ireland until 2005 was km on some road signs - alot of road signs posted in miles .

So to sum up official speed limits (as designated in Road Traffic Act) in mph, speedometers in all cars in mph, and distances on road signs in mph.

And hint "progressive" was used tongue in cheek. Miles as a unit of measurement was actually the norm except on a few green road signs on newer roads.

I wouldn't call every road sign erected for about 30 years, including a comprehensive renumbering of the entire road network 'a few'. Every road sign on every national route was in KM a long time before speed limits were converted over.

Take in to account that the N and R roads were never signed as such using miles and you'll see how blatantly wrong your "few green signs" claim.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I wouldn't call every road sign erected for about 30 years, including a comprehensive renumbering of the entire road network 'a few'. Every road sign on every national route was in KM a long time before speed limits were converted over.

Take in to account that the N and R roads were never signed as such using miles and you'll see how blatantly wrong your "few green signs" claim.

The vast majority of the Irish road network are older secondary and tertiary roads. Distance signs were white with distances posted in miles.

Also I see you conveniently ignored that the most crucial variables drivers process (speed limits and current speed) were in mph on speedometers and official speed limits were in mph on ALL posted speed limit signs.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

The vast majority of the Irish road network are older secondary and tertiary roads. Distance signs were white with distances posted in miles.

Also I see you conveniently ignored that the most crucial variables drivers processed (speed limits and current speed) were in mph on speedometers and official speed limits...

The vast majority of the Irish road network does not have directional or distance (RCS) signs of any description. That which does had a vast majority of KM signs. I'd bet there wasn't a single RCS in miles ever placed in the first place, at that.

Are you going to continue making false statements or what? The country was metric with the exception of speed limits from the 1970s, mainly due to the vast cost of changing these. These are now gone. Hence as a result anyone using miles - in any circumstance where they are not still used for good reason (such as railway mileposts) - is in the past. Myers falls under this.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

The vast majority of the Irish road network does not have directional or distance (RCS) signs of any description. That which does had a vast majority of KM signs. I'd bet there wasn't a single RCS in miles ever placed in the first place, at that.

Are you going to continue making false statements or what? The country was metric with the exception of speed limits from the 1970s, mainly due to the vast cost of changing these. These are now gone. Hence as a result anyone using miles - in any circumstance where they are not still used for good reason (such as railway mileposts) - is in the past. Myers falls under this.

Myers is very correct in using distances the majority of drivers in the country are accustomed to (everyone who drove pre 2005). For everyone else you can simply multiply the two figures he quotes - 140 and 250 miles by 1.609 to get your glorious kilometers. Now have you got any worthy criticisms of the article ?

DWCommuter

From my earliest memory on my Dads truck in the late 70s the Irish road network had a mixture of miles and kilometres signs. The Kilometre signs were a fob to "Europe" until 2005 when the change was made official. For the record, up until 2005 a speeding offence was deemed in "miles per hour" in our courts. Certain "age relevent" parts of our society still think in miles as opposed to Kilometres. Thats life.