Kevin Myers: "NRA makes idiotic decisions"

cantalach

Just on the drainage point...

I'm sure there are exceptions, and the section of the N7 to which Myers refers may well be one such exception, but my understanding is that what lies behind most of the flooding we see on roads in this country is not poor design and/or construction but rather poor maintenance. During the Autumn, it is vital that drains are checked for leaf accumulation and cleared if necessary. Is the NRA responsible for the maintenance of the motorways or is it the relevant local authority or toll concessionaire?

BluntGuy

It pains me to agree with Myers, because I normally can't stand the reactionary rubbish he writes in his column.

But this is an issue that needs to be highlighted before it's too late. I'm as proud as anyone of the emerging network, but it's four years later than promised, there's no integrated traffic management, sporadic rollout of phones, laybys without so much as a bin (I give him kudos for pointing this out), the obvious lack of MSAs, old routes resigned either poorly or not at all in many cases, PPP toll deals where the private sector doesn't actually take any risk, dubious D&B contracts (M50, M8 C-M). Then there's the whole fiasco with fibre-optic cables not being laid with the motorways, though this more a failure of Eamon Ryan, than the NRA I admit. Then there's the fiasco with 2+1 roads. The list goes on.

There's a whole bunch of problems and mistakes that were made that the government and NRA want and expect us to overlook, just because they're getting stretches of motorway open. I hope some slightly less odious journalists cover this topic in the future. I would hate to see lives lost due to NRA incompetence.

Chris_5339762

IMO the M11 Enniscorthy part of the PPPs should be scrapped for now (build New Ross as its own PPP) and the money to be spent on the land acquisition spent on land acquisition for all the MSAs. Then, put the MSAs out to private companies, telling them what to build. Then tell them to give say 10 - 15% of their profits back to the NRA/government.

Something like that anyway.

Empire o de Sun

ForiegnNational wrote: »

To be fair, he's not the only one, miles are still very much in use in society, even if we on Infrastructure are all decimally correct...

a) Do you make a Kilometerage Claim or a Mileage Claim when commuting on behalf of work?
b) Do you say "miles-and-miles" or "Kilometers-and-Kilometers"?
c) Have you ever used MPG when discussing the fuel economy of your car?
d) Have you heard of the "4 minute mile" or the "4 minute 1.609344 Kilometers"

Personally I think a little less of the Kilometer fascism when dealing with people is required on the boards in general. Just my opinion...

You'd say "Kilometres", in other english speaking metric countries you say kilometres, e.g. The car rental has unlimited kilometres.

miles and miles is an expression that will not go away, just mean a long way away. Like other expressions "mind you ps and qs"

litres per 100 km is the correct way to do it. And easy to get used to.

4 minute mile? only people from countries that use the (imperial) mile would care about doing it in 4 minutes. So that statement doesn't stand.

marmurr1916

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not just you FN. People will die because of the lack of MSAs.

If your claim is that people will die due to tiredness then consider this: nobody should drive in a condition where they're so tired that driving an extra few kilometres to the nearest motorway exit (or online layby) is dangerous. If you're that tired you shouldn't be driving at all, let alone on a motorway.

Let's say you're on a British motorway and you're utterly knackered. Do you drive to the next services (let's say it's 25 miles away) or do you exit at the next junction (let's say it's 10 miles away)? If you're that tired you should do neither, although the lesser of two evils is to drive to the next junction, exit the motorway and pull over to rest.

Put it this way - if you're absolutely exhausted you shouldn't be driving in the first place. If you are so tired that you need a rest, the safest thing to do is to pull over in the nearest safe place it's possible for you to rest. That isn't necessarily going to be an MSA even if you're on a British motorway.

An MSA is only the best place to rest if it's the nearest safe place to rest. If it's not the nearest safe place, then what good is it?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Acceptable alternatives to MSA's exist and need to be signposted seeing as the cash is not there to build proper ones.

It is an interim solution, a 'service mark' scheme sets a basic minimum that is available 24 hours a day and 365 days a year. Kilmartins in Athlone already meets such a standard from what I can see and if 'Hogans' in Galway will sign up that is really all we need + the Enfield MSA that is being built.

I cannot comment on the other routes but I am sure there are large service stations within 3 or 4km of each and every one of them that would willingly sign up for the 'service mark' scheme and deliver it. There was another excellent service station at the east end of Ballinasloe, a 4km round trip from Ballinasloe East junction come to think of it and possibly one around Kilbeggan.

A perfectly sensible suggestion. Get lobbying TDs, councillors and the NRA if you want it implemented.

Sponge Bob

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Let's say you're on a British motorway and you're utterly knackered. Do you drive to the next services (let's say it's 25 miles away) or do you exit at the next junction (let's say it's 10 miles away)?

Dude, they are located roughly every 25 miles in the UK, by the time you decide you need to pull over within 25 miles you are on top of it already....statistically speaking. We would not have the traffic volumes to justify such a high density of services mind!!!

Empire o de Sun

I think that a system of Parking only rest areas and full service rest areas is the best option.

I'd do it every 20 km ish or so and have a full rest area every third one.

20 km Parking
40 km Parking
60 km Full Rest area

And it should be a proper offline parking area with toilets. Not this little lay-by that is on the hard shoulder.

Each rest area should be placed in charge of maintenance of Parking rest areas as part of their operating concession.

L1011

Vladidim wrote: »

I couldn't agree more, given that everyone in this country grew up using miles.

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344. Must have been a good article if thats the only fault with it :rolleyes:

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344. Must have been a good article if thats the only fault with it :rolleyes:

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

cantalach

sesna wrote: »

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344.

The metric system has been taught in Irish primary schools for over 30 years and kilometres have been appearing on Irish road signs for almost as long. Despite this, you still regard those of us who use it as 'progressive'? With that mindset, it's no wonder changing anything takes so long in this country.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

MYOB wrote: »

Did we now?

Driving for half a decade, never grew up using miles except as speed limits. Which were replaced shortly after I took to the wheel.

About the ultimate bog response ? Oh, I'd stick by that too.

cantalach

MYOB wrote: »

Glad to see you removed your original reply...

Saw that. I'm still wondering what exactly a "bog response" is. Perhaps this is one?

sesna

cantalach wrote: »

The metric system has been taught in Irish primary schools for over 30 years and kilometres have been appearing on Irish road signs for almost as long. Despite this, you still regard those of us who use it as 'progressive'? With that mindset, it's no wonder changing anything takes so long in this country.

Really? We actually officially changed to metric for speed limits and speedometers only in 2005. Given that we are talking about road usage, the only aspect of the metric system used in Ireland until 2005 was km on some road signs - alot of road signs posted in miles .

So to sum up official speed limits (as designated in Road Traffic Act) in mph, speedometers in all cars in mph, and distances on road signs in mph.

And hint "progressive" was used tongue in cheek. Miles as a unit of measurement was actually the norm except on a few green road signs on newer roads.

sesna

cantalach wrote: »

Saw that. I'm still wondering what exactly a "bog response" is. Perhaps this is one?

The unnecessary use of the word now, commonly used as such in bog dialect.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Really? We actually officially changed to metric for speed limits and speedometers only in 2005. Given that we are talking about road usage, the only aspect of the metric system used in Ireland until 2005 was km on some road signs - alot of road signs posted in miles .

So to sum up official speed limits (as designated in Road Traffic Act) in mph, speedometers in all cars in mph, and distances on road signs in mph.

And hint "progressive" was used tongue in cheek. Miles as a unit of measurement was actually the norm except on a few green road signs on newer roads.

I wouldn't call every road sign erected for about 30 years, including a comprehensive renumbering of the entire road network 'a few'. Every road sign on every national route was in KM a long time before speed limits were converted over.

Take in to account that the N and R roads were never signed as such using miles and you'll see how blatantly wrong your "few green signs" claim.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I wouldn't call every road sign erected for about 30 years, including a comprehensive renumbering of the entire road network 'a few'. Every road sign on every national route was in KM a long time before speed limits were converted over.

Take in to account that the N and R roads were never signed as such using miles and you'll see how blatantly wrong your "few green signs" claim.

The vast majority of the Irish road network are older secondary and tertiary roads. Distance signs were white with distances posted in miles.

Also I see you conveniently ignored that the most crucial variables drivers process (speed limits and current speed) were in mph on speedometers and official speed limits were in mph on ALL posted speed limit signs.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

The vast majority of the Irish road network are older secondary and tertiary roads. Distance signs were white with distances posted in miles.

Also I see you conveniently ignored that the most crucial variables drivers processed (speed limits and current speed) were in mph on speedometers and official speed limits...

The vast majority of the Irish road network does not have directional or distance (RCS) signs of any description. That which does had a vast majority of KM signs. I'd bet there wasn't a single RCS in miles ever placed in the first place, at that.

Are you going to continue making false statements or what? The country was metric with the exception of speed limits from the 1970s, mainly due to the vast cost of changing these. These are now gone. Hence as a result anyone using miles - in any circumstance where they are not still used for good reason (such as railway mileposts) - is in the past. Myers falls under this.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

The vast majority of the Irish road network does not have directional or distance (RCS) signs of any description. That which does had a vast majority of KM signs. I'd bet there wasn't a single RCS in miles ever placed in the first place, at that.

Are you going to continue making false statements or what? The country was metric with the exception of speed limits from the 1970s, mainly due to the vast cost of changing these. These are now gone. Hence as a result anyone using miles - in any circumstance where they are not still used for good reason (such as railway mileposts) - is in the past. Myers falls under this.

Myers is very correct in using distances the majority of drivers in the country are accustomed to (everyone who drove pre 2005). For everyone else you can simply multiply the two figures he quotes - 140 and 250 miles by 1.609 to get your glorious kilometers. Now have you got any worthy criticisms of the article ?

DWCommuter

From my earliest memory on my Dads truck in the late 70s the Irish road network had a mixture of miles and kilometres signs. The Kilometre signs were a fob to "Europe" until 2005 when the change was made official. For the record, up until 2005 a speeding offence was deemed in "miles per hour" in our courts. Certain "age relevent" parts of our society still think in miles as opposed to Kilometres. Thats life.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Myers is very correct in using distances the majority of drivers in the country are accustomed to (everyone who drove pre 2005). For everyone else you can simply multiply the two figures he quotes - 140 and 250 miles by 1.609 to get your glorious kilometers.

I'd suspect the "majority of drivers" in this country are familiar with kilometres also, having seen them in everyday use for the best part of 40 years. Just because speed limits weren't converted doesn't mean people hadn't heard of kilometres before January 1st 2005.

Myers is living in the past in this case, but then again, he frequently appears to be reliving the second world war, so thats not surprising.

sesna

MYOB wrote: »

I'd suspect the "majority of drivers" in this country are familiar with kilometres also, having seen them in everyday use for the best part of 40 years. Just because speed limits weren't converted doesn't mean people hadn't heard of kilometres before January 1st 2005.

Myers is living in the past in this case, but then again, he frequently appears to be reliving the second world war, so thats not surprising.

Thanks for revealing your true motivation in criticising his correct use of miles. You're desperately grasping at straws though.

L1011

sesna wrote: »

Thanks for revealing your true motivation in criticising his correct use of miles. You're desperately grasping at straws though.

Seeing as I've not mentioned *any other part* of Myers' article, its you thats desperately looking for reasons to support his use of archaic measurements by claiming ulterior motives.

Actually read my posts before jumping wildly to conclusions, please.

steph1

I agree with the article. A lot of what he says is right.

I also agree with this quote taken from another post

'this country is pathologically opposed to excellence, and consistently sneers at those who demand it. The "ah sure 'twill do" attitude is a cancer in Irish public life and it must be eradicated.'

I am on the road from Mayo to Dublin very regularly. I usually travel via Longford as I am used to that particular route. If I leave Dublin after 10pm I would make sure I have enough fuel to last the journey. There is a 24 hour station on the Mullingar by-pass and after that there is one more 24 hour in Longford that only opened sometime late last year. And after that there is no petrol station opened from then until you hit either Castlebar or Ballina so anyone who is heading on further say to Westport or Belmullet would want to make sure they fill up.

A lot of these filling stations used to stay open till 11 or even midnight. But that was when the licensing laws allowed alcohol to be sold up until 11.30pm. And a lot of these service stations sold wine. Now because of the new 10pm closing - which I disagree with - a lot of these stations have decided that its not worth their while staying open and having to pay staff for this extra hour and a half with little or no business.

So by imposing this stupid rule on the off licences - and probably in an effort to entice people back into the pubs - which also seems to have fallen flat on its face - lots of people have either been cut hours or lost jobs.

Another thing I have noticed too is that there is very little traffic on the roads now at night - bar the trucks on their delivery runs. So there are a couple of reasons why its not going to pay the owner of a service station to stay open beyond 10pm at night.

Jayuu

In fairness, Myers isn't saying anything that lots of people haven't already said on threads in this forum. Its a pity that he has to do it in his typical smug, smarmy way because it makes people want to find fault with his logic. Believe me its sticks in my craw to say he's making sense because I usually can't stand him and his articles.

As for the miles/kilometres sideshow, I'm in my early 40s so would have been around 9 or 10 when the metric system was first introduced and I still realistically work in miles. I'm slowly starting to think purely in kilometres now but that's more to do with my speedometer having kilometres as its primary display as opposed to miles, rather that signage or speed limits. But this discussion is a sideshow; it doesn't undermine a lot of the logic of the article.

Empire o de Sun

If you are still thinking in miles that is only cos it was what you learned and having the speedos in MPH didn't help.

Now that cars have been in just km for over five years the amount of people exposed it getting bigger.

I talked in miles when I was younger, cos that's how everyone else talked, but when I first drove in the Uk, and the distances were in miles, I realised, I didn't have a clue how long a mile was, I was so used to distance signs in kilometres.

The conversion has happened so it's only through using it that you get used to it.

What gets me is news reports mixing units. "The oil slick is 5 km long and moving at 10 miles per day"

murpho999

sesna wrote: »

Oh okay, for all the progressive motorists you can just multiply Myers' figures by 1.609344. Must have been a good article if thats the only fault with it :rolleyes:

Agree he should have used KM's but lots of people I know still use miles and they are not all west brits.....most of them are sound as a pou....ehm Euro!

runway16

Zoney wrote: »

Not mentioned are various other issues like the "dodgy gantries" (a costly "learning experience" that shouldn't have been necessary in the journey to our present decent-enough gantry signs) and the needless nonsense of "high quality dual carriageway" that kept our national infrastructure tally low (not entirely irrelevant) and also cost yet more money (changing all those signs, repainting road markings).

QUOTE]

I wouldnt go so had on the NRA on that score Zoney. The whole HQDC thing was, in my view, a way of getting these built quickly without drawing the Ire of the environmental lobby. Saying you are building a dual carriageway is far less emotive than saying you are building a motorway. The re-designation was I reckon, a very clever tool. The roads were quietly built to motorway spec, then redesignated, as had probably been planned all along.

I remember when the Limerick - Nenagh route was first mooted - and i remember the farmers going berzerk over this "big new SUPER HIGHWAY". A simple change in terminology to HQDC meant most of these slipped under the radar... you only have to look at the whole M3 debacle to see how they dept of transport / NRA may have pulled a very clever move there... even if it meant changing the signs!

BluntGuy

sesna wrote: »

Myers is very correct in using distances the majority of drivers in the country are accustomed to (everyone who drove pre 2005). For everyone else you can simply multiply the two figures he quotes - 140 and 250 miles by 1.609 to get your glorious kilometers. Now have you got any worthy criticisms of the article ?

I don't see how he's particularly "correct" in using distances that you're no longer going to find on any signage or maps, but as was said two pages ago:

Furet wrote: »

Miles vs kilometres is off topic, but in all seriousness, to suggest that Myers's use of the former rather than the latter vitiates his column and renders it not worth reading is nonsensical.

The miles versus kilometres is for another thread. Back to discussing the merits/criticisms of the article.

Also, sesna, you should prob be more careful before ya hit "enter". Just because you've deleted a post, doesn't mean we haven't seen it.

sesna

BluntGuy wrote: »

I don't see how he's particularly "correct" in using distances that you're no longer going to find on any signage or maps, but as was said two pages ago:

A minor point already discussed in detail.

BluntGuy wrote: »

The miles versus kilometres is for another thread. Back to discussing the merits/criticisms of the article.

Agreed with already several times.

BluntGuy wrote: »

Also, sesna, you should prob be more careful before ya hit "enter". Just because you've deleted a post, doesn't mean we haven't seen it.

I have no problem in you seeing what I wrote on any deleted post. Was simply amending but thanks for the information.