People from Northern Ireland are not British!

enda1

dlofnep wrote: »

So do you denounce that you are Irish? People from England have no problem in calling themselves English. Scotland, Scottish. Wales, Welsh. So why can you not call yourself Irish? I mean, if the hardlined Mr. Ulster says No can call himself Irish - then surely there is hope for OwenC.

When's the last time you heard a Canadian call themselves American?

Sure there from the America's but its clear that the term American has become inextricably linked with the country USA.

Likewise, its would be hard for a NI Unionist to say their Irish if it will so easily be confused with the country Ireland rather than the landmass. Calling themselves British makes a lot more sense for them, and me.

karma_

enda1 wrote: »

When's the last time you heard a Canadian call themselves American?

Sure there from the America's but its clear that the term American has become inextricably linked with the country USA.

Likewise, its would be hard for a NI Unionist to say their Irish if it will so easily be confused with the country Ireland rather than the landmass. Calling themselves British makes a lot more sense for them, and me.

Your comparing a continent to an island?

Jaap

dlofnep wrote: »

So do you denounce that you are Irish? People from England have no problem in calling themselves English. Scotland, Scottish. Wales, Welsh. So why can you not call yourself Irish? I mean, if the hardlined Mr. Ulster says No can call himself Irish - then surely there is hope for OwenC.

If you are from Northern Ireland...going by the England = English, Scotland = Scottish method mentioned above...then people from the north are called Northern Irish I assume...simple enough!!!
Nationality-wise for passports Northern Irish people can choose to be British or Irish!!! All about the right to choose...not people telling you what you are!!!

enda1

karma_ wrote: »

Your comparing a continent to an island?

Yes. ?

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

Eh, I don't actually give a fiddlers about the use of the British Isles comment. I was referring to the "we're all christians". I'm not a Christian.

Also, I don't remember Africans being called a "Indian Ocean people".

I am sure Nigerians and onther residents of West African countries might be puzzled by this comment ?

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

I am sure Nigerians and onther residents of West African countries might be puzzled by this comment ?

Somehow, I doubt that they are.

karma_

enda1 wrote: »

Yes. ?

I'm sure enda you really don't need me to tell you that's a poor analogy. A better one would be Puerto Rico, who whilst affiliated with the US they remain a commonwealth of their own and are identified as Puerto Rican.

LordSutch

Jaap wrote: »

Northern Irish people can choose to be British or Irish!!! All about the right to choose...not people telling you what you are!!!

Eleven pages into this thread and I think we broadly agree that people cannot be told what Nationality they are, which is why Pat Kenny's Statement (Link in Post#1) caught my attention "People from Northern Ireland are Irish, and No Irish person in Northern Ireland is British"

He also speaks of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland ?? :cool: shouldn't that be Great Britain & Northern Ireland . . .

enda1

karma_ wrote: »

I'm sure enda you really don't need me to tell you that's a poor analogy. A better one would be Puerto Rico, who whilst affiliated with the US they remain a commonwealth of their own and are identified as Puerto Rican.

No not really.

My analogy perfectly describes the problem faced with the landmass/citizenship dilemma.

Your's doesn't.

karma_

Camelot wrote: »

Eleven pages into this thread and I think we broadly agree that people cannot be told what Nationality they are, which is why Pat Kenny's Statement (Link in Post#1) caught my attention "People from Northern Ireland are Irish, and No Irish person in Northern Ireland is British"

He also speaks of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland ?? :cool: shouldn't that be Great Britain & Northern Ireland . . .

Pedantry.

No one is arguing that the people of NI are not British citizens, they do however remain Irish/Northern Irish whether you like that fact or not.

karma_

enda1 wrote: »

No not really.

My analogy perfectly describes the problem faced with the landmass/citizenship dilemma.

Your's doesn't.

Landmass?

What about Europe?

LordSutch

karma_ wrote: »

Pedantry. No one is arguing that the people of NI are not British citizens, they do however remain Irish/Northern Irish whether you like that fact or not.

Pedantry? Well maybe it is pedantry to you, but surely this State left the UK many decades ago, leaving the North still part of the UK, where people can choose whether they are British or Irish. > I don't think its pedantry.

enda1

karma_ wrote: »

Landmass?

What about Europe?

Ireland is a landmass like America is.

What about Europe?

karma_

enda1 wrote: »

Ireland is a landmass like America is.

What about Europe?

You have to be kidding.

Germany, France, Spain?

Hell what about Asia? Africa even.

Landmass/citizenship issues galore.

irishh_bob

Camelot wrote: »

Eleven pages into this thread and I think we broadly agree that people cannot be told what Nationality they are, which is why Pat Kenny's Statement (Link in Post#1) caught my attention "People from Northern Ireland are Irish, and No Irish person in Northern Ireland is British"

He also speaks of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland ?? :cool: shouldn't that be Great Britain & Northern Ireland . . .

pat kennys statement was indeed peculiar , it originated aroud the topic of rory mcllroy ( a golfer from the unionist community in northern ireland ) and has almost evolved into a diplomatic incident at this stage , personally , im of the opinion that thier are both irish and british people living in the province of ulster which is on the island of ireland , im also of the opinion that you cant be both irish and british , while the big man from ballymena may have once claimed he was an irish man , he is not

enda1

karma_ wrote: »

You have to be kidding.

Germany, France, Spain?

Hell what about Asia? Africa even.

Landmass/citizenship issues galore.

What?

I don't know what you're talking about to be honest.
Ireland (landmass) and Ireland (county) have the same name. This is what I'm talking about.

Maybe South African could be another example.

"Hi I'm South African."

"Where in South Africa are you from?"

"Lesotho"

gurramok

irishh_bob wrote: »

while the big man from ballymena may have once claimed he was an irish man , he is not

Liam Neeson is an Irishman :P

ardmacha

It is racist to state that anyone who has lived in Ireland from birth to adulthood is not Irish, whatever their ethic origins or political views. There is a sickening casual racism in threads like this which would not be tolerated in other threads.

Gaelic32

How many countries were ruled by Britain?


Do you think the natives of all these places would consider themselves British?!!!





Colonial name
Modern name
Year of independence
Aden
Yemen
1967
Ascension Island

Not yet
Anguilla

Not yet
Australia

1901
Bahamas

1973
Bahrain

1971
Barbados

1966
Basutoland
Lesotho
1966
Bechuanaland
Botswana
1966
Bermuda

Not yet
British Cameroon
Cameroon (part)
1961
British Guyana
Guyana
1966
British Honduras
Belize
1981
British Somaliland
Somaliland
1960
British Solomon Islands
Solomon Is.
1978
Brunei
Brunei
1984
Burma
Myanmar
1948
Canada

1926
Cayman Islands

Not yet
Ceylon
Sri Lanka
1948
Cook Islands

NZ assoc.
Cyprus

1960
Egypt

1922?
Falkland Islands and dependencies

Not yet
Fiji

1970
Gambia

1965
Gibraltar

Not yet
Gilbert and Ellice Islands
Kiribati & Tuvalu
1979
1978
Gold Coast
Ghana
1957
Grenada

1974
Guernsey
Channel Is.




Hong Kong
China
1997
India
Pakistan & Bangladesh)
1947
Iraq

1932
Ireland

1922 (Partial)
Jamaica

1963
Jersey
Channel Is.

Kenya

1963
Kuwait


1961

Malaya
West Malaysia
1965

Maldive Islands

1976

Malta

1964

Mauritius

1961

Montserrat

Not yet

Newfoundland
Canada
1949

New Hebrides (with France)
Vanuatu
1980

New Zealand

1947

Nigeria

1960

North Borneo
Sabah
1965

Nyasaland
Malawi
1963

Oman

Never formally a protectorate

Papua New Guinea

1976

Palestine
Israel
1948

Pitcairn Island

Not yet

Qatar

1971

Rhodesia
Zimbabwe & Zambia
1979
1964

Sarawak
East Malaysia
1965

St Helena

Not yet

St Kitts
St Kitts/Nevis
1983

St Lucia

1979

St Vincent

1979

Seychelles

1976

Sierra Leone

1961

Singapore

1963

South Africa

1910

Sudan

1954

Swaziland

1968

Tanganyika
Tanzania
1963

Tonga

1970

Transjordan
Jordan
1948

Trinidad
Trinidad & Tobago
1962

Tristan Da Cunha

Not yet

Trucial Oman
United Arab Emirates
1971

Turks and Caicos Islands

Not yet

Uganda

1962

Western Samoa

1962

Zanzibar
Tanzania
1963

junder

ardmacha wrote: »

It is racist to state that anyone who has lived in Ireland from birth to adulthood is not Irish, whatever their ethic origins or political views. There is a sickening casual racism in threads like this which would not be tolerated in other threads.

Quite right, it is extremly bigoted to dictate to somebody what thier identy is. How dare people tell somebody who was born in northern Ireland and lived there till adulthood that they are Irish .

Gaelic32

oops, sorry - supposed to come out in table format - now have biggest post on this thread :pac:

LordSutch

Gaelic32 wrote: »

oops, sorry - supposed to come out in table format - now have biggest post on this thread :pac:

Great list you have there, but does it alter the Nationality of UK citizens?

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

Quite right, it is extremly bigoted to dictate to somebody what thier identy is. How dare people tell somebody who was born in northern Ireland and lived there till adulthood that they are Irish .

Isn't that what Britain was doing all this time prior to the Good Friday Agreement? Dictating to one section of the population that they were British.

Gaelic32

Camelot wrote: »

Great list you have there, but does it alter the Nationality of UK citizens?

Glad you liked it Camelot! - It was merely to illustrate that we are not the only ones on the globe who has endured british colonisation. This whole argument regarding nationality in the six counties is a result of said colonisation and occupation here - as already stated, pre 1922, the british refered to the uk as great britain and Ireland, that didnt mean that all the people here regarded themselves as british - they were irish but ruled by britain - similarily post 1922 the british just changed their title but it doesnt mean that people in the six counties are british - they are irish ruled by britain also. If you wish to be affiliated with britishness thats your call, no one is trying to take that away from you.

ardmacha

How dare people tell somebody who was born in northern Ireland and lived there till adulthood that they are Irish .

It is a simple fact that they are Irish, they may choose to identify with somewhere else. A person may be from Antrim but identify with Down. However it is clearly racist for people to claim no association with the place they were born and live in because they believe themselves superior to the natives.

LordSutch

Gaelic32 wrote: »

This whole argument regarding nationality in the six counties is a result of said colonisation and occupation here - as already stated, pre 1922, the british refered to the uk as great britain and Ireland, that didnt mean that all the people here regarded themselves as british - they were irish but ruled by britain - similarily post 1922 the british just changed their title but it doesnt mean that people in the six counties are british - they are irish ruled by britain also. If you wish to be affiliated with britishness thats your call, no one is trying to take that away from you.

Well, some might call it colonisation, but I fundamentally disagree with that term in relation this little group of islands, eg; (can the term be used in relation to the island next door? was Ireland colonised by the Vikings? was Britain colonised by the Italians?) Does 'colonisation' come into the equation when talking about the isle of Man? :cool: Anyway, the 'jist' of this thread is around what Pat Kenny said. Curiously you didn't pick up on Mr Kenny's reference to the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland' (Maybe he forgot about 1922)?

getz

Gaelic32 wrote: »

Glad you liked it Camelot! - It was merely to illustrate that we are not the only ones on the globe who has endured british colonisation. This whole argument regarding nationality in the six counties is a result of said colonisation and occupation here - as already stated, pre 1922, the british refered to the uk as great britain and Ireland, that didnt mean that all the people here regarded themselves as british - they were irish but ruled by britain - similarily post 1922 the british just changed their title but it doesnt mean that people in the six counties are british - they are irish ruled by britain also. If you wish to be affiliated with britishness thats your call, no one is trying to take that away from you.

does it upset you, that most of those colonies you are referring to hate the british so much that they want to still be a part of a commonwealth with the queen at the head ?i would think that on your part,its a own goal,and by the way it was the decision of the northern irish elected members of parliament who opted out of a independent ireland [that was their democratic right] not the british parliament,and it will also be the people in northern ireland who will decide when or if they will join the republic,not britain or ireland

Gaelic32

I think you'll find nothing factually wrong with my last post Camelot, its well documented in librarys around the globe.
With relation to Pat, well.... cant wait to hear what he has to say next. (wonder does he look at these posts?)

Carlos_Ray

getz wrote: »

does it upset you, that most of those colonies you are referring to hate the british so much that they want to still be a part of a commonwealth with the queen at the head ?i would think that on your part,its a own goal,and by the way it was the decision of the northern irish elected members of parliament who opted out of a independent ireland [that was their democratic right] not the british parliament,and it will also be the people in northern ireland who will decide when or if they will join the republic,not britain or ireland

There was nothing democratic about the creation of Northern Ireland. Ireland was always ONE country. The majority of the people in that ONE country wanted independence. However, the unionist community largely based in the North East, controlled basically all the industry, decided that they would not "give up" their special status and hence with the help of the British, turned what had always been ONE country into TWO.

Even if each of the six counties got to vote individually on which country they wanted to be part of at the time of partition, Northern Ireland would only have consisted of 4 counties.

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

Well, some might call it colonisation, but I fundamentally disagree with that term in relation this little group of islands,

How convenient.

Ireland was colonised by Britain. Disagreeing with it will not make it any less true. If you wish to live in delusion, by all means - go for it. Those plantations were not acts of colonisation, oh no - not according to our fine revisionist Camelot.