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SF now the largest political party in the north.

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    #512
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Camelot wrote: »
    Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

    That was dealt with earlier in the thread. I suggest reading it through.


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    #513
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

    Actually they do. It might serve you well to actually read the thread.


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    #514
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The author of post# 507 stated that "Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". and I have quite rightly replied that those (nationalists) do not have any representation in Westminster! maybe he hasn't read the thread right through ?


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    #515
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    The author of post# 507 stated that "Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". and I have quite rightly replied that those (nationalists) do not have any representation in Westminster! maybe he hasn't read the thread right through ?

    They don't require representation within Westminster to have representation. This has been covered. I'm not going to go around in circles on it.

    If you believe that a 5-seat nationalist party can defend the interests of their constituents in a 600 seat unionist house, then by all means - you can attempt to defend that position. However - the nationalist community is represented by Sinn Féin in Stormont where they continue to devolve/transfer authority, and through direct talks with the British Government, where they actually have power to instill change, instead of becoming a small number within the confines of Westminster.

    So in summary.
    • Sinn Féin does not have a mandate to take their seats.
    • Sinn Féin can accomplish more through direct talks.
    • Sinn Féin continues to devolve power at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete.
    • Westminster does not serve or progress the interests of the nationalist community.


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    #516
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster, Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!


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    #517
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster

    Where did I say that they were represented in Westminster?
    Camelot wrote: »
    Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!

    Yawn.


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    #518
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Where did I say that they were represented in Westminster?

    I said that nationalists who voted Sinn Fein were NOT represented in Westminster.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Yawn.

    And condescend if you wish :rolleyes:


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    #519
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    I said that nationalists were NOT represented in Westminster.

    And I never said they were. I said that they are represented - of which I have already explained how they are represented. You're avoided taking this onboard, and continued to paddle on around the topic of Westminster seats.
    Camelot wrote: »
    And condescend if you wish :rolleyes:

    That's cute - Accusations of being condescending, while using the rolling-eyes icon in the same sentence. I wasn't being condescending - I'm unenthusiastic to debate around the same old points which I have already addressed clearly and concisely on a number of occasions.


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    #520
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Camelot wrote: »
    Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

    agreed they are just voting for their side and are not voting for any other party its so bloody obvious!!


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    #521
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    owenc wrote: »
    agreed they are just voting for their side and are not voting for any other party its so bloody obvious!!

    Yeah, how dare they. Silly republicans voting for republican parties. How absurd!

    That would never happen with a unionist party.


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    #522
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    I've deleted the off-topic side-discussion on the Ulster Covenant as even by the standard of off-topickness that often runs inside threads on Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein and the price of peas in Sainsburys, that took my very last chocolate rich tea biscuit. The two of you who responded are just as culpable.

    Please learn the difference between on- and off-topic both as an initiator and a responder (hint: responders are just as bad), it would help me greatly. As I pointed out on the other Northern Ireland thread as well as others recently, if it's nothing to do with the thread title, you're probably off-topic. Thanking you for future remembrance.

    /mod


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    #523
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Wasn't this all discussed at length earlier in the thread, by the same poster even?

    have we come full circle?


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    #524
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They don't require representation within Westminster to have representation. This has been covered. I'm not going to go around in circles on it.

    If you believe that a 5-seat nationalist party can defend the interests of their constituents in a 600 seat unionist house, then by all means - you can attempt to defend that position. However - the nationalist community is represented by Sinn Féin in Stormont where they continue to devolve/transfer authority, and through direct talks with the British Government, where they actually have power to instill change, instead of becoming a small number within the confines of Westminster.

    So in summary.
    • Sinn Féin does not have a mandate to take their seats.
    • Sinn Féin can accomplish more through direct talks.
    • Sinn Féin continues to devolve power at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete.
    • Westminster does not serve or progress the interests of the nationalist community.


    So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

    Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?


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    #525
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Yeah, how dare they. Silly republicans voting for republican parties. How absurd!

    That would never happen with a unionist party.

    i said they :P


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    #526
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    anymore wrote: »
    So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

    To demonstrate that they can receive the votes, and show Britain that there is a mandate for nationalists.
    anymore wrote: »
    Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?

    You could say that if it helps you sleep at night. I see Sinn Féin's involvement in Stormont as a positive role, to allow them to represent the nationalist community - and have at least a modicum of say in relation to how internal affairs are run - devolving powers at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete. I don't see it as anything beyond that. I'm sure you could seek to find whatever you wanted out of any scenario to suit your views. Food for thought.


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    #527
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    anymore wrote: »
    So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

    Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?

    As much as you may not like the fact, you have to accept that a large portion of the population voted for SF, regardless of the fact the take or don't take their seats in Westminister. At the very least give the voters of NI the credit that they understand that to be the case but they STILL voted 5 SF candidates in.

    I'm not a republican, hell I don't even vote anymore, but I accept teh fact that Nationalists now vote overwhelmingly for SF and protestants for the DUP.


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    #528
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    owenc wrote: »
    i said they :P

    In fairness - there are options on both sides. Why wouldn't they vote for someone that represents their interests, out of curiosity? It would seem absurd to vote for a party that does not represent your views.


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    #529
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    dlofnep wrote: »
    To demonstrate that they can receive the votes, and show Britain that there is a mandate for nationalists.



    You could say that if it helps you sleep at night. I see Sinn Féin's involvement in Stormont as a positive role, to allow them to represent the nationalist community - and have at least a modicum of say in relation to how internal affairs are run - devolving powers at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete. I don't see it as anything beyond that. I'm sure you could seek to find whatever you wanted out of any scenario to suit your views. Food for thought.

    Of course they will also be drawing the salaies and pensions and expenses ! Burn everything except her coal......and salaries and pensions ! :)

    Of course that mandate is shared with the SDLP is it not ?


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    #530
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    In fairness - there are options on both sides. Why wouldn't they vote for someone that represents their interests, out of curiosity? It would seem absurd to vote for a party that does not represent your views.

    thats the way it is in ni they vote for their side, its the typical thing to do. :rolleyes:


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    #531
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    karma_ wrote: »
    As much as you may not like the fact, you have to accept that a large portion of the population voted for SF, regardless of the fact the take or don't take their seats in Westminister. At the very least give the voters of NI the credit that they understand that to be the case but they STILL voted 5 SF candidates in.

    I'm not a republican, hell I don't even vote anymore, but I accept teh fact that Nationalists now vote overwhelmingly for SF and protestants for the DUP.

    It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !
    The reality shows that even many Nationalists wouldnt opt to join the south if they had the opportunity -- particularily now i suppose.


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    #532
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    anymore wrote: »
    [irrelevant claptrap]

    Of course that mandate is shared with the SDLP is it not ?

    In some areas yes, in others no.


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    #533
    SlabMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 462 ✭✭SlabMurphy


    anymore wrote: »
    It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !
    The reality shows that even many Nationalists wouldnt opt to join the south if they had the opportunity -- particularily now i suppose.
    So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?


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    #534
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    SlabMurphy wrote: »
    So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?

    Have you read what i said ?


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    #535
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    SlabMurphy wrote: »
    So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?

    and how do you know who votes for what?


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    #536
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    owenc wrote: »
    and how do you know who votes for what?

    I think he's going by the rule of thumb that dictates Nationalists vote for Nationalist parties whereas Unionists vote for Unionist ones.


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    #537
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Camelot wrote: »
    Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster, Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!

    That was gone in to earlier. In detail.


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    #538
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Nodin wrote: »
    That was gone in to earlier. In detail.

    Indeed it was, but poster #507 stated that "I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". so I then replied for his benefit (post #511) that "Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters)" . . .

    And it continues . . . :rolleyes:


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    #539
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Camelot wrote: »
    Indeed it was, but poster #507 stated that "I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". so I then replied for his benefit (post #511) that "Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters)" . . .

    And it continues . . . :rolleyes:

    If you wish to disagree with what was earlier stated on the matter, then quote the posts. Otherwise I'll presume this is some attempt to get the last word in.


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    #540
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !

    Lloyd George would approve, he didn't care who the people of Fermanagh/South Tyrone voted for either.


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    #541
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Lloyd George would approve, he didn't care who the people of Fermanagh/South Tyrone voted for either.
    Given that all the nationalist/republican/SF/whatever-shade-of-green candidates elected in 1918 in Fermanagh and Tyrone except for Sean O'Mahony were also elected at the same time in other constituencies in what later became the Irish Free State/26 counties/whatever-yer-having-yerself he had good reason to not care but that probably wasn't your point and mine isn't intended to go off-topic...:)


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