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Irish language?

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    #122
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Terrible idea, face it, fluent Irish speakers are in a minority, trying to teach English only speaking children like this will result in them struggling in that subject.

    Most kids that go to Gaeilscoileanna are only English speaking, they don't seem to have a problem with it. In fact a higher percentage of Gaeilscoileanna kids go on to 3rd level education then kids in English speaking schools. Kids minds are like sponges, they will pick the language quicker if they are made to speak it


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    #123
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Most kids that go to Gaeilscoileanna are only English speaking, they don't seem to have a problem with it. In fact a higher percentage of Gaeilscoileanna kids go on to 3rd level education then kids in English speaking schools. Kids minds are like sponges, they will pick the language quicker if they are made to speak it
    But unless they are made speak it at home, they will still struggle. We are surrounded by English and it's simply way easier to use that as your first language. I don't see the point in damaging education in a useful subject for the advancement of a sentimental one.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #124
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,961 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Irish is a living language though and there's more Irish in the media and being written now then ever in the history of the language. Its been taught as a school subject when it should be taught as a social tool or skill
    Well, since it's been propped up by the government for decades, I would question the definition of "living". We don't know what state it would be in without that artificial lifeline.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #125
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Alot of Gaeilscoil kids only speak English at home and they don't struggle, I don't see your point, many countries a bilingual. I think you are underestimating the capacity of the human brain to comprehend


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    #126
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Most kids that go to Gaeilscoileanna are only English speaking, they don't seem to have a problem with it. In fact a higher percentage of Gaeilscoileanna kids go on to 3rd level education then kids in English speaking schools. Kids minds are like sponges, they will pick the language quicker if they are made to speak it

    Isn't that just a factor of having parents that care a lot about their child's education (what I mean is, a parent who makes a concious decision on where their child goes to school is also more likely to care that they get their homework done and what results they get etc)?


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    #127
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    bnt wrote: »
    Well, since it's been propped up by the government for decades, I would question the definition of "living". We don't know what state it would be in without that artificial lifeline.

    Its also being destroyed by the government, most notably the Dept. of Education, with its syllabus in Secondary schools


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    #128
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    Isn't that just a factor of having parents that care a lot about their child's education (what I mean is, a parent who makes a concious decision on where their child goes to school is also more likely to care that they get their homework done and what results they get etc)?
    Also the fact they get an unfair bonus in the leaving cert for answering through Irish

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #129
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Also the fact they get an unfair bonus in the leaving cert for answering through Irish
    Oh yeah I had forgotten about that..


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    #130
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Also the fact they get an unfair bonus in the leaving cert for answering through Irish

    I agree that this is unfair


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    #131
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    neil_hosey wrote: »
    ulster scots is not a language, any linguist will tel you that. Its a dialect of english brought over to northern ireland during the plantations of ulster by lowland scots (who spoke, "lowland scots", another dialect of english) loyal to England. IT is not a recognised language in language terms, it is not a recognised language in the republic and I think it may be in northern ireland mainly because the unionists felt their culture being threatened by irish being recognised up there, so they threw a hissy fit "meeeeeh!!! we want a language too!!!"... tit for tat ****e.

    Whereas one place where ive seen the most irish spoken and the most irish only street signs and shops/schools/etc.. was on the falls road in belfast.

    Ulster scots is NOT a dialect of irish, its in no way connected to irish, its a dialect of english.

    Anyway, im drifting..


    Gaeilge abu!
    i now believe[i am being educated ]the language is called ulster irish, it has its centre in donegal[in the republic] and in derry,and it is having a great revival in northern ireland with both catholics and protestants,its a old language and shares similarities to manx and scottish gaelic.


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    #132
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    getz wrote: »
    i now believe[i am being educated ]the language is called ulster irish, it has its centre in donegal[in the republic] and in derry,and it is having a great revival in northern ireland with both catholics and protestants,its a old language and shares similarities to manx and scottish gaelic.

    Ulster Irish is a dialect of Irish, it isn't a seperate language,
    I don't think too many Protestants speak it in the North either


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    #133
    poppyvalley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 372 ✭✭poppyvalley


    w
    ouldint the time teaching Irish be better spent learning a european or other language relevant in the modern world


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    #134
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    But unless they are made speak it at home, they will still struggle.

    Thats very incorrect. From people i know, its completely wrong. are you basing that on experience or do you know someone that this has happened to.


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    #135
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Ulster Irish is a dialect of Irish, it isn't a seperate language,
    I don't think too many Protestants speak it in the North either

    I am certain its not a dialect of irish. Its a dialect of english, see my above post on it.


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    #136
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Ulster Irish is a dialect of Irish, it isn't a seperate language,
    I don't think too many Protestants speak it in the North either
    neil_hosey wrote: »
    I am certain its not a dialect of irish. Its a dialect of english, see my above post on it.

    You need to read my post again


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    #137
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    neil_hosey wrote: »
    I am certain its not a dialect of irish. Its a dialect of english, see my above post on it.
    the most common languages spoken in northern ireland,english, irish, ulster scott,the most common languages spoken in the republic,english, polish, irish and shelta [cant]


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    #138
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    poppyvalley wrote: »
    w
    ouldint the time teaching Irish be better spent learning a european or other language relevant in the modern world

    Irish is relevant, just go to the Language section on boards.ie and you will see it has far more threads than any other language, and the poll above you tells us that the majority of people on boards thinks its relevant


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    #139
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    getz wrote: »
    the most common languages spoken in northern ireland,english, irish, ulster scott,the most common languages spoken in the republic,english, polish, irish and shelta [cant]

    Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is a dialect of English


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    #140
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    Ulster Scots isn't a language, it is a dialect of English
    dont want to burst your bubble but ulster scott is a official language,and is older than modern irish


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    #141
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    getz wrote: »
    dont want to burst your bubble but ulster scott is a official language,and is older than modern irish

    :rolleyes:

    Show me the proof


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    #142
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    Isn't that just a factor of having parents that care a lot about their child's education (what I mean is, a parent who makes a concious decision on where their child goes to school is also more likely to care that they get their homework done and what results they get etc)?
    Pretty much. Plus smaller class sizes etc. Its nada to do with Irish in of itself. Compare these schools with private schools of comparable size and teacher quality would give you an idea of their educational value, not with over crowded "normal" schools.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #143
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    Show me the proof
    +1. Scots gaelic is from the same root as Irish. It was brought there by the Irish in the first place. Any divergence would be down to separation over time. As for age, claiming a language as "old" is a hard one to do. Modern Irish is not like early 8th century irish and you wouldnt expect it to be. Same with english or french etc. Basque in europe seems to be very old though

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #144
    neil_hosey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,712 ✭✭✭neil_hosey


    Wibbs wrote: »
    +1. Scots gaelic is from the same root as Irish. It was brought there by the Irish in the first place. Any divergence would be down to separation over time. As for age, claiming a language as "old" is a hard one to do. Modern Irish is not like early 8th century irish and you wouldnt expect it to be. Same with english or french etc. Basque in europe seems to be very old though

    Scots Gaelic does not equal Ulster Scots...

    Ulster scots is dialectal variation on lowland scots which is a dialect of english. Just google it and see how it resembles english! i can understand it!



    Scots gaelic is in the same family of language (brythonic (sp?), ie cetic) as Irish, with irish predating it.

    Irish predates english also, by a long shot.


    Ulster Irish is just Irish AKA donegal irish.
    Therefore theres no way in hell ulster scots predates irish in any form.


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    #145
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Wibbs wrote: »
    +1. Scots gaelic is from the same root as Irish. It was brought there by the Irish in the first place. Any divergence would be down to separation over time. As for age, claiming a language as "old" is a hard one to do. Modern Irish is not like early 8th century irish and you wouldnt expect it to be. Same with english or french etc. Basque in europe seems to be very old though

    No! Ulster scots is not Scottish Gaelic it is english expect it is the dialect in antrim and north east county Derry they say words that Scottish people say like hallion wee and stuff like that but they don't sound Scottish maybe a little bit but a bit more in ballymoney my aunt has that accent and sounds well strong lol I'd you look up scots English ulster scots comes up


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    #146
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    ok lets sort this out

    We are insular celts (apart from anglo-saxons in England) that is people living in GB and Ireland

    There is two branches of Celtic languages on these islands
    Goidelic and Brythonic

    Goidelic consists of Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, Manx Gaelic which includes all their dialects (incl. Ulster Irish)

    Brythonic consists of Welsh, Cornish, Breton

    English is fundamentally a Germanic language with heavy French influences and some Norse and minor latin influences. Scots is a dialect of English and is also known as Lallans, due to the Ulster plantations Scots speakers moved to East Ulster and there own dialect is Ulster-Scots or Ullans (Ulster+Lallans = Ullans)


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    #147
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Scots = Language derived from Middle English. It matured alongside modern English, but not as modern English. It could be considered either a dialect or a language.

    Ulster Scots = Scots dialect derived from traditional Scots.

    Scottish Gaelic = Celtic language, derived from Middle Irish - Which shares many similarities with modern day Irish - although it is it's own language.

    I guess if we are to claim that Scottish Gaelic is it's own language (which it is), and not a dialect of Irish - then a similar argument could be made for Scots.

    Both Scottish Gaelic and Scots are derived from Middle Irish, and Middle English respectively and have matured over the duration of a few hundred years. Personally, I'm not bothered anymore whether people call Scots a dialect or a language. I used to think it was a dialect until I spoke to a chap who explained the history of it to me. Phonetically and visually, of course it's similar to English.

    Now - Back on topic :)


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    #148
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    ok lets sort this out

    We are insular celts (apart from anglo-saxons in England) that is people living in GB and Ireland

    There is two branches of Celtic languages on these islands
    Goidelic and Brythonic

    Goidelic consists of Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, Manx Gaelic which includes all their dialects (incl. Ulster Irish)

    Brythonic consists of Welsh, Cornish, Breton

    English is fundamentally a Germanic language with heavy French influences and some Norse and minor latin influences. Scots is a dialect of English and is also known as Lallans, due to the Ulster plantations Scots speakers moved to East Ulster and there own dialect is Ulster-Scots or Ullans (Ulster+Lallans = Ullans)
    the imformation i seem to be picking up is that the ulster scott language has not changed much since the 16th and 17th centuries ,now the irish language has changed and is still changing,and is not the irish language of the 16th century,and the anglo-saxon bit is a myth most native blood in the UK is celtic


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    #149
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    getz wrote: »
    the imformation i seem to be picking up is that the ulster scott language has not changed much since the 16th and 17th centuries ,now the irish language has changed and is still changing,and is not the irish language of the 16th century,and the anglo-saxon bit is a myth most native blood in the UK is celtic

    It's a dialect, English is the language :rolleyes:
    Yes most native blood in the UK is Celtic but there is saxon blood aswell


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    #150
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    getz wrote: »
    the imformation i seem to be picking up is that the ulster scott language has not changed much since the 16th and 17th centuries ,now the irish language has changed and is still changing,and is not the irish language of the 16th century,and the anglo-saxon bit is a myth most native blood in the UK is celtic

    It isn't even an language it's a dialect.. Were did anglo Saxons ce from don't get started lol


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    #151
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    It's a dialect, English is the language :rolleyes:
    Yes most native blood in the UK is Celtic but there is saxon blood aswell
    yes there is saxon blood in the english but that was only in parts of southern england,the angles only occupied on county in the south, like ireland the vikings intergrated more,but the biggest intergration of the english was the irish,in the years 900,the irish devided britain into estates,living as much this side of the water as in ireland,[things still havent changed] but we love em


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