Irish language?

Dont be at yourself · 26-03-2010 11:21am

Wibbs wrote: »

from earlier or co existing languages. French, Spanish, Italian and yes Irish too(and English) were massively influenced by Latin or sprung from it directly. That's great and it is interesting to trace where such influences lie, but its more academic than useful. Look at the vast majority of the internationally known Irish writers in english. Who were Irish speakers as well? Very very very few. Actually I can't think of one that was. It didnt seem to hinder them.

But that's the thing, it's not just of academic interest. People see the world through the language they speak. They think, form and express opinions in words. Irish has had a huge impact on Hiberno-English and by extent the way we think. Irish is ingrained in our psyche, and is still relevant.

Sure, many of our famous writers wrote in English as opposed to Irish. However, the English that they wrote in was not the Queen's English. It was an English packed with expressions, constructs and metaphors from Irish.

ClutchIt · 26-03-2010 11:52am

It's absolutely vital. Languages are priceless of course.

I don't believe there will ever be a new language, with this age of information and detailed dictionarys and books being so available.

Therefore it's amazing we have our own and it's the most important part of our culture.

arse..biscuits · 26-03-2010 12:18pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Middle class lip service

I hate when people say that. It really shows they don't know what they're talking about. I have conversations in Irish daily in my area, and my area is far from middle class.

Wibbs · 26-03-2010 12:22pm

neil_hosey wrote: »

Middle class lip service??

I meant the names.

no i think you will find that there are loads of gaelscoilleanna around the country, and loads in dublin, in many working class AND middle class areas..

Never said there wasnt.

Irish didnt spring from latin btw.. there are words in every language that can be found in many other languages including irish.

Try reading what I post. I said sprung from or influenced by. There is a lot of latin in Irish. Naturally enough as when literacy first kicked off in this country latin because of the church was a big influence.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

But that's the thing, it's not just of academic interest. People see the world through the language they speak. They think, form and express opinions in words. Irish has had a huge impact on Hiberno-English and by extent the way we think. Irish is ingrained in our psyche, and is still relevant.

Sure, many of our famous writers wrote in English as opposed to Irish. However, the English that they wrote in was not the Queen's English. It was an English packed with expressions, constructs and metaphors from Irish.

Yes but you're missing the point. It had an influence on the english we speak, but its one helluva stretch to suggest it still does, would or did directly with those writers. Very very very few of whom were Irish speakers. There were bigger influences on their work. It was a part of it. Put it another way, if we never spoke or wrote in english(or french or a widely used language) Irish writers would be pretty unknown outside of this country. Ditto for a lot of other cultural expressions of our heritage.

ClutchIt wrote: »

I don't believe there will ever be a new language, with this age of information and detailed dictionarys and books being so available.

There never really was a "new" language. Languages dont work like that. They evolve from earlier ones and are constantly being influenced. They're still evolving. Try using Google as a verb 20 years ago.

Therefore it's amazing we have our own and it's the most important part of our culture.

Objectively it cant be the "most important part of our culture". What is the language used for 90+% of our communication? Its not Irish. Will it ever be? Maybe, if people want and use it, but the most important part of our culture nonsense gets my goat. OK if thats the case then excise every non Irish speaking person from our history. See whats left of what you define as "our culture". You would decimate this list for a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_people Thats exclusionary nonsense IMH. It suggests a lack of it makes the person less Irish.

owenc · 26-03-2010 12:26pm

SandStone wrote: »

I'd recommend devoting as much time as possible to brushing up your English in your case anyway.

Erm i think you need to go back to school. Your attitute stinks.. seriously.. go back and learn how to approach people correctly on a WORLDWIDE INTERNET and seriously what is the point in speaking in some snobby dialect which you do not speak like when at home?

Wibbs · 26-03-2010 12:30pm

arse..biscuits wrote: »

I hate when people say that. It really shows they don't know what they're talking about. I have conversations in Irish daily in my area, and my area is far from middle class.

It is changing and thats a good thing, but for too long Irish outside rural areas was either an olde Ireland chucky thing or a fainne wearing middle class thing. I think that put so many off too.

neil_hosey · 26-03-2010 12:36pm

ok i see what you mean by the lip service.. but theres nothing wrong with giving your kids irish names.. would you rather them be called Jake, Alannah, and Chad... tbh them names bug me infinitely more!

When irish was first written down on paper, itthe latin alphabet was used. Thats about the extent of it. Maybe some religious connections later early irish due to introduction of christianity.

Krusader · 26-03-2010 12:40pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes but you're missing the point. It had an influence on the english we speak, but its one helluva stretch to suggest it still does, would or did directly with those writers. Very very very few of whom were Irish speakers. There were bigger influences on their work. It was a part of it. Put it another way, if we never spoke or wrote in english(or french or a widely used language) Irish writers would be pretty unknown outside of this country. Ditto for a lot of other cultural expressions of our heritage.

The Hiberno-English that we speak today is greatly influenced by Gaeilge, as all learners of any language, people try and directly translate one language into another, as the majority of Irish were learners of English in the 18th/19th century, this is exactly what they did. This is why we say things like "I'm after..." "I do be..." "I'm giving out to them" "I'm heading..." and thats just the tip of the iceberg

Wibbs · 26-03-2010 12:47pm

That was then and this is now. That Hiberno English influence thing is mostly in the past as an influence. Whats much more likely to happen today is that english will influence irish not the other way around. Like you said when people learn a language they try to directly translate. You hear it a fair bit with people attempting to speak irish. Lost of english words thrown in. Partly down to lack of vocab, but structure will follow as english is their first and primary language.

Unless you have an unbroken line of teaching from people with Irish as their first language that is bound to happen. In schoolI was taught by a guy who had learned Irish as an adult(to the degree he needed to teach it). That's going to be more common. That's grand, as it'll be evolving, but it will be a different language, which kinda screws with the notion of this pickled in aspic cultural touchstone.

Krusader · 26-03-2010 1:16pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I meant the names. Never said there wasnt.

There never really was a "new" language. Languages dont work like that. They evolve from earlier ones and are constantly being influenced. They're still evolving. Try using Google as a verb 20 years ago.

Wibbs wrote: »

That was then and this is now. That Hiberno English influence thing is mostly in the past as an influence. Whats much more likely to happen today is that english will influence irish not the other way around. Like you said when people learn a language they try to directly translate. You hear it a fair bit with people attempting to speak irish. Lost of english words thrown in. Partly down to lack of vocab, but structure will follow as english is their first and primary language.

Unless you have an unbroken line of teaching from people with Irish as their first language that is bound to happen. In schoolI was taught by a guy who had learned Irish as an adult(to the degree he needed to teach it). That's going to be more common. That's grand, as it'll be evolving, but it will be a different language, which kinda screws with the notion of this pickled in aspic cultural touchstone.

Yes I agree, but English is influencing close to every language in the world due to Americanisation and globalisation,does this make them any less culturally significant in their own countries, but as you said above, languages evolve and this would be part of the evolution of Gaeilge.
Syntax might change but nothing to drastic to make it unrecognisable in 50 years time

Intothesea · 26-03-2010 1:26pm

Wibbs wrote: »

That's grand, as it'll be evolving, but it will be a different language, which kinda screws with the notion of this pickled in aspic cultural touchstone.

If Irish was well-taught (emphasis on speaking with 'blas', or natural flow), and children indulged in original epic poetry etc., it could easily form the enriching and enlivening cultural double-stop or strong harmonic that it was supposed to be at the outset of its appearance in skools, I think. There's no reason why the average person shouldn't shoot for specific knowledge of the source awareness buried underneath the everyday English version. It's a journey that overall would help smooth down the tensions that Irish people suffer with about who or what they are. The same tensions mean the language is as much maligned as loved.

getz · 26-03-2010 1:40pm

Wibbs wrote: »

That was then and this is now. That Hiberno English influence thing is mostly in the past as an influence. Whats much more likely to happen today is that english will influence irish not the other way around. Like you said when people learn a language they try to directly translate. You hear it a fair bit with people attempting to speak irish. Lost of english words thrown in. Partly down to lack of vocab, but structure will follow as english is their first and primary language.

Unless you have an unbroken line of teaching from people with Irish as their first language that is bound to happen. In schoolI was taught by a guy who had learned Irish as an adult(to the degree he needed to teach it). That's going to be more common. That's grand, as it'll be evolving, but it will be a different language, which kinda screws with the notion of this pickled in aspic cultural touchstone.

last month when in ireland and watching irish speaking TV,i was stunned to hear many of the irish speakers suddenly breaking out in full sentences of english, just to note ireland has now officially three languages

owenc · 26-03-2010 1:45pm

getz wrote: »

last month when in ireland and watching irish speaking TV,i was stunned to hear many of the irish speakers suddenly breaking out in full sentences of english, just to note ireland has now officially three languages

whats the third one wikipedia tells me that it is irish and english..

Blisterman · 26-03-2010 1:46pm

dr gonzo wrote: »

(mods please move if this shouldnt be here)

A mate(A boards moderator in fact) and i agree to disagree about the Irish language, he thinks its dead and we should move on which ill admit, irritates me a little because i think its something important to hang on to.

Funny you should say that cause a mate of mine (a boards member in fact) and I disagree on the Irish language. I think it's dead and we should move on. This irritates him a little because he thinks its something important to hang onto.

old hippy · 26-03-2010 1:48pm

I don't mind it. I've only cupla focail & wish I had concentrated a bit more in class but to be fair, I had some pretty bad teachers - you could tell their hearts weren't in it.

What upset me a couple of years back was to see yobs on Stormfront, boasting about how they used the language to confuse foreigners. Which was quite shameful, I thought.

getz · 26-03-2010 2:09pm

owenc wrote: »

whats the third one wikipedia tells me that it is irish and english..

i believe it was excepted in the belfast agreement that gaelic[the older language] would be put on equal footing with irish and english,it is said[but i dont believe it]that 17% of the under 25s in northern ireland claim to have some knowledge of it, its the kind of thing you often seen painted by the IRA on the walls in the north,i do know that there is a big revival for it now,maybe thats because of the republics push in schools to teach irish

Krusader · 26-03-2010 2:16pm

getz wrote: »

i believe it was excepted in the belfast agreement that gaelic[the older language] would be put on equal footing with irish and english,it is said[but i dont believe it]that 17% of the under 25s in northern ireland claim to have some knowledge of it, its the kind of thing you often seen painted by the IRA on the walls in the north,i do know that there is a big revival for it now,maybe thats because of the republics push in schools to teach irish

gaelic is irish, many people from the Gaelthacht call Irish, Gaelic when speaking in English

Also Scots Gaelic is called just Gaelic in America but in the instance you're talking about Gaelic is Irish

bnt · 26-03-2010 2:22pm

It looks to me as if there are two different arguments underway here. There's a difference between a) learning a second language in school, and b) having an official second language for government business.

Compare the situation in Ireland with the situation in Italy: many students there learn Latin as part of a Liceo (secondary) education. Students at Liceo Classico schools study the Classics, so it's basically compulsory there, while it's an option at other Liceo types.

If you go to Italy, however, you don't see Latin on road signs or official documents (except the occasional motto). You see more English in daily life. In other words: you can preserve a language in your culture without making its use compulsory. The body of work in that language has sufficient value to make it worth of study and preservation.

owenc · 26-03-2010 2:22pm

getz wrote: »

i believe it was excepted in the belfast agreement that gaelic[the older language] would be put on equal footing with irish and english,it is said[but i dont believe it]that 17% of the under 25s in northern ireland claim to have some knowledge of it, its the kind of thing you often seen painted by the IRA on the walls in the north,i do know that there is a big revival for it now,maybe thats because of the republics push in schools to teach irish

No gaelic is irish and on the wikipedia for ireland it says irish and english so whats the third language??? If your talking about learning irish in schools?? that has nothing to do with the republic of ireland pushing them into learning it its more of a religious thing as usual :rolleyes: .... in schools with a catholic majority they will make their students learn irish... i think its done to bounce off other religions ... the next thing we'll here of the protestant schools learning scottish!:rolleyes: but thats for later..

getz · 26-03-2010 2:33pm

owenc wrote: »

No gaelic is irish and on the wikipedia for ireland it says irish and english so whats the third language??? If your talking about learning irish in schools?? that has nothing to do with the republic of ireland pushing them into learning it its more of a religious thing as usual :rolleyes: .... in schools with a catholic majority they will make their students learn irish... i think its done to bounce off other religions ... the next thing we'll here of the protestant schools learning scottish!:rolleyes: but thats for later..

you have me beat there ,all i can think is that the belfast agreement is that the scottish gaelic will be excepted on equal footing,grants ect

owenc · 26-03-2010 2:34pm

getz wrote: »

you have me beat there ,all i can think is that the belfast agreement is that the scottish gaelic will be excepted on equal footing,grants ect

scottish gaelic! that is just to go against others... :rolleyes: tbh they have nothing to do with scottish gaelic as they would be coming from mainland scotland not the highlands and if that were the case some would be speaking scottish gaelic here not english...:rolleyes: are you talking about ulster scots?

Krusader · 26-03-2010 2:37pm

bnt wrote: »

It looks to me as if there are two different arguments underway here. There's a difference between a) learning a second language in school, and b) having an official second language for government business.

Compare the situation in Ireland with the situation in Italy: many students there learn Latin as part of a Liceo (secondary) education. Students at Liceo Classico schools study the Classics, so it's basically compulsory there, while it's an option at other Liceo types.

If you go to Italy, however, you don't see Latin on road signs or official documents (except the occasional motto). You see more English in daily life. In other words: you can preserve a language in your culture without making its use compulsory. The body of work in that language has sufficient value to make it worth of study and preservation.

Irish is a living language though and there's more Irish in the media and being written now then ever in the history of the language. Its been taught as a school subject when it should be taught as a social tool or skill

Agricola · 26-03-2010 2:42pm

I think it should be preserved and not be allowed to die completely. I would prefer it to be treated maybe a bit more like a cultural distinction, whereby its used purely to acknowledge our heritage, like in the use of place-names etc. Making it compulsory in schools up to LCert, conducting Dáil business in Irish, duplicating every piece of government paperwork into a language which a small percentage of people actually use, is just vanity.
We should be able to preserve our Irish heritage, including the language, without codding ourselves into thinking we're an Irish speaking nation.

GLaDOS · 26-03-2010 2:46pm

Crosáidí wrote: »

In English speaking national schools, we need to teach at least 2 more subjects through Irish, like PE, drama, history, geography

Terrible idea, face it, fluent Irish speakers are in a minority, trying to teach English only speaking children like this will result in them struggling in that subject.

getz · 26-03-2010 2:49pm

owenc wrote: »

scottish gaelic! that is just to go against others... :rolleyes: tbh they have nothing to do with scottish gaelic as they would be coming from mainland scotland not the highlands and if that were the case some would be speaking scottish gaelic here not english...:rolleyes: are you talking about ulster scots?

i must be

getz · 26-03-2010 2:53pm

from what i can gather ,the language is called ulster irish [but i am still no wiser]

owenc · 26-03-2010 2:54pm

suppose you could preserve it but what is the point in preserving it really, it isnt going to get anywhere and if it was preserved it would just be there and wouldnt do anything

owenc · 26-03-2010 2:55pm

getz wrote: »

from what i can gather ,the language is called ulster irish [but i am still no wiser]

ugh right ive heard of that according to wikipedia its the dialect of the irish language spoken in the province of ulster.

getz · 26-03-2010 2:58pm

owenc wrote: »

ugh right ive heard of that according to wikipedia its the dialect of the irish language spoken in the province of ulster.

what ever it is ,its intergrated as part of the belfast agreement ,

neil_hosey · 26-03-2010 3:00pm

getz wrote: »

from what i can gather ,the language is called ulster irish [but i am still no wiser]

ulster scots is not a language, any linguist will tel you that. Its a dialect of english brought over to northern ireland during the plantations of ulster by lowland scots (who spoke, "lowland scots", another dialect of english) loyal to England. IT is not a recognised language in language terms, it is not a recognised language in the republic and I think it may be in northern ireland mainly because the unionists felt their culture being threatened by irish being recognised up there, so they threw a hissy fit "meeeeeh!!! we want a language too!!!"... tit for tat ****e.

Whereas one place where ive seen the most irish spoken and the most irish only street signs and shops/schools/etc.. was on the falls road in belfast.

Ulster scots is NOT a dialect of irish, its in no way connected to irish, its a dialect of english.

Anyway, im drifting..

Gaeilge abu!

Irish language?

Comments