Irish language?

Krusader

Shouldn't all subjects be optional then

lugha

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course you can. English beyond junior cert level serves absolutely no purpose.

I wouldn’t be averse to dropping the compulsion on English (as a literature type subject) but I would favour there being something which promotes communication skills.

dlofnep wrote: »

I've also got on fine without leaving cert level maths. I'm in my final year in an honours degree course in the field of IT, and haven't failed an exam in the 4 years.

I’m afraid that’s akin to he argument that “I smoke and drank like a trooper all my life and had no ill effect”. Good for you if you have sailed through, but many students on such degrees would and do struggle without a solid foundation in maths.

dlofnep wrote: »

If you want Irish to be optional for leaving cert level - That's fine, there's an argument to be made. But if you reject the idea that there's an argument to be made for the idea of optional English at leaving cert level - you're a hypocrite.

It shouldn’t be about making a subject optional. That should be the default. You should need to make a case for insisting that any subject be compulsory. And I think you can make a case for maths and English (even as the literature course it currently is, it enhances communication skills). What's you're case for insisting that Irish be compulsory?

dlofnep wrote: »

Quoting Shakespeare has absolutely nothing to do with education. It's as much cultural as Peig Sayers is.

Interesting take on education. Oh, wait you’re an IT guy. :P

dlofnep wrote: »

Please don't try make the case that those views are from anything other than a minority.

Ah, well there is an obvious way to test the view that the resentment of Irish is only a minority view. Make it optional. And if you are right, it will have a negligible effect on the numbers studying it.

lugha

Rebelheart wrote: »

Irish is the language of my country

No it isn't. Perhaps it should be. Perhaps you wish it were. Perhaps you like to pretend it is. You can insist it's an official language. But it isn't the language the people of Ireland speak. It probably isn't even the second or third more frequently spoken language here.


Oh, BTW ... posting in English ...... irony ....... :pac:

Rebelheart

lugha wrote: »

No it isn't. Perhaps it should be. Perhaps you wish it were. Perhaps you like to pretend it is. You can insist it's an official language. But it isn't the language the people of Ireland speak. It probably isn't even the second or third more frequently spoken language here.


Oh, BTW ... posting in English ...... irony ....... :pac:

Oh, that would be because people like you seek to ban people like me when we write in the Irish here. I wouldn't mind but your grasp of the English language is significantly worse than any of the very many speakers of Irish whom I know. Intellectually, as well as educationally, you are in no position to sneer at any Irish speaker here. That is irony.

owenc

Rebelheart wrote: »

Oh, that would be because people like you seek to ban people like me when we write in the Irish here. I wouldn't mind but your grasp of the English language is significantly worse than any of the very many speakers of Irish whom I know. Intellectually, as well as educationally, you are in no position to sneer at any Irish speaker here. That is irony.

why are you being so rude to people who do not want to learn irish? its their choice.

Rebelheart

owenc wrote: »

why are you being so rude to people who do not want to learn irish? its their choice.

Why do you come into the middle of something and blab something out without doing basic research into the background?

dlofnep

lugha wrote: »

I wouldn’t be averse to dropping the compulsion on English (as a literature type subject) but I would favour there being something which promotes communication skills.

No qualms with that.

lugha wrote: »

I’m afraid that’s akin to he argument that “I smoke and drank like a trooper all my life and had no ill effect”.

Not really. Nothing I have done in college required leaving cert level English from me.

lugha wrote: »

Good for you if you have sailed through, but many students on such degrees would and do struggle without a solid foundation in maths.

Many even with a solid foundation in maths had problems with it. I had maths for 2 years - didn't fail one exam. I just worked hard, put the effort in and I passed. But there is certainly a case for maths being required for entry to such courses. I applied as a mature student - so I circumvented it.

lugha wrote: »

It shouldn’t be about making a subject optional. That should be the default. You should need to make a case for insisting that any subject be compulsory. And I think you can make a case for maths and English (even as the literature course it currently is, it enhances communication skills).

I don't think that you can make the case for either of them being compulsory. I'm a living example of someone who has neither of the above subjects under my belt at leaving cert level, and I've done just fine in life.

I don't think there is a case for having the works of Shakespeare and friends being mandatory subjects for the leaving cert. I would put more weight on maths however as a compulsory subject over either Irish or English - although, it's not essential for everyone, and only for certain streams.

lugha wrote: »

What's you're case for insisting that Irish be compulsory?

I haven't insisted on Irish being compulsory, at least not for leaving cert level. Up until that point - I believe it should be compulsory based on cultural grounds - to allow the language to thrive, and remain a part of Irish culture. I believe that the majority of the people agree that it should remain a part of Irish culture - and thus, there's no reason why it shouldn't be compulsory education.

There's two issues we can discuss here - One is, Irish being compulsory, and the other is Irish being compulsory for the leaving cert. Which do you want to discuss, as they are two different topics of debate imo.

lugha wrote: »

Interesting take on education. Oh, wait you’re an IT guy. :P

I am an IT guy - but I'm also an average Joe, who's lived long enough on this earth to give my opinion on the importance or lack of - of Shakespeare in the real world.

lugha wrote: »

Ah, well there is an obvious way to test the view that the resentment of Irish is only a minority view. Make it optional. And if you are right, it will have a negligible effect on the numbers studying it.

That would be one way to test it. But would it really test the amount of people who resent the language. For example - if someone dropped Irish on the basis of wanting to focus more time into science and maths on account of looking to pursue science in college - would that mean that they automatically resent the language? No.

But I do think, that even if made optional - there would be a high uptake of it as a subject. But prior to that happening, I would advocate a compulsory "conversational Irish" class, which doesn't have exams - with grammar/poetry and such coming under perhaps "Irish language & culture" as a subject, which could be optional.

I see no harm in teaching people the indigenous and historic language of their nation. I think that the majority of the people in Ireland would agree with me.

lugha

owenc wrote: »

why are you being so rude to people who do not want to learn irish? its their choice.

Oh never mind the Rebel. His contributions here are for entertainment purposes only. Surely you don't take his views on anything seriously?

Rebelheart

lugha wrote: »

Oh never mind the Rebel. His contributions here are for entertainment purposes only. Surely you don't take his views on anything seriously?

Coming from you, I'll take that as a compliment.

owenc

lugha wrote: »

Oh never mind the Rebel. His contributions here are for entertainment purposes only. Surely you don't take his views on anything seriously?

no, not really Rebel just likes to bring politics into everything and insult others... :rolleyes: i wonder if hes from ni?

lugha

owenc wrote: »

no, not really Rebel just likes to bring politics into everything and insult others... :rolleyes: i wonder if hes from ni?

I think he's from John Bruton country.

owenc

lugha wrote: »

I think he's from John Bruton country.

yea he must be:D

dlofnep

Gotta love the hypocrisy.

unreggd

irishdub14 wrote: »

But maths isnt pointless, yes i know we all dont use trigonometry and algebra (well most of us), but it strengthens and increases brain power and helps improve our minds. Just like in English, why do we learn shakespere? It helps improve our understanding of the language, structure and emotions....!

I don't agree that maths improves your mind, as for most people its nothin but stress
Brain training for my DS, crossword, and even spot the difference puzzles / riddles, they all improved my general skills way better than school maths ever did

If anything is taught in a poor way, it will end up useless

If you speak Irish well, then its not pointless, cos you can use it to speak to people

Shakespeare is a load of bollix! Decent stories ruined with made-up words and phrases. If anything, we spent more time analysing what the fxck they were saying more than the rest

lugha wrote: »

Good for you if you have sailed through, but many students on such degrees would and do struggle without a solid foundation in maths

But that's the thing, Maths you need for your career, you'll learn in college

And your ability to take in maths in different depending on your "brain type"
Apparently if you're creative / arty [which I am] you're good at languages, but bad at maths
And I've found this true about myself. I picked up Higher Level Irish and French pretty easily, but never been great at maths, even thought I put in lots of work
You really need to be the type of person who just "gets" it

bodice ripper

The english literature and poetry (incl. Shakespeare) I studied in school has had far more input into my day to day life and ability to understand the world around me than any irish I studied.


"Shakespeare is a load of bollix! Decent stories ruined with made-up words and phrases."

made up words and phrases? Unlike irish, where the word for anything more modern than a small wooden boat is just the word in english spelled with an extra few consonants? please....

Rebelheart

bodice ripper wrote: »

The english literature and poetry (incl. Shakespeare) I studied in school has had far more input into my day to day life and ability to understand the world around me than any irish I studied.

Let me see: you're a Shakespearean actor? In the real world, the vast majority of Irish people have no need for it, yet it is pummelled down their throats by it being part of the compulsory English language curriculum for the Leaving Certificate.

bodice ripper wrote: »

made up words and phrases? Unlike irish, where the word for anything more modern than a small wooden boat is just the word in english spelled with an extra few consonants? please....

Yeah, it's great to know all these modern English words like television, internet, global village, world wide web etc have no roots in Latin, Greek, French or the like. Or, at least they don't if you believe that "all roads lead to mother England". For such people, the modern English language is, it appears, a linguistic island.

Educate yourself so you may be free.

El Siglo

Don't care about Irish, don't need to speak it to show my nationalism. I'd put more money into educational reform of maths than I would into Irish. Seriously, which subject is going to be more useful in the future? Which subject has allowed for more discoveries? Maths is the language of physics, it's the personification of logic, it's the tools for engineering and chemistry. Irish, what does it offer? A bunch of cultural elitists.

dlofnep

bodice ripper wrote: »

The english literature and poetry (incl. Shakespeare) I studied in school has had far more input into my day to day life and ability to understand the world around me than any irish I studied.

Oh really?

bodice ripper wrote: »

made up words and phrases? Unlike irish, where the word for anything more modern than a small wooden boat is just the word in english spelled with an extra few consonants? please....

But yet - it didn't help you understand that all languages take loan words from other languages. It reminds me of a post on here a few months back in a similar thread, where a user poked fun at the Irish language taking a loan word - calling a television "telefís". And judging by your post - I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't know where tele & vision come from.

And don't worry, checking wikipedia for it now - and posting about how you knew all along won't save face.

Drakmord

El Siglo wrote: »

Don't care about Irish, don't need to speak it to show my nationalism. I'd put more money into educational reform of maths than I would into Irish. Seriously, which subject is going to be more useful in the future? Which subject has allowed for more discoveries? Maths is the language of physics, it's the personification of logic, it's the tools for engineering and chemistry. Irish, what does it offer? A bunch of cultural elitists.

Exactly, I don't feel the my lack of ability to speak Irish makes me anyway less Irish. We should be altering our school system to be teaching useful languages from a young age than wasting all this time on Irish. Also, if funding needed to keep Irish alive was reallocated towards Maths + Sciences, we may have a better educated workforce.

I am sick to death of the Irish speaking elitists/nazis jamming their language down our throats. I have no desire to learn/speak it. I already suffered through 14 years of Irish classes and crap when I could have been using my time more efficiently.

Make it an optional subject and either let it sink or swim!

/rant

dlofnep

El Siglo wrote: »

Don't care about Irish, don't need to speak it to show my nationalism.

Nobody said you did.

El Siglo wrote: »

I'd put more money into educational reform of maths than I would into Irish.

I thought maths was taught quite well. If you feel that there's something wrong with it, then by all means - push for reform. I'm not going to argue with you.

El Siglo wrote: »

Seriously, which subject is going to be more useful in the future?

That depends on the person. Irish is going to be more useful to someone involved in the Irish language industry than maths is. Maths is going to be more useful for someone involved in IT or Science orientated industries. Maths on a wider scale is obviously more useful in the work-place. Nobody is trying to dispute that. But you're trying to create a scenario that only allows someone to choose one subject over the other - and that clearly does not, or will not exist.

El Siglo wrote: »

Irish, what does it offer? A bunch of cultural elitists.

I'd say that's more of an inferiority complex than anyone being a cultural elitist. I'm certainly not a cultural elitist. I just like the Irish language, and if I was truly a cultural elitest - I would haven't taken time out of my week to promote the language, and help people learn it off my own back.

It's nothing to do with cultural elitism.

getz

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

USA*, Canada*, Australia*, Jamaica, Hawaii, Haiti, Brazil
to name a few!

*increased population of non natives but native language is spoken less by newest generations of original inhabitants

Scotland also has a language thats very like Irish, I can understand it a bit

i am english in my 70 years i have yet to hear a scotsman speaking gaelic in the street,and in all my travels around ireland [and i am there every year ] i have only heard some one irishman talking irish in the street,in north wales you will hear welsh spoken a lot,never in south wales, i have never heard cornish spoken or even cumbric[except local a cumbrian farmers who still counts sheep in it], most of the celtic languages seem to be more for cultural reasons than the every day working languages

dlofnep

getz wrote: »

i am english in my 70 years i have yet to hear a scotsman speaking gaelic in the street

I'm going to assume you haven't been to the Hebrides then.

getz wrote: »

and in all my travels around ireland [and i am there every year ] i have only heard some one irishman talking irish in the street

How many gaeltachtaí have you visited?

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

But yet - it didn't help you understand that all languages take loan words from other languages. It reminds me of a post on here a few months back in a similar thread, where a user poked fun at the Irish language taking a loan word - calling a television "telefís". And judging by your post - I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't know where tele & vision come from.

+1 though Irish can have that fundi French thing where they dont like to use an "english" word and make up an Irish one. Sometimes with ironic results. Car is a classic. Gluastain(sp?)rather than Carr and some prefer the former as its sounds more "Irish". The joke is Carr is an old Celtic word for a wheeled vehicle. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/car Latin. english etc nicked that one.

Its natural for a language to nick or otherwise appropriate other words. One of the reasons for the worldwide success of english is that it does this really really well and makes local words its own. You dont have a word for a single storied house? Nick an Indian word bungalow. Dont have a word for tiny pieces? Nick an Irish word smithereens(there's a few of those irish word in english; Galore, bog, slob, boreen and whiskey*. AFAIR trouser is an olde Irish word?). Its very scalable. It doesnt have an intrinsic need to preserve itself nowadays. Any language that becomes precious is doomed to fail sooner or later.





* I like how spellcheck which is american english insists that whiskey with an E is the correct spelling. Feck off Scotland!

dlofnep

Of course. I say gluaisteán simple because that's what I was taught when I went to school. Although, I wouldn't raise an eyebrow at hearing carr either. I guess for me, it's just what I'm accustomed to saying.

getz

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm going to assume you haven't been to the Hebrides then.



How many gaeltachtaí have you visited?

hebrides ? why would anyone go there ?its full of sheep,gaeltachtai ?i dont even know what that is,but there is very little of ireland i havent been to,the place i heard irish spoken was clifton on the west coast

owenc

getz wrote: »

hebrides ? why would anyone go there ?its full of sheep,gaeltachtai ?i dont even know what that is,but there is very little of ireland i havent been to,the place i heard irish spoken was clifton on the west coast

what did it sound like out of intrest?

El Siglo

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody said you did.

Well everyone was stating their 'background' so to speak in relation to Irish, that's what I was doing, no need to be pedantic about it.

I thought maths was taught quite well. If you feel that there's something wrong with it, then by all means - push for reform. I'm not going to argue with you.

Yes, it's taught so well that we're getting an increase in the failure rate year after year, and that the ones that do pass either fall out of maths entirely or they're poorly equipped for third level. Seriously, maths isn't taught well by any stretch of the imagination. The curriculum is outdated along with the methods, it's taught like a 'dead language', doing maths for the sake of maths, which isn't how maths should be done, unless you're John Nash or something.

That depends on the person. Irish is going to be more useful to someone involved in the Irish language industry than maths is. Maths is going to be more useful for someone involved in IT or Science orientated industries. Maths on a wider scale is obviously more useful in the work-place. Nobody is trying to dispute that. But you're trying to create a scenario that only allows someone to choose one subject over the other - and that clearly does not, or will not exist.

I'm saying is, that maths has more uses that go beyond the scope of IT and Science. You could be a barrister and if you were good at maths, arguing a case would be absolutely piss. Just an example, maths is the heart of a logical argument, beautifully constructed it can be highly effective!:D
Maths isn't just useful in the work place, it's useful in nearly every academic discipline. It's near next to impossible to escape it, the same can't be said for Irish. That's reason enough, if the language was going to grow, it would have and should have grown by now. It's sad to think the Israelis were able to introduce Hebrew, a language that in the 1940s was completely dead and had almost been replaced by Yiddish as a spoken language, now look at the Israel. Irish hasn't grown by any stretch of the imagination, it's going to continue to decline. I don't like to see a language go much the same that I don't like to see Panda bears go, but that's the situation we're faced with.

I'd say that's more of an inferiority complex than anyone being a cultural elitist. I'm certainly not a cultural elitist. I just like the Irish language, and if I was truly a cultural elitest - I would haven't taken time out of my week to promote the language, and help people learn it off my own back.

It's nothing to do with cultural elitism.

And I didn't say you were a cultural elitist? My experience of some Irish speakers, going to school, college etc... has been that because they speak Irish, they're some how 'more' Irish than me. I'm not the only one that thinks this, it's not an inferiority complex or an indictment on my linguistic abilities. I just don't like the idea that speaking a language or ascribing to a particular cultural norm should make one more 'Irish' than others. That kind of ideology died with DeValera and that's where it should stay.

Rant over, tá tuirseach orm!:D

dlofnep

getz wrote: »

hebrides ? why would anyone go there ?its full of sheep,

You made the claim that you've never heard Scottish Gaelic being spoken. But yet, you've never visited the strongest Gaelic speaking region in Scotland - So it would seem natural to me that that is why you haven't heard it.

getz wrote: »

gaeltachtai ?i dont even know what that is,but there is very little of ireland i havent been to,the place i heard irish spoken was clifton on the west coast

A gaeltacht is an Irish speaking region in Ireland. Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Galway, Meath, Mayo and Donegal all have Gaeltacht regions. The Gaeltacht population combined is near 100,000 people.

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

You made the claim that you've never heard Scottish Gaelic being spoken. But yet, you've never visited the strongest Gaelic speaking region in Scotland - So it would seem natural to me that that is why you haven't heard it.


A gaeltacht is an Irish speaking region in Ireland. Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Galway, Meath, Mayo and Donegal all have Gaeltacht regions. The Gaeltacht population combined is near 100,000 people.

I dont think youd find very many people speaking it well.. they would just do that in school as a hobby..

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm going to assume you haven't been to the Hebrides then.



How many gaeltachtaí have you visited?

Funny enough my experience would be similar enough to Getz'. Being of a fishing persuasion Ive traveled a fair bit in gaeltacht areas in my life. Actually up to about 8 years ago, a lot. Also been to the Hebrides and I've heard Irish spoken on one maybe two occasions. Never heard it in Scotland(though in fairness that was only a few trips). Ive heard more Irish spoken in dublin pubs, but even there fingers of one hand time. Maybe its different now, but I reckon there are 40 year olds out there who never heard Irish spoken outside a classroom. The difference between here and say the basque region is striking. You hear the language all the time. You will hear more basque and see it being used in a single day, than you would Irish in a decade here. And if you think we had it bad, they've had it very bad until very recently. Basque in spain was outlawed under Franco and speakers were even imprisoned, yet we've had nearly 100 years of Irish promotion and as a fluent everyday language it doesnt come within sniffing distance. The former soviet states are good examples too. Russian was the official language, yet when the wall came down the local languages jumped back to full fluency and russian is in the past.