Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

Run_to_da_hills

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

More like very effective sabotage.

Deliberate sabotage :mad:

dowlingm

I reject the characterisation of sabotage. The reality is that IE is operating to principles which do not maximise the built infrastructure of the country and as it stands are not obliged to. They are operating to commercial principles to minimise the subsidy from DofT. This reminds me of the people who "calculate" the environmental benefits of freight rail in monetary terms but neglect the fact that if IE aren't paid a subsidy by the government who are the supposed beneficiaries they don't see that on their balance sheets.

Only if the infrastructure is taken out of their hands can they be relieved of the responsibility for substantially expensive works from which they currently make no money. For instance, why is the Broadstone alignment still in IE hands? The moment the government decided that RPA was going to get it IE should have demanded to have RPA take it off their hands for fair financial consideration if only to relieve them of responsibility for bridges on the line.

Cookie_Monster

But who would want to take over mgt of the lines? If the NRA were to take it over presumably they would require a survey of every sigle metre of line done before being willing to do that. Can you imagine what would be revealed from that kind of survey? I imagine IE are sitting are quite a bit of dodgy areas, Malahide & the investigation proved that.

The expense involved in fixing all the inevitable issues would probably be astronomical

Judgement Day

lord lucan wrote: »

Anyone fancy a spin over the DSE? How about the soon to be closed South Wexford and over to Waterford? Roll on May 7th.:)

http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/downloads/mayrailtour/2010_dalriada_southwexford.pdf

Funny how the Church has triumphed over the pagan English ITG.

patrickbrophy18

There are a number of flaws with the way in which Waterford Station is accessed. For a start, there is a huge lack of feeder buses from areas such as Dunmore East, Tramore and more importantly New Ross to the station. Also, there should be a radial Waterford City bus system in operation. The desired effect would be turning Waterford Station into a hub. For the sake of co-ordination, the arrival of these buses would be tied in with the departure and arrival of Intercity trains and the one Commuter train each way to Rosslare Europort. Ideally, there should be a continues track system in place at Rosslare Strand which would enable Intercity trains coming from Dublin Connolly to turn South West towards Waterford without having to reverse onto a seperate line as is currently the case. Consequently, Waterford people would have two options for getting to Dublin: Waterford - Dublin Heuston and; Waterford - Dublin Connolly. Rosslare Europort could then become the terminus for a Rosslare Europort - Limerick Junction Commuter service. Essentially, Rosslare Strand would become an interchange hub where people from Limerick would be given a third mode of getting to Dublin albiet with an interchange at Rosslare Strand. Here is where the ideals end.

At the moment, the population of the intermediate section between Rosslare Strand and Waterford is just over 4000 (according to wikipedia) which would cripple the viablility of train services on this section. The poor timing of the two services dosn't do this rather minute consumer base any justice. I do think that this is down to pure laziness where staff are concerned. Nevertheless, the population is very minimal. Ergo, if the residents of these towns want the rail service to survive, they would have to come up with an incentive to generate more passengers on this line. Such incentives could include but are not limited to large scale commercial development, possible tourist attractions such as theme parks, large scale accomodation for Waterford IT students or other re-enhancement methods. As a rail enthusiast, I am aware that a two car 2700 Alstom Commuter DMU operates the limited run of a service between Rosslare Europort and Waterford. However, if services are indeed to cease operations, I would strongly encourge Irish Rail not to dismantle the line and to maintain it so that if the aforementioned re-enhancement methods were to be adopted that passengers services could resume operations. From history, they should learn that dismantling lines such as the Western Rail Corridor can inevitably result in a very costly reconstruction project in the future. It is at times like this where tax payers money is being wasted on a reconstruction project which could have been avoided by regular maintanance.

JHMEG

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Also, there should be a radial Waterford City bus system in operation. The desired effect would be turning Waterford Station into a hub.

This was the case up until the new bus station opened down the quays on the other side of the river, about 8 years ago, completely disconnecting bus and train services in Waterford.

Judgement Day

PatrickBrophy - agree with most of your points and as I already mentioned any properly thought-out Transport 21 Plan would have included the restoration of the avoiding line/direct curve linking the Dublin/Rosslare line to the Waterford/Rosslare line.
The removal of services on the Waterford/Rosslare line is farcical especially when seen in conjunction with the scheme for FREE rail travel for OAP visitors recently announced by our 'beloved leader'!



See Biffo's proposal here in a press release from the Irish Hotels Federation dated 1/3/2010 - joined up thinking my hole. :mad:

Monday, 1st March 2010

HOTELIERS WELCOME FREE RAIL PRICE SCHEME FOR OVERSEAS VISITORS

Largely Untapped EU Market of Almost 80 Million People

The Irish Hotels Federation (IHF) today welcomed the confirmation by the Taoiseach, Mr Brian Cowen, TD, that details of a free rail-travel scheme for senior citizens visiting Ireland from abroad will be launched to coincide with St Patrick's Festival. Speaking at the IHF’s 72nd Annual Conference in Galway, Mr Matthew Ryan, President, states that the scheme means Ireland is now uniquely positioned to attract a largely untapped market of 9.5 million people over the age of 66 in the UK and a further 80 million people across the EU.

“Senior citizens have the time, discretionary income and inclination to travel and this initiative will allow Ireland to target this growing market more successfully. We are delighted that this measure – proposed at our annual conference last year – has been embraced and will become a reality for people visiting Ireland from abroad this year. The scheme will make Ireland a more attractive and accessible destination and is proof that, with determination and commitment, state bodies and tourism interests can align with a unified aim and bring innovative idea to fruition,” says Mr Ryan.

“The scheme, which will use the St Patrick’s Day festival as a global promotional platform, is an example of how creative initiatives targeted at key markets could deliver significant returns for Irish tourism. It gives us a much-needed competitive advantage when marketing Ireland abroad and provides a significant enticement to senior citizens who may be considering Ireland as a destination to visit in this year and in the future. Combined with the exceptional good value offered by Irish hotels and guesthouses, the initiative makes Ireland a compelling place to visit this year.

“Iarnród Éireann and Fáilte Ireland are to be congratulated for their support of this free travel initiative and agreement to roll out the new scheme. Effective promotion overseas needs to leverage this unique offering so as many potential visitors over 66 are persuaded to visit us this year. ” continues Mr Ryan.

The IHF also welcomed the Taoiseach’s commitment to resolving issues around granting tourist visas and his decision to ask the Department of Justice to look for practical solutions to deal with this important issue. Mr Ryan states that this will enhance Ireland’s tourism by removing barriers to entry and opening up new opportunities in leisure, business and language tourism.

Hungerford

The Tribune is now reporting that CIE have had talks with the Department of Transport regarding the potential closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh branch.

Reading between the lines, it seems that they will go ahead if CIE succeeds in shutting Waterford-Rosslare.

corktina

JHMEG wrote: »

This was the case up until the new bus station opened down the quays on the other side of the river, about 8 years ago, completely disconnecting bus and train services in Waterford.

rail is ham-strung with its station on the wrong side of the river , bus services need not be similarly disadvantaged just to create a hub when most of their passengers will come from the city and its suburbs NOT the Railway Station. A shuttle bus (or a taxi) to the bus station would handle the very small numbers wishing to transfer from rail to bus and vice versa.

foggy_lad

JHMEG wrote: »

This was the case up until the new bus station opened down the quays on the other side of the river, about 8 years ago, completely disconnecting bus and train services in Waterford.

the bus station in waterford is in a terrible position! bussess pulling in and out of heavy traffic all day and having to cross the busy quay to head to dublin wexford etc. there is plenty of unused irish rail land around the train station that could be used to make a goo bus station which would exit onto the roundabout like traffic from the train station already does.

JHMEG

corktina wrote: »

rail is ham-strung with its station on the wrong side of the river , bus services need not be similarly disadvantaged just to create a hub when most of their passengers will come from the city and its suburbs NOT the Railway Station. A shuttle bus (or a taxi) to the bus station would handle the very small numbers wishing to transfer from rail to bus and vice versa.

I lived in Waterford when the bus station was part of the train station and it lead to a lot of seamless switchover between bus and rail, especially for people travelling on to Dungarvan and other towns in West Waterford. All those buses would travel down the quay and out the Manor, or up Military Rd, so the city was well served.

A lot of people (who could afford it!) travelled by train from Dublin to avoid that awful road through counties Carlow and Kilkenny, and then carried on their journey via bus. Bear in mind the train station is at the most easterly end of the county.

What they've done by moving the bus station down the quay (which was already a busy pick-up point) is just disconnect the train and bus services. Nothing has improved.

Family members that used to travel by train/bus to West Waterford now either arrange lifts from Waterford or Cork stations. The bus would have been de facto before, but now is rarely used.

Shayman

Just another example of the blatant damage done by the Politicians of all parties to this country. I say all because we have a two ruling parties who are systematically tearing the country apart and we have oppositionparties who are sitting back doing NOTHING about it.

Judgement Day

Brendan Howlin raised the South Wexford line in the Dail on the 9th March and here is a link for it: http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2010-03-09.609.0

Hardly worth reading as the cretin Dempsey left one of his minions to trot out the usual 'it's an operational matter for CIE' ****e! :mad::mad:

The Greens are committed to keeping the railways open and the only thing left to do - if you care - is to get off your arses and email Ciaran Cuffe (the Greens Transport Spokesman) here: Ciaran.Cuffe@Oireachtas.ie

I already have and I can do more than point you at him.

patrickbrophy18

I was just on the Rail Users Ireland website and thought that y'all should have a look at this:
http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2010&no=2.html.

In the article, it mentions that a service between Galway and Rosslare Europort should be 2 hourly.

lord lucan

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I was just on the Rail Users Ireland website and thought that y'all should have a look at this:
http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.php?year=2010&no=2.html.

In the article, it mentions that a service between Galway and Rosslare Europort should be 2 hourly.

Noble aspirations but it would appear IE have made their decision and won't back down. Unless the media,both print and tv jump on this story i can see nothing but a weed spraying train trundling along the South Wexford in a few months.

corktina

jeez how long would it take to go from Rosslare to Galway via the WRC? Even with no changes, this would be a marathon journey

lord lucan

corktina wrote: »

jeez how long would it take to go from Rosslare to Galway via the WRC? Even with no changes, this would be a marathon journey

And on a 29000!!:eek::eek:

hardybuck

Sadly this is just another example of Government apathy to the region, and Waterford in particular. There is no train from Waterford to Cork, Limerick or Galway. What other developed coutry would have no rail links operating between it's cities!

Limerick Junction is a perfect example of all that is wrong. Clonmel now has a few major pharmaceutical plats and lots of people commuting from Limerick and Waterford to work there. The finished produce also needs to be exported via sea or air. CIE make it impossile for anyone to commute or for materials to be on the the line as there is a rediciously long delay at Limerick Juction. The whole thing is a total farce.

invinciblePRSTV

As i understand it, the Waterford - Rosslare line's main purpose in years gone by was to facilitate Beet transport and connect to Rosslare port? seeing as both of these activities have either gone or are in terminal decline, and with the population profile of the area limited, whats the point in keeping a little used line open?.

Bad as Irish Rail are and how public transport needs to be shaken up in this country i still can't see what conditions would allow this line achieve an enormous increase in patronage as to make it a viable operation.

Hungerford

lord lucan wrote: »

Unless the media,both print and tv jump on this story i can see nothing but a weed spraying train trundling along the South Wexford in a few months.

Speaking of the media, here's a link to the Tribune story from today:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/mar/14/rail-closure-plans-set-ff-and-greens-on-collision-/

As I suspected there's a lot more at stake than just the South Wexford:

The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.


These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".

alpha2zulu

From the same site.
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/mar/14/rail-closure-plans-set-ff-and-greens-on-collision-/

The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.

I find this very ironic given that within the past few weeks IE have completed work on relaying a section of it in South Kilkenny with welded rail and new ballast where formerly there was jointed track. Its not the same as painting up new stations ahead of closures....its worse!

The tragedy about Waterford-Limerick is that with advertising, a 50mph timetable, removing the rediculous length lay overs in Limerick Junction,and a Sunday evening service, the potential passenger numbers would no doubt be greater than what the WRC will get because:
1. Unlike the WRC which has the M18 to contend with, the Waterford-Limerick road is largely in an awful state.
2. Literally thousands of students travel to college in Waterford from all over Tipperary, Limerick and even as far as Galway every week.
3. Current fares are actually much cheaper than the bus. Used the service as far as Clonmel a few months back and was only charged 6.50 day return from Waterford despite the website indicating a higher fare...
4. A vast majority of track as far as Clonmel at least seemed to be CWR.
5. Waterford, Clonmel, and Limerick being very large population centres along the route.

patrickbrophy18

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

As i understand it, the Waterford - Rosslare line's main purpose in years gone by was to facilitate Beet transport and connect to Rosslare port? seeing as both of these activities have either gone or are in terminal decline, and with the population profile of the area limited, whats the point in keeping a little used line open?.

Bad as Irish Rail are and how public transport needs to be shaken up in this country i still can't see what conditions would allow this line achieve an enormous increase in patronage as to make it a viable operation.

I think there are too many people in this country with unimaginative opinions such as this. There is a huge amount of unfulfilled potential that exists on the entire stretch of track from Galway to Rosslare. The fact that Rosslare Harbour lies at the very end of this rail corridor opens up a wealth of trading possibilities which could ease the strain on freight traffic in Dublin port. Not to mention, a huge amount of tourist potential as well. For example, passengers getting off a ferry at Rosslare Harbour could catch a train up to Waterford and get a potentially very frequent feeder bus to Tramore which from what I can gather is crying out for more of this type of business. Also, it is worth noting that a lot of the cities which surround this corridor with next to no changes in transport modes have some of the most popular colleges in the country. For instance, students from England or Wales travelling by ferry to Rosslare Harbour and heading to the likes of NUI Galway or NUI Cork are only one change away. Furthermore, if they happen to be studying in Limerick or Waterford IT's there is no need for a change.

As some of you might already know, I am from Dublin. From a non-biased stand point, I would like to say that not all businesses within this country revolve completely around Dublin. The completely farcicle way in which this potentially thriving infrastructure is being closed off to the public is a clear example of the complete lack of vision and customer care which a lot of influential Irish Rail representatives display. I also believe that laziness and poor work ethic is responsible for the said shortcomings. In the current economic climate, moves such as this by Irish Rail cause further damage to the broader Irish economy and also leaves the effected communities further disconnected from the rest of the country. At present, people wishing to go to Galway from Rosslare Harbour have to make at least two changes to get to Galway. Changing at Dublin for a 90 bus or Luas and changing again for a train to Galway. If there was a bi-hourly service to Galway from Rosslare Harbour as Rail Users Ireland suggest, it would also give those from Rosslare Harbour an alternate journey back home other than that which starts at Dublin Connolly. As long as the last train left either termini at 9 in the evening.

highlydebased

They really could not make it go anymore backwards if they tried.

If Dick whatever his name is got down off his anti-locomotive high horse and stopped getting turned on by Korean Enginnering and decided to actually promote and run these services properly they'd work fine. How they can be so narrow minded and lacking in a small bit of innovation is really beyond me. Then again, having innovation would not be an Irish thing to do....couldnt have that now.

Hungerford

The closures would have a pretty dramatic effect on the rail map of Ireland. I've got my crayons out to illustrate. Here is the network map as of the end of this month:



Here's the new shiny version envisaged by Zanu-FF and Uncle Dick:


Look how sparse the south of the state looks. [You can click for a larger version of each] :eek:

corktina

Use it or lose it.... noone wants to go by train outside the Inter City routes and commuter-land. Everyone wants to go by car

And as for students coming over by ferry and then taking the train to College:rolleyes: Far cheaper quicker and more conveniant to fly.

If all this potential was out there, surely the existing trains would be packed.

Hungerford

corktina wrote: »

If all this potential was out there, surely the existing trains would be packed.

You obviously haven't seen the current timetable. Rosslare-Waterford: 1 train missing peak periods naturally; Waterford - Limerick: featuring 40 minute stops at scenic Limerick Junction and the Nenagh branch is hardly better.

If I didn't believe so strongly in Uncle Dick's railcar revolution, I would suggest that there was a pretty effective programme of sabotage there.

alpha2zulu

Hungerford wrote: »

Here's the new shiny version
Look how sparse the south of the state looks.:eek:

Or in PR speak, the new streamlined IE map, going forward..


The only thing though about the proposed south Wexford closure is so far the lack of noise that any of the regulars on the route seem to be making. If driving to Waterford in the mornings is such a trauma they should now be making noise about it to the national media. The local's if they are troubled by the closure need to now do everything in their power to get themselves noticed...and filling up the morning service with more than 20-30 people would be a start in the PR stakes.

On that Nationwide piece on the line a few weeks back, the ticket inspector mentioned that the train was full during the bad weather. All the same people are needed back now if attempts to block the closure are going to be anyway serious.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0312/rail1_av.html

corktina

ironic that the WRC is about to be opened and the Rosslare Strand line and Nenagh lines are about to be shut...cause and effect I should say.

invinciblePRSTV

corktina wrote: »

ironic that the WRC is about to be opened and the Rosslare Strand line and Nenagh lines are about to be shut...cause and effect I should say.

As much predicted in the WRC thread of old, IR have been mandated to cut costs and open an extra line in time of ever declining public finances.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I think there are too many people in this country with unimaginative opinions such as this.

Unimaginative?!?

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

There is a huge amount of unfulfilled potential that exists on the entire stretch of track from Galway to Rosslare. The fact that Rosslare Harbour lies at the very end of this rail corridor opens up a wealth of trading possibilities which could ease the strain on freight traffic in Dublin port. Not to mention, a huge amount of tourist potential as well. For example, passengers getting off a ferry at Rosslare Harbour could catch a train up to Waterford and get a potentially very frequent feeder bus to Tramore which from what I can gather is crying out for more of this type of business. Also, it is worth noting that a lot of the cities which surround this corridor with next to no changes in transport modes have some of the most popular colleges in the country. For instance, students from England or Wales travelling by ferry to Rosslare Harbour and heading to the likes of NUI Galway or NUI Cork are only one change away. Furthermore, if they happen to be studying in Limerick or Waterford IT's there is no need for a change.

As some of you might already know, I am from Dublin. From a non-biased stand point, I would like to say that not all businesses within this country revolve completely around Dublin. The completely farcicle way in which this potentially thriving infrastructure is being closed off to the public is a clear example of the complete lack of vision and customer care which a lot of influential Irish Rail representatives display. I also believe that laziness and poor work ethic is responsible for the said shortcomings. In the current economic climate, moves such as this by Irish Rail cause further damage to the broader Irish economy and also leaves the effected communities further disconnected from the rest of the country. At present, people wishing to go to Galway from Rosslare Harbour have to make at least two changes to get to Galway. Changing at Dublin for a 90 bus or Luas and changing again for a train to Galway. If there was a bi-hourly service to Galway from Rosslare Harbour as Rail Users Ireland suggest, it would also give those from Rosslare Harbour an alternate journey back home other than that which starts at Dublin Connolly. As long as the last train left either termini at 9 in the evening.

Your 400 word rehash of coulds and shoulds along with your own personal transport peeves is all well and good, but i'm wondering is there anything more practical could be done with the line without hypothesising that a sudden massive expansion in tourists, freight, alternative Dub - Waterford trains and students into a port seemingly in long term decline will save the line and its 4 passengers from the chop in a few months time?.

And if this doesn't happen then do we just let it remain open anyway for sentimental reasons?

And where exactly do IR cut costs? as elaborated upon up above they are working with a reduced subvention and a new line to operate, what gets cut instead chief? and how much do your big idea's cost?.

Southsider1

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

And where exactly do IR cut costs? as elaborated upon up above they are working with a reduced subvention and a new line to operate, what gets cut instead chief? and how much do your big idea's cost?.

With respect, it is not our place to work out where IE should make their savings. The management are paid substantial sums to do that. At the end of the day, they are a rail company and as such should be maximising use of their assets not diminishing them. And yes, few people use the line and, as I'm sure you've read above, more people would use it if:
A. the train times were more user friendly
B. the train departed Wexford Town (Pop 18,000) instead of Rosslare (Pop 1200)
C. the train went all the way to Limerick and joined the line to Galway.

It may also have helped if freight trains could run into the port at Rosslare but, hey, the geniuses at CIE ripped up the last 2 km of track going to into the port.

Simple business sense should prevail, not rocket science. In any other business, if an asset is underperforming, you make EVERY effort to regenerate it before disposing of it.