[US/IRL] 6x07 - "Dr. Linus" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

mewso

6

BastardPrince wrote: »

is that not the whole point?

I'm not sure what you mean. The idea seems to be if you know anything about the island you explain none of it just get people to do things on blind faith. Not a good message imo.

opinion guy

I reckon Desmond is the one who replaces Jacob. He's the only one without a story in the other timeline. Yes he appeared on the plane, but then mysteriously dissappeared again. I reckon thats him using a 'Jacob" ability.

Sad Professor

7

mewso wrote: »

Also I'm starting to worry about the whole Jacob thing. This may have been discussed already but he is being painted as the good guy who gets people to do things without telling them anything and basically being pretty much an asshole. This is basically God and the blind faith he demands from believers which pretty much sucks assballs if the moral here in the end is that Jacob couldn't save the day without getting his candidates to do things without telling them anything. Who makes these crazy rules?

Which is a perfectly legitimate point of view. I think the writers want us to be divided between faith and reason, between Jacob and MIB.

Faith vs reason has been an huge theme in the show. Jack and Locke argued over it on the way to the hatch in season 1. Locke believed believed that they crashed on the island for a purpose. He didn't know what that purpose was, but he believed there was one and that was enough for him. It wasn't for Jack. Hence, man of science, man of faith.

This conflict between faith and reason was most acute in season 2 when the characters had to press a button every 108 minutes or else... well they didn't know. That was the point - it was a leap of faith. It tested all of them and even Locke started to believe it was all a big experiment.

Now it turns out there are two immortal figures fighting over the island. Jacob, who claims to have a plan and purpose for everyone, but they can't be told what it is, they have to discover it for themselves - which of course they won't do unless they have faith. And MIB, who (very reasonably) claims that Jacob is a con man who wastes lives and that it's just a "damn island" and they should leave it.

What the ultimate resolution of all this is I'm not sure. I do think Jacob is the good guy, but the writers are still giving a lot of time to MIB's viewpoint, and it sounds very reasonable. And as in previous seasons, we are still arguing over whether faith or reason is right.

mewso

6

Sad Professor wrote: »

And as in previous seasons, we are still arguing over whether faith or reason is right.

Well I hope you mean in terms of Lost as it's no contest imo in RL but I think what annoys me is that the end result in Lost will probably be that faith is right.

Dempsey

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

Which is a perfectly legitimate point of view. I think the writers want us to be divided between faith and reason, between Jacob and MIB.

Faith vs reason has been an huge theme in the show. Jack and Locke argued over it on the way to the hatch in season 1. Locke believed believed that they crashed on the island for a purpose. He didn't know what that purpose was, but he believed there was one and that was enough for him. It wasn't for Jack. Hence, man of science, man of faith.

This conflict between faith and reason was most acute in season 2 when the characters had to press a button every 108 minutes or else... well they didn't know. That was the point - it was a leap of faith. It tested all of them and even Locke started to believe it was all a big experiment.

Now it turns out there are two immortal figures fighting over the island. Jacob, who claims to have a plan and purpose for everyone, but they can't be told what it is, they have to discover it for themselves - which of course they won't do unless they have faith. And MIB, who (very reasonably) claims that Jacob is a con man who wastes lives and that it's just a "damn island" and they should leave it.

What the ultimate resolution of all this is I'm not sure. I do think Jacob is the good guy, but the writers are still giving a lot of time to MIB's viewpoint, and it sounds very reasonable. And as in previous seasons, we are still arguing over whether faith or reason is right.

Well the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist...

MiB is playing people, e.g. promising Shannon back to Sayid, promising to get Sawyer off the island, and he tries to justify himself saying its just a "damn island". I reckon he knows more than this and we'll be drip fed what that is for the next 10 episodes

He's certainly has all the hallmarks of the devil

The whole man of faith, man of science theme is a very good one imo and I hope the writers will get the ending, whatever that is, right.

My biggest fear is that they have "run out of time" and the ending is rushed like an episode of Law & Order. They arent going to get everyone liking the ending but I just hope its one that does the show just and not just because it scores well with the target audience.

I know its a bad example, but the only one I can think of at the moment, remember when they send the film "Dodgeball" back to the soundstage because the test audience wanted a happy ending. The director didnt want to do it and was held to his contract to do the ending that the studio wanted.

/rant

jhegarty

Dempsey wrote: »

MiB is playing people, e.g. promising Shannon back to Sayid, promising to get Sawyer off the island, and he tries to justify himself saying its just a "damn island".

I presume it was Nadia , and not Shannon.

Both these promises would come though if the time lines are merged , or the island one erased.

Mr.Nice Guy

8

I am not convinced it will come down to a simple good guy vs bad guy scenario. I've said before this season that I think the way Jacob has sacrificed certain people and prioritised the health of others has been difficult to defend morally.

It's akin to the way people sacrifice pieces on a chess board and imo ties in to the idea of it being some sort of game of chance.

Boone, the people at the Temple etc - 'the sacrifice that the Island demanded'.

Dempsey

7

jhegarty wrote: »

I presume it was Nadia , and not Shannon.

Both these promises would come though if the time lines are merged , or the island one erased.

Pretty sure that Sayid said that the only thing he loved died on the island, thats why I thought Shannon....

I agree Mr.Nice Guy, its going to be one shade of grey vs another shade of grey.

Personally, I'm a man of science no matter what way this show ends :pac:

DonkeyStyle \o/

6

Dempsey wrote: »

Pretty sure that Sayid said that the only thing he loved died on the island, thats why I thought Shannon....

He said "in my arms" afaicr

opinion guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Pretty sure that Sayid said that the only thing he loved died on the island, thats why I thought Shannon....

Nope he said died in his arms

Linguo

Wicknight wrote: »

Unless the writers are being very clever I think they are getting a bit muddled in the alternate time line.

If the Losties never crash they never time travel, and Faraday never defuses the atomic bomb in the 50s

Initially I thought that was what was going to cause the island to sink.

But then the Dharma institute have build Otherville, you see it in the first episode and Ben's dad makes reference to living on the island.

So maybe what the writers are going for is that if the Losties never crash they never time travel and never shoot Ben, he is never taken to the temple by Richard and never comes out "different" or what ever Richard said.

I don't know, to be honest I'm some what losing faith in the writers at this point. The more I watch this season the more I think Lost was originally a two possibly three season idea stretched out over six seasons by sub plots that were not really thought through as much as the main plot.

We are nearly half way through and really have learnt very little. I don't think for example that knowing that the smoke monster is the man in black is classified as an answer, since we don't know what the man in black is or how he turns into a smoke monster (or anything about the smoke monster's properties such as the whispering) and the man in black was only introduced a few episodes ago. It is hardly an answer

Thinks like the little we learn about Richard are not answers either, just confirmations. We know Richard doesn't age, we have known that for ages. We know Richard doesn't age because of Jacob, we have known that for ages too. We had a pretty good idea Richard was on the Black Rock, we have suspected that for a good while and had pretty much confirmation of it in episode 1 of this season when the MIB mentions the chains to Richard.

So again, what are we actually learning? Very little. I can't help feeling that is because there is actually very little behind all this, we aren't having answer after answer because the writers don't have answer after answer.

I hope I'm wrong, time will tell.

I have to agree with this, first couple of seasons were dynamite but at this stage I feel like they can't really make the last season as amazing as it should be because it was never meant to run this long in the first place. Ben made the episode because he's a very good actor, hope the last episodes can be as interesting as this one was and really finish on a high

Dempsey

7

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

He said "in my arms" afaicr

opinion guy wrote: »

Nope he said died in his arms

You're both right, but when he said that, I thought of Shannon not Nadia.

The devil/MiB will probably grant either wish though... :P

Sad Professor

7

mewso wrote: »

Well I hope you mean in terms of Lost as it's no contest imo in RL

I'm not so sure. I'm not religious, but faith isn't just religion anyway. There's an argument that the Enlightenment threw the baby out with the bathwater and replaced religious dogma with a dogma of its own. A lot of what gets passed as "reasonable" in the world today has a far from positive effect on people's lives. There's nothing wrong with a bit of magic and mystery in the world. Which is why I don't mind if somethings remain mysterious at the end of the show.

the end result in Lost will probably be that faith is right.

Most likely. But then again, if Jacob and MIB do represent faith and reason, perhaps as suggested by the scales in 6x03 there needs to be a balance.

Dempsey wrote:

I agree Mr.Nice Guy, its going to be one shade of grey vs another shade of grey.

I dunno, the writers are big Stephen King fans. And King doesn't really do shades of grey.

Robin85

Dempsey wrote: »

You're both right, but when he said that, I thought of Shannon not Nadia.

I think you may have unwittingly solved a mystery.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/cult/s10/lost/news/a203824/lost-castaway-returns-for-final-season.html

:eek:

A Neurotic

6

Robin85 wrote: »

I think you may have unwittingly solved a mystery.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/cult/s10/lost/news/a203824/lost-castaway-returns-for-final-season.html

:eek:

How many dead characters have appeared in flash-sideways-es now? Can't be sure...

tony1kenobi

Dempsey wrote: »

You're both right, but when he said that, I thought of Shannon not Nadia.

The devil/MiB will probably grant either wish though... :P

If he grants both I call dibs on playing Sayid in the spin off....I'll bring the gee-tar and wah wah......

cooker3

Dempsey wrote: »

They arent going to get everyone liking the ending but I just hope its one that does the show just and not just because it scores well with the target audience.

I must say that is 1 thing I am not worried about. For a major US network TV show, they have never been afraid to push out the boat and do comparatively risky stuff, I say risky in terms of the general rule that sci-fi = cancelled.

When ABC gave them the end-date; they basically gave them the freedom to do what they want. I am sure whatever the ending will be, it's what the writers wanted it to be.

mewso

6

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm not so sure. I'm not religious, but faith isn't just religion anyway. There's an argument that the Enlightenment threw the baby out with the bathwater and replaced religious dogma with a dogma of its own. A lot of what gets passed as "reasonable" in the world today has a far from positive effect on people's lives. There's nothing wrong with a bit of magic and mystery in the world. Which is why I don't mind if somethings remain mysterious at the end of the show.

Yeah but thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about for example killing your first born because a higher power says you must for the greater good kind of stuff. It's the doing things on faith not the having faith that bothers me in any walk of life and the possibility that Lost will say those who blindly did or let terrible things happen because Jacob told them to are the "winners" or the better people. Best ending would be if both of these godly figures got their comeuppance.

opinion guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Best ending would be if both of these godly figures got their comeuppance.

+1

Dempsey

7

cooker3 wrote: »

I must say that is 1 thing I am not worried about. For a major US network TV show, they have never been afraid to push out the boat and do comparatively risky stuff, I say risky in terms of the general rule that sci-fi = cancelled.

When ABC gave them the end-date; they basically gave them the freedom to do what they want. I am sure whatever the ending will be, it's what the writers wanted it to be.

Disney, ABC's parent company sacked Lloyd Braun for green lighting the pilot of Lost.

Sherifu

7

Finally got time to watch it today.

The dynamite scene and final scene were kick ass. Also enjoyed the flash forwards this week.

opinion guy

Best line was

should we try another stick ?

cooker3

Dempsey wrote: »

Disney, ABC's parent company sacked Lloyd Braun for green lighting the pilot of Lost.

So what? They allowed the show to go on and interference has gone down. Remember in season 1 they cut a line out of Solitary when Sayid asked Rousseau what she was studying and she replied time.
While in season 5 the whole season was about time travel.
I can't imagine them changing anything anymore no matter how crazy.

Sad Professor

7

Btw - The Stand references keep building up this season. UnLocke freeing Ben from his shackle is very similar to how Flagg frees Lloyd from prison in The Stand. Lloyd goes on to become Flagg's right hand man. A choice which seemed open to Ben in this episode.

uncleoswald

6

mewso wrote: »

Yeah but thats not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about for example killing your first born because a higher power says you must for the greater good kind of stuff. It's the doing things on faith not the having faith that bothers me in any walk of life and the possibility that Lost will say those who blindly did or let terrible things happen because Jacob told them to are the "winners" or the better people. Best ending would be if both of these godly figures got their comeuppance.

This bothers me too. Its like the fact that everyone still loved Locke even though on a matter of faith he murdered Naomi in cold blood and did his best to keep everyone on the island against their will. And I've never felt that he was judged as in the wrong in this.

And unfortunately it now seems Jack is going the same faith route and apparently we are meant to side with him on this. I want to route for Jacob and Co. but at least give me a reason to. The good and bad side is so muddled you have fans who for some reason think MiB is still the good guy.

opinion guy

Sad Professor wrote: »

Btw - The Stand references keep building up this season. UnLocke freeing Ben from his shackle is very similar to how Flagg frees Lloyd from prison in The Stand. Lloyd goes on to become Flagg's right hand man. A choice which seemed open to Ben in this episode.

What is this 'The Stand" thing you all keep going on about ?

uncleoswald wrote: »

The good and bad side is so muddled you have fans who for some reason think MiB is still the good guy.

I don't think MIB is the good guy......I just think they are both equally bad guys.

mewso

6

opinion guy wrote: »

What is this 'The Stand" thing you all keep going on about ?.

Good but not as good as the fans think Stephen King story - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108941/ - starts well and turns into a silly religious battle.

uncleoswald

6

opinion guy wrote: »

I don't think MIB is the good guy......I just think they are both equally bad guys.

I'd bet a lot of money by the end we will be meant to be routing for Team Jacob, whether or not we are is another matter. Why they haven't made it clear yet I have no idea, it makes it hard to care, this isn't The Sopranos.

Originally Posted by mewso
starts well and turns into a silly religious battle.

Uh oh....

Eoin

6

mewso wrote: »

Good but not as good as the fans think Stephen King story - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108941/ - starts well and turns into a silly religious battle.

You should at least link to the book, not the pretty crappy film.

Sad Professor

7

Yeah, the mini-series of The Stand was terrible. The book is brilliant (I prefer the original edition though). I wouldn't view it as depicting a religious battle. It's more of a classic good versus evil story which draws on the best parts of the bible for its inspiration.

There's a graphic novel series based on it running at the moment. It looks really good but I'll probably wait until it is available in a single volume before getting it.