[US/IRL] 6x07 - "Dr. Linus" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Dymo

6

I liked this episode, don't get me wrong, but I am starting to get frustrated. I am in the "we will get the answers and we should just enjoy the ride" camp, but this week left me a little cold. It was great episode, but what actually happened?

We learned about Richard. We saw some good character development with Ben. But plotwise...nothing actually happened. When there are so many big questions to be answers, having an episode where only one or two questions are answered is pretty frustrating, but I guess I may aswell stop thinking that this season was going to tie up all the ends and just realise that all will not be answered for the die hard fans.

Also this bumping into each other on the island is getting a bit ridiculous now, all they have to do is walk 20 meters and they meet some one else.

When did Hurley ever meet Richard, I've searched and can't find any evidence of them ever meeting each other on the island, I'm sure we can speculate they talk about other characters on the island but for Hurley to instantly recognise Richard, me thinks the writers are using poetic justice. (Hurley was not there when Sawyer talked to Richard on the bench)

Penn

7

I'm wondering about Richard and Hurley too

Sad Professor

7

Hurley doesn't recognise Richard. When Richard comes out of the jungle, Hurley stares at him like he doesn't know him. Then he asks Jack "do you trust that guy?"

There's a big gap between this scene and the latter conversation. Jack presumedly filled Hurley in about Richard on the way to the Black Rock. It's also possible Hurley had already heard about Alpert from Sawyer and the others back in 77.

Faith

8

Is it just me, or did the conversation that Ben and his dad have about being on the island years ago not indicate that the flashsideways are all the alternative timeline that would have taken place if Sayid had never shot young Ben?

If he'd never shot him, the others would never have saved him. By saving him, they put into motion everything that resulted in Oceanic 815 crashing. If Ben had never been shot, he would never have grown up to kill Jacob. Jacob would never have needed a replacement. He obviously knew he was going to die if he was sourcing replacements for decades. The Losties would never have crashed, or come back, or time traveled, and so on.

Psychedelic

9

I loved this episode. The dynamite scene with Jack and Richard was class, and marks a major turning point in Jack's character. Good reveal at the end with the sub and Widmore. Brilliant scenes with Ben, especially the one with Ilana, and I even enjoyed the flash sideways. Good reunion scene too with lovely music.

I thought Richard was going to explain how the Black Rock got there but alas we will have to wait for his episode to (hopefully) find out.

Sad Professor

7

Faith wrote: »

Is it just me, or did the conversation that Ben and his dad have about being on the island years ago not indicate that the flashsideways are all the alternative timeline that would have taken place if Sayid had never shot young Ben?

If he'd never shot him, the others would never have saved him. By saving him, they put into motion everything that resulted in Oceanic 815 crashing. If Ben had never been shot, he would never have grown up to kill Jacob. Jacob would never have needed a replacement. He obviously knew he was going to die if he was sourcing replacements for decades. The Losties would never have crashed, or come back, or time traveled, and so on.

Yeah, that's a good take on it. So maybe there was an instant domino effect from Juliet hitting the bomb. Or perhaps as others have speculated Juliet hitting the bomb wasn't the cause of the sideways at all. Instead, her setting of the bomb actually saved the island.

At the start of the season I dismissed the suggestion that this was one of a million different possible timelines, but perhaps it is in a way. MIB said it always ends the same. Jacob said, yeah, but it only ends once and everything in between is progress.

How about this: There's a repeating time-loop which ends the same way every time - the end of the world. Jacob is trying to stop it, so each time he chooses 6 different candidates, their purpose is to try and stop it. But each time they fail. Every time the world ends, the loop resets and everything starts again. Jacob picks another 6 candidates. On and on it goes.

The sideways-timeline is another loop in which Jacob picked a different set of candidates. The island is at the bottom of the ocean because they (not the Losties) failed.

Basically it's the Valenzetti Equation.

DonkeyStyle \o/

6

I think Sun is a candidate to replace Michael as the master of worn-out catchphrases. "I haf to fiiind my hus-band!".
We get it, shut uuuuup :mad:

Psychedelic

9

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I think Sun is a candidate to replace Michael as the master of worn-out catchphrases. "I haf to fiiind my hus-band!".
We get it, shut uuuuup :mad:

:pac:

Otacon

Is the fact that Lupidus was the original pilot an important fact? Seems strange to just throw that out there.

blue_steel

8

Gave it 9 out of 10. Highest rating of the season. Some good forward momentum to this episode. Everyone seems to be getting to where they are supposed to be. Loved seeing the Black Rock again, the nostalgic reunion on the beach and Widmore's appearance in the sub. But the highlight had to be Ben's redemption. The great thing about this show is that it was impossible to know whether he would choose good or evil. Edge of the seat scene.

Kiith

8

Emerson was fantastic yet again. Thank god they decided to keep Ben as a character, cause he is consistantly brilliant. Loved Jack in this episode as well. I've been a long time Jack supporter, and its nice to see him believing in himself again.

Also, loved the look he gave Ben at the end of the episode. Can't wait for them to have a chat, considering how different both of them were the last time they were together.

homerun_homer

8

Dempsey wrote: »

The big question with the alt timeline is what happened to the DHARMA intitiative and what changed Roger to care about Ben

Roger got sick and no doubt had to quit drink, re-evaluated his life and relationship with his son and bonds with him.
Lost is a show which at this stage you just have to fill in the gaps yourself and come up with your own conclusion about how things might have happened.

Faith wrote: »

Is it just me, or did the conversation that Ben and his dad have about being on the island years ago not indicate that the flashsideways are all the alternative timeline that would have taken place if Sayid had never shot young Ben?

If he'd never shot him, the others would never have saved him. By saving him, they put into motion everything that resulted in Oceanic 815 crashing. If Ben had never been shot, he would never have grown up to kill Jacob. Jacob would never have needed a replacement. He obviously knew he was going to die if he was sourcing replacements for decades. The Losties would never have crashed, or come back, or time traveled, and so on.

I don't think the others saving Ben is what gets the chain of events in motion to lead to the crash of Oceanic 815. Ben rejoined Dharma after being saved if 'Whatever happened happened" and there is nothing to say the bomb directly causes the island to sink in the 'alt timeline'. So there may be plenty of time for him to rejoin his dad as normal and end up leaving the island before it sinks, just like Ethan. The Others said he'd forget what happened so he may not have this in mind (Sayid shooting him in cold blood) in the alt version of events.

tok9

8

Actually i have one question.. How long has it been since Ajira 316 crashed on the island?

Just curious about the timelines between that and Widmore leaving the hospital after Desmond had been shot.

Anyone have a rough idea?

cooker3

tok9 wrote: »

Actually i have one question.. How long has it been since Ajira 316 crashed on the island?

Just curious about the timelines between that and Widmore leaving the hospital after Desmond had been shot.

Anyone have a rough idea?

It can't be that long. At a guess somewhere between a week and a fortnight.

Daysha

7

Michael Emerson is the best actor ever. That is all.

Zombrex

3

Unless the writers are being very clever I think they are getting a bit muddled in the alternate time line.

If the Losties never crash they never time travel, and Faraday never defuses the atomic bomb in the 50s

Initially I thought that was what was going to cause the island to sink.

But then the Dharma institute have build Otherville, you see it in the first episode and Ben's dad makes reference to living on the island.

So maybe what the writers are going for is that if the Losties never crash they never time travel and never shoot Ben, he is never taken to the temple by Richard and never comes out "different" or what ever Richard said.

I don't know, to be honest I'm some what losing faith in the writers at this point. The more I watch this season the more I think Lost was originally a two possibly three season idea stretched out over six seasons by sub plots that were not really thought through as much as the main plot.

We are nearly half way through and really have learnt very little. I don't think for example that knowing that the smoke monster is the man in black is classified as an answer, since we don't know what the man in black is or how he turns into a smoke monster (or anything about the smoke monster's properties such as the whispering) and the man in black was only introduced a few episodes ago. It is hardly an answer

Thinks like the little we learn about Richard are not answers either, just confirmations. We know Richard doesn't age, we have known that for ages. We know Richard doesn't age because of Jacob, we have known that for ages too. We had a pretty good idea Richard was on the Black Rock, we have suspected that for a good while and had pretty much confirmation of it in episode 1 of this season when the MIB mentions the chains to Richard.

So again, what are we actually learning? Very little. I can't help feeling that is because there is actually very little behind all this, we aren't having answer after answer because the writers don't have answer after answer.

I hope I'm wrong, time will tell.

tok9

8

cooker3 wrote: »

It can't be that long. At a guess somewhere between a week and a fortnight.

Ya was thinking something similar... it's going to be interesting finding out how he found the island so quickly and what side he is on.

Sad Professor

7

tok9 wrote: »

Actually i have one question.. How long has it been since Ajira 316 crashed on the island?

Just curious about the timelines between that and Widmore leaving the hospital after Desmond had been shot.

Anyone have a rough idea?

According to Lostpedia it is day 6 since Ajira landed on the island. As mentioned earlier though, they are off by at least 1 day, possibly more. So it's more like day 7/8.

According to that timeline, Widmore meeting Hawking outside the hospital happened the same day Ajira took off.

the_monkey

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

Hurley doesn't recognise Richard. When Richard comes out of the jungle, Hurley stares at him like he doesn't know him. Then he asks Jack "do you trust that guy?"

There's a big gap between this scene and the latter conversation. Jack presumedly filled Hurley in about Richard on the way to the Black Rock. It's also possible Hurley had already heard about Alpert from Sawyer and the others back in 77.

wishfull thinkin....

Sad Professor

7

the_monkey wrote: »

wishfull thinkin....

What is?

cooker3

homerun_homer wrote: »

Eagle eyed viewers would have spotted his name in the opening credits. I wish they didn't do this cause it would have been a nice surprise for me, whereas I was waiting the whole episode for him to appear.

Rookie error! I always cover the credits with my hand for the guest actors and for the first few episodes of each season I will do it for the main cast. 1 of the problems with religiously following a show is knowing every guest actors name. Most other shows I barely know who the main cast is.

Enjoyable episode. It wasn't the greatest Ben centric episode ever but it's still a step above most others. Quite honestly it could just show Emerson reading the newspaper for an hour and I would likely find it compelling.

Dempsey wrote: »

I find it AMAZING that the french woman in the alt timeline moves to America and just happens to relocate to the same suburb in the same city as Ben Linus. Not that time travel and people that dont die isnt far fetched but some things need to be anchored into the probable and realistic for this show to have the desired effect on the audience.

I think you're slightly missing the point. My reading of it is they are attempting to show that these peoples lives are interlinked no matter what. Destiny will find a way to make it happen.

I enjoyed the flash-sideways. I really liked how it mirrored what happened with Ben on the island and hell I always enjoy seeing Artz.

I really enjoyed the Black Rock scenes with Jack and Richard. Jack finally and willfully took over Locke's mantle when he set that dynamite off. No stronger way to demonstrate his new found faith in himself and the island. Excellent stuff.

Loved the re-union. It's was great to hear the Oceanic 6 music once again. 1 of Giacchino's best compositions for the show ever.

1 criticism; I am really not taken with Ilana, both the character and the actress. She seems to suffer from the 1 expression syndrome Juliet had during season 3. Hopefully we get her backstory (if they are actually do any this season)

Overall a 8, 8.5/10

the_monkey

7

Great episode .... Emerson is an amazing actor , as people have said ... thankfully they kept him on ....


Was thinking .. Jacob wanted Hurley to help a man get to the island - so
now I'm assuming this man is Widmore --- so Widmore & JAcob on the same side ????? --- this doesn't seem to make much sense since Ben
and Jacob were on the same side and Widmore was out to get Ben ??

Another thing, the Black Rock, you think Richard was a slave ??
or crew member, he was examing some chains so I'm thinking slave....
I hope we get more of a backstory on Richard and not just that ....

--EDIT yay , 100th Post !!!

Dempsey

7

I think you're slightly missing the point. My reading of it is they are attempting to show that these peoples lives are interlinked no matter what. Destiny will find a way to make it happen.

I was being cynical

the_monkey

7

Sad Professor wrote: »

What is?

That Hurley knew this from the missed dialogue --- let's be honest it's
probably a continuity error by the writers ... a small (so forgiveable) one...

cooker3

tok9 wrote: »

Ya was thinking something similar... it's going to be interesting finding out how he found the island so quickly and what side he is on.

I would assume that the flash which sent everyone from 77 to now would have done it.

Sad Professor

7

the_monkey wrote: »

That Hurley knew this from the missed dialogue --- let's be honest it's
probably a continuity error by the writers ... a small (so forgiveable) one...

Maybe, but it's not like Hurley showed immediate recognition of Alpert. There was a big gap and plenty of time for them to catch up. The writers just didn't bother showing it. I mean just 'cause we don't see the characters sleep, eat, sh*t, etc, doesn't mean they don't.

Oh and Jorge ad-libbed the "are you a vampire?" line to Richard. On the podcast (which was recorded the night before) he talks about how he's going to slip it in.

Wicknight wrote: »

Unless the writers are being very clever I think they are getting a bit muddled in the alternate time line.

I like the flash-sideways. But I admit I had hoped we would have gotten more about them at this point. Maybe when Desmond shows up, but tbh it looks like something we’ll have to wait until the finale to see resolved. My best hope is that there’s a “Through the Looking Glass”-style twist coming. Remember how everyone thought they were watching another boring Jack flashback and then Kate got out of the car? Greatest Mindf*ck ever! I’m not sure if the writers can pull a season-long version of that off, but I’m hopeful.

On the podcast, Emerson compared them to the connections between the real and fantasy worlds in the Wizard of Oz. Which is a cool way of looking at them imo.

If the Losties never crash they never time travel, and Faraday never defuses the atomic bomb in the 50s

Which is a paradox, yeah. But if these are indeed alternate timelines then the only way to explain them is to say they are connected at a certain point and share certain causal elements. Changing time always creates a paradox - there’s no exception. Last season’s time travel was good because it mostly avoided this kind of paradox.

Initially I thought that was what was going to cause the island to sink.

The bomb was never going to cause the island to sink. That was a silly overreaction people had to seeing the island underwater. It wasn't even a hydrogen bomb that went off. If the bomb had a role in the island sinking it was indirect, setting off a chain of events that would lead to the island being underwater in 2004.

cos!!

Anyone else feel sorry for ben at the end when he was in the backround of the reunion of the losties with no one to hug?:(

Anima

7

Was a good episode but nothing really happened. Theres far too much emphasis on the flashsideways that they have to be heading somewhere. I think theres gonna be a tectonic shift one episode soon when they're gonna flip everything around. Has to be.

Its typical Lost fashion though, you get lots of episodes with really nothing in them and then one episode with almost too much in it that it seems rushed. I hate that.

the_monkey

7

cos!! wrote: »

Anyone else feel sorry for ben at the end when he was in the backround of the reunion of the losties with no one to hug?:(

I did yes .... but lets not forget he murdered John Locke...

Mr.Nice Guy

8

Strong episode. Gave it a 9.

Most interestng thing that caught my ear, not sure if it was mentioned as I've only briefly looked at the thread, Richard told Hurley not to believe whatever Jacob said.

I know Ilana said MIB can't take on other forms now but is this an indication that perhaps in fact he can? Might Jacob be Fake-ob after all?

It was interesting that Ben was faced with the same dilemma, albeit in different circumstances, in both realities. I've never been a big fan of the character of Ben as I guess I've struggled to see the good in him that others seem to gravitate towards. He was more human in this episode though and I did find myself sympathising with his plight. As others have said it was a great acting performance from Michael Emerson.

Fitting too that we got a nice musical sequence from Giacchino near the end seeing as he's been in the news of late.

This is just a gut reaction here, and I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards Sun being the Kwon on Jacob's list. Seeing Sun be reunited with Jack made me think back to the episode Exodus from season 1 right before Jin went to leave on the raft:

JIN: I have to go because I'm going to save you. Stay with Jack. He'll keep you safe.

SUN: Who will keep you safe?

I'm thinking that this is perhaps a foreshadowing of future events (or what the writers would have us believe depending on your view ) and I can see Jin doing something heroic and selfless this season to save her life. Again I might be totally wrong as it's just an instinct I have.