Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

monument

As well as mentioned above re RPA looking at BRT, people will also likely leave (by will and by contracts ending) to work on projects elsewhere.

RPA also to be merged with NRA.

bk

RPA to be merged with the NRA.

I'd say the RPA and NRA should be merged with the NTA.

Thinking about it the duties of the RPA are:
- Engineering and planning of new lines
- Managing the LUAS license.

The duties of the NRA are:
- Engineering and development of new roads
- Managing Road tool and maintenance licenses.

The duties of the NTA are:
- Public transport development and planning.
- Managing the licensing of public transport.

The NTA are already experts in licensing, so the license management of the RPA and NRA would naturally and easily fit under the NTA.

Only the NRA/RPA combined engineering departments would be new to the NTA, but I don't think it would be a major deal.

Yes a combined NRA/RPA engineering department would probably have more staff then they need, but I hear they plan to sub contract out some of these staff to other countries who are building up their own infrastructure.

That is a very good idea, the NRA/RPA engineers are highly respected internationally and it is a good way to make a few bob without losing the talent and expertise they will hopefully need in future again.

markpb

I agree that merging the NTA/NRA/RPA makes sense but I can see one bureaucratic snafuu waiting. If the RPA (or whatever they become) do end up designing and implementing QBCs in Dublin, it'll mean they have to liaise with DCC, FCC, DlRCC and SDCC, something that the QBC Office already does. Having at least five bodies involved in a bus lane sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Aard

...which would be solved by a unified Dublin County Council...

monument

Aard wrote: »

...which would be solved by a unified Dublin County Council...

Yeah, good idea, but just call it Dublin City Council.

mydiscworld

http://www.herald.ie/news/mater-gets-metro-stop-for-line-thats-been-axed-2960089.html

Gotta love it. I'm already picturing Varadkar explaining himself in the Dáil.

AngryLips

It just goes to show that, in this country, you're as likely to be criticised for planning ahead as you are for not planning ahead.

monument

mydiscworld wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/mater-gets-metro-stop-for-line-thats-been-axed-2960089.html

Gotta love it. I'm already picturing Varadkar explaining himself in the Dáil.

It's not clear what he would be explaining. The project is "deferred" not canceled. Even if it is never built, its official status is that it will be built at some point.

Jack Noble

mydiscworld wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/mater-gets-metro-stop-for-line-thats-been-axed-2960089.html

Gotta love it. I'm already picturing Varadkar explaining himself in the Dáil.

Why?

It's called forward planning and makes eminent sense.

The project has not been 'axed' as the Herald headline suggests but postponed. It has full planning permission so it makes sense to future proof the Mater and other stop locations along the route so that these stops can be built along with the line when the time comes - be that in 5, 10, or even 20 years.

There is every chance ABP will put conditions on the Luas BXD railway order that enabling works to allow for future construction of Metro North and Dart Underground be carried out during main BXD works contract.

This appears to have been factored into the DoT budget for Luas BXD, according to the documents put on the Dept of Transport website which detail the review of the Capital Budget 2012-2016.

http://www.dttas.ie/upload/general/13393-CAPITAL_REVIEW_20122016-1.PDF
See page 13

LUAS BXD, with a revised funding requirement of between €270 million and €330 million to 2016, would be affordable to construct to 2016 or to commence in the period. The cost range here is dependent on the level of provision for certain Metro North works which should be carried out in conjunction with BXD works in order to minimise the construction impacts on BXD services when Metro North is ultimately constructed. The base cost for BXD to 2016 at €270 million is also dependent on proceeding to construction in 2012, thereby taking advantage of current value available in the construction sector.

Incidentally, the same document outlines that the cost to the State of Metro in that four-year period would be €730m as part of the PPP - which is close to what several of us here have been saying for the last year. The decision to postpone appears to have been taken because there was no guarantee the PPP funding element would be available and the State would not have been able to step in with the balance.

It also states that in the same period, DartU would have cost the State €1.2bn if 'be fully Exchequer funded' and implemented on a phased basis. Again, this funding could not be guaranteed and that is why DU was postponed for this period.

This was reported in the Irish Times last week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1209/1224308799273.html

Here's what the DoT document says about Metro North and Dart Underground on pages 12 and 13.

It is clear however that the remaining funding available will not be sufficient to meet the Exchequer contribution required for the Metro North PPP. Uncertainty surrounding the successful outcome of the PPP procurement process, together with the level of Exchequer funding required of around €730 million to 2016, has led to the conclusion that the only solution is to postpone the project to beyond this new Plan period. The PPP process will lose credibility at some stage and, in order to retain credibility as to the intention to construct Metro North while keeping the PPP process alive, a commitment from the State to fully fund the project if the PPP process should ultimately fail would be required. Such a commitment could not be given in the current circumstances.
In conjunction with NTA and RPA various other options have been examined, including phasing the construction of Metro North, but none offer an acceptable or realistic solution. They either change the scope of the project, compromising significantly on project objectives and in some cases they require an amendment to the existing railway order, and/or they increase the overall cost. In the circumstances it has been concluded that Metro North cannot proceed at this time.

The Dart Underground Programme has also been reviewed. The PPP tender for the tunnel element was suspended last year following publication of the NRP which prioritised Metro North. Obviously the same uncertainty as regards the PPP process for Metro North applies to this project as a PPP. To be fully Exchequer funded the Dart Underground Tunnel (on a phased basis) would require in the region of €1.2 billion to 2016 and therefore it has also been ruled out for the plan period. An Bord Pleanala have also as yet to rule on the Railway Order and this is unlikely before the end of the year. Certain elements of the overall Dart Underground Programme which bring benefits separate from the overall programmes will be progressed during the plan period such as city centre re-signalling, the traffic control centre and possibly some further electrification/extension of DART.

Here's the link to all the spending review documents put up on the DoT (DTTAS) website last week.

http://www.dttas.ie/viewitem.asp?id=13393&lang=ENG&loc=2641

Some interesting stuff in there for anyone who fancies trawling through them.

mydiscworld

Oh, I'm all for forward planning. This move makes sense.

But not everyone, like opposition TDs, may feel this way. Might be an easy jab at the Government.

It does go to show you the Gov currently has positive feeling towards building it at some point. 10 years planning permission in place after all.

Could be a pre election promise for 2015/16.

Jack Noble

mydiscworld wrote: »

Oh, I'm all for forward planning. This move makes sense.

But not everyone, like opposition TDs, may feel this way. Might be an easy jab at the Government.

It does go to show you the Gov currently has positive feeling towards building it at some point. 10 years planning permission in place after all.

Could be a pre election promise for 2015/16.

Opposition TDs from ULA, SF and FF (and semi-detached Labour TDs Patrick Nulty and Tommy Broughan) hit out at the govt for postponing Metro North and DartU - why would they now condemn it for a piece of forward planning which enables MN to be built in the future while minimising disruption at the Mater?

As for election promises for 2016, I fully expect Metro and/or DU to be in the manifestos of all the parties, including the govt pair.

It's no coincidence that the govt said both projects will be considered for inclusion in the post-2016 capital spending plan - which will be drawn up in 2015.

strassenwo!f

80 metres underground seems a little deep for a metro station. I think the Herdald may not be right there.

Jack Noble

strassenwo!f wrote: »

80 metres underground seems a little deep for a metro station. I think the Herdald may not be right there.

And you would be correct.

The wall is 80m long - not 80m deep.

Metro North Facebook site is already pointing out this out.

http://www.facebook.com/MetroNorth

Metro North Having a metro stop directly serving the Mater campus is a key objective in terms of integrated land use and transport planning. One end of the new Mater Hospital sits on top of the Mater Stop. To allow that end of the hospital to be completed, and still allow metro to be built in the future, a small section of the wall of the stop has to be built (not the entire station as the article might lead you to believe). The wall is 80 metres long (not deep as stated in the article.)

noelfirl

mydiscworld wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/mater-gets-metro-stop-for-line-thats-been-axed-2960089.html

Gotta love it. I'm already picturing Varadkar explaining himself in the Dáil.

Wow. This is the single most forward thinking thing ever done in this state since they put in Luas crossover tracks on the Cheeverstown Road when it was being built. Some kudos, now if only they'd insist stations boxes are put in at Stephen's Green and O'Connell Bridge if BXD gets started.

cgcsb

mydiscworld wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/mater-gets-metro-stop-for-line-thats-been-axed-2960089.html

Gotta love it. I'm already picturing Varadkar explaining himself in the Dáil.

I gotta love the poor standard of reporting in the Herald. First sentence has two mistakes. Metro North is not a "high speed" line and the use of the phrase "may never be built" is quite ridiculous. Considering how open ended the word "never" is. They should report the facts, stop printing spin.

a few lines down: "a station box, called a diaphragm wall" ....really?

further down:
"Some €46m was splashed on pre-construction works"... splashed, really?

Pete_Cavan

BAM awarded the contract for the detailed design and the construction of the diaphragm wall

DWCommuter

cgcsb wrote: »

I gotta love the poor standard of reporting in the Herald. First sentence has two mistakes. Metro North is not a "high speed" line and the use of the phrase "may never be built" is quite ridiculous. Considering how open ended the word "never" is. They should report the facts, stop printing spin.

a few lines down: "a station box, called a diaphragm wall" ....really?

further down:
"Some €46m was splashed on pre-construction works"... splashed, really?

Whats your problem?

Considering most people either don't know or don't care about MN, any reporting is positive.

Your post can be classed as pedantic. It would be worse if it wasn't reported.

Journalists make frequent mistakes, but that is because rail topics are specialized and those with knowledge are absolutely unforgiving. However the general public couldn't give a rats ass about us. (I include myself in that criticism)

kiwster

DWCommuter wrote: »

Considering most people either don't know or don't care about MN, any reporting is positive.

Would you consider that the population of practically all of the North side of Dublin City and all the way up to and including Swords don't know or don't care about MN?

robd

kiwster wrote: »

Would you consider that the population of practically all of the North side of Dublin City and all the way up to and including Swords don't know or don't care about MN?

Would you consider that the population of practically all of the South side of Dublin City and all the way up to and including Sandyford and Tallaght didn't know or didn't care about Luas?

Until it was built and they started using it. 25million of them in the last 12 months.

Try take it away now and see what happens.

MN, Dart Underground and Luas BXD are the same.

cgcsb

DWCommuter wrote: »

Whats your problem?

Considering most people either don't know or don't care about MN, any reporting is positive.

.....I'm sorry but your post is just too stupid to come up with a positive response to. You think it's ok for newspapers to print factually incorrect information and put negative spin on very positive developments, so long as they print something. Fine, that's your opinion. Enjoy.

DWCommuter

cgcsb wrote: »

.....I'm sorry but your post is just too stupid to come up with a positive response to. You think it's ok for newspapers to print factually incorrect information and put negative spin on very positive developments, so long as they print something. Fine, that's your opinion. Enjoy.

With all due respect you haven't a clue and must have joined the party late or you are still stuck in 2007. Your summation of the Herald article was anal.

Metro North is not a "high speed" line

So What? High speed can mean a journey time as opposed to the actual speed of the rail vehicle.

the use of the phrase "may never be built" is quite ridiculous.

No it isn't unless you have evidence that it will be built, beyond the stated "Government position" which means as much as a fart in the wind.

Some €46m was splashed on pre-construction works"... splashed, really?

Can I roll my eyes? Yup.:rolleyes:

The term is a style of writing. Have you never heard of the term, "I splashed out on..."????? Obviously not.

Next time, before you accuse my post of being stupid, think a little more before you type. You are being anal. The article is typical of many other examples of newspaper MN articles across all publications and considering the project is "deferred", "shelved" or maybe even "dead and buried", anything that keeps it in the news, keeps it in the minds of a very intolerant public that have more to be concerned about right now.

DWCommuter

kiwster wrote: »

Would you consider that the population of practically all of the North side of Dublin City and all the way up to and including Swords don't know or don't care about MN?

If they did then this forum would crash. There is a very misguided belief that people care about public transport. They don't. They will moan and groan about bus and rail services they already use. They will moan and groan about traffic congestion as they sit in their cars and demand better public transport, however that tends to be more about them wanting others to use it rather than themselves. Public transport in Dublin has never been an election issue and never will be. Its all about money and as we get more strapped for it, its still about money. Thats what motivates the new Irish.

The cruise towards Transport 21 was driven by motorists and that's why it never happened. Ireland doesn't understand public transport. A complete culture change needs to happen and if we couldn't manage it during the boom times, we won't manage for a long time to come. The political side feed off this, so its only when its actually provided, that you see real interest. Hence the high usage of Luas, despite people not giving a flying fiddlers while it was being planned.

cgcsb

I have no wish to engage in this conversation really, I was merely highlighting the sloppiness of the article in question and how we're seeing modern journalism decay, but sure never mind.

DWCommuter

cgcsb wrote: »

I have no wish to engage in this conversation really, I was merely highlighting the sloppiness of the article in question and how we're seeing modern journalism decay, but sure never mind.

I agree the article is sloppy, but that tends to be the case with most rail related articles across all publications. I take your point and accept it. to a degree. Overall the article isn't as negative as you portray it. However at this juncture, I'm just glad to see the MN project in the news. It is vital to a lot of rail projects that they remain in the news, because a deferral can easily become a "forget about it". So I'll happily accept mickey mouse inaccuracies, because the general readership haven't a clue either. MN and DU are far too important to let slip off the radar.

traintimes

[Quote=DWCommuter;

I agree the article is sloppy, but that tends to be the case with most rail related articles across all publications. I take your point and accept it. to a degree. Overall the article isn't as negative as you portray it. However at this juncture, I'm just glad to see the MN project in the news. It is vital to a lot of rail projects that they remain in the news, because a deferral can easily become a "forget about it". So I'll happily accept mickey mouse inaccuracies, because the general readership haven't a clue either. MN and DU are far too important to let slip off the radar.[/Quote]

Dear DW commuter
Just asking i need to interview Jack nobel
Aka Grumpy Jack for some Metro north info
Do you have a contact name for him
Thanks

BrianD

robd wrote: »

Would you consider that the population of practically all of the South side of Dublin City and all the way up to and including Sandyford and Tallaght didn't know or didn't care about Luas?

Until it was built and they started using it. 25million of them in the last 12 months.

Try take it away now and see what happens.

MN, Dart Underground and Luas BXD are the same.

25 million refers to user journeys! Average commuter makes 1 return journey per day, 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year. So an average of 500 journeys in 12 months. Divide that into 25,000,000 and the answer isn't that impressive - 50,000 if my calculator is right.

AngryLips

BrianD wrote: »

25 million refers to user journeys! Average commuter makes 1 return journey per day, 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year. So an average of 500 journeys in 12 months. Divide that into 25,000,000 and the answer isn't that impressive - 50,000 if my calculator is right.

What's your point? The same calculation can be applied to Dublin Bus or any other light transit system anywhere else in the world and it won't dilute or change the passenger figures for Luas (relative to anything else)

BrianD

AngryLips wrote: »

What's your point? The same calculation can be applied to Dublin Bus or any other light transit system anywhere else in the world and it won't dilute or change the passenger figures for Luas (relative to anything else)

Just a metric to keep things in perspective.

There's been sweeping statements about large swathes of the northside or southside missing the LUAS and wanting Metro North. Bit of an over generalisation.

monument

BrianD wrote: »

25 million refers to user journeys! Average commuter makes 1 return journey per day, 5 days a week for 50 weeks a year. So an average of 500 journeys in 12 months. Divide that into 25,000,000 and the answer isn't that impressive - 50,000 if my calculator is right.

BrianD wrote: »

Just a metric to keep things in perspective.

There's been sweeping statements about large swathes of the northside or southside missing the LUAS and wanting Metro North. Bit of an over generalisation.

Err... what? Perspective?

Dublin Bus claims 118 million "customers a year" on its website (not sure if this was before this year's decline).

The Luas figure is 25 million on two lines or 38km of track.

How many routes does Dublin Bus have over what distance?

There's reasons hidden among the answer/s to the above which might explain why most people would warmly welcome a Luas service near them.

robd

BrianD wrote: »

Just a metric to keep things in perspective.

There's been sweeping statements about large swathes of the northside or southside missing the LUAS and wanting Metro North. Bit of an over generalisation.

I made the point to illustrate that it is a popular form of transport that no-one really cared about till it came on stream. Projects like Metro North, the Luas BXD, and DART Underground are all the same in that respect. No-one is too bothered about them. It's a bit of a "build it and they will come" scenario.

As a comparison DART carries approx 20m and Dublin Bus 118 m.

Also passengers is equal to passenger journeys not customers. This is a standard international metric.

You've taken the point completely off on a tangent.