Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Furp · 19-01-2012 3:23pm

XRail and Metro North are very different projects.

Only Part of the Metro North project is bored tunnel, another small section is cut and cover and the remainder is surface.

Cross rail is a very different project because it is in London, which already has an extensive network of tube tunnels, service tunnels, bored and cut and cover tunnels, tunnels that where built a hundred years ago and need to be repaired or replaced before new construction. There are new stations to be built (multi service stations, Tube, national rail, bus) as well as interconnecting and refurbishing older stations, During all this the tube and national rail services are kept running with minimal disruption.

also the cost of TBMS is related to how fast they can tunnel, which is related to the condition of the soil - type of bedrock,geological conditions.

traintimes · 19-01-2012 4:12pm

Furp wrote: »

XRail and Metro North are very different projects.

Only Part of the Metro North project is bored tunnel, another small section is cut and cover and the remainder is surface.

Cross rail is a very different project because it is in London, which already has an extensive network of tube tunnels, service tunnels, bored and cut and cover tunnels, tunnels that where built a hundred years ago and need to be repaired or replaced before new construction. There are new stations to be built (multi service stations, Tube, national rail, bus) as well as interconnecting and refurbishing older stations, During all this the tube and national rail services are kept running with minimal disruption.

also the cost of TBMS is related to how fast they can tunnel, which is related to the condition of the soil - type of bedrock,geological conditions.

Hello Burp , disagree with you 100 percent

The fact is both projects are the same the building of an underground rail system under a capital city .Dublin is on the banks of a river so is London , both cities have a rich heritage, and no doubt at each stage each project will encounter different soils and rock.

On both cases utilities such as gas electric water eta have to be dug up and relocated

The majority of the Underground Londons Stations on Crossrails route egPaddington already exist so the London Crews have to basically dig down another level to facilitate the Underground Crossrail in Dublin MetroNorth , however every single Underground Station eg st stephens Green , O'Connell Street , Parnell , Mater, Drumcondra, GriffithAv , Dcu,Ballymun,DublinAiirport has to be built from Scratch , each costing On average 300 million euros each
.
The two projects are very alike , each has there own difference to the other and that is a fact .
Dublin also has a glacial till that will make life difficult for the TBM' adding yet more cost to the now disgraced MetroNorth.

The luas System has proven to be a great success , so hurry up RPA and build a luas network and not just rail lines that dont even join up !

cgcsb · 19-01-2012 5:41pm

traintimes wrote: »

The TBM machines have to dig those tunnells regardless of what type, color, weight, or electric or steam train goes in afterwards ... The cost is the same .
TheTBM crew aint gonna give you a discount just because you are pleading with them that A Train Called Metro North is not A train called Crossrail

TBMs cost 100,000Euros a day and 9 underground Stations dont come cheap .
So quit yer RPA cheerleading ,they have failed theNorthside of Dublin the Broombridge Line however is A start but that should have been done years Ago

sigh, only Stephen's green to DCU is a bored tunnel, the remaining sections are cut and cover and are a lot cheaper. The cross rail tunnels are a lot deeper adding to the costs, the cross rail tunnels are also wider, some crossrail stations are mined out from existing stations adding considerably to the cost. The RPA's estimates for metro north are accurate.

some crossrail stations required purchasing and demolishing some very expensive London properties. The London Clay soil type makes tunnelling at that depth very difficult and additional reinforcement is required. That is why cross rail is an expensive project.

traintimes · 19-01-2012 10:21pm

cgcsb wrote: »

traintimes wrote: »

The TBM machines have to dig those tunnells regardless of what type, color, weight, or electric or steam train goes in afterwards ... The cost is the same .
TheTBM crew aint gonna give you a discount just because you are pleading with them that A Train Called Metro North is not A train called Crossrail

TBMs cost 100,000Euros a day and 9 underground Stations dont come cheap .
So quit yer RPA cheerleading ,they have failed theNorthside of Dublin the Broombridge Line however is A start but that should have been done years Ago

sigh, only Stephen's green to DCU is a bored tunnel, the remaining sections are cut and cover and are a lot cheaper. The cross rail tunnels are a lot deeper adding to the costs, the cross rail tunnels are also wider, some crossrail stations are mined out from existing stations adding considerably to the cost. The RPA's estimates for metro north are accurate.

some crossrail stations required purchasing and demolishing some very expensive London properties. The London Clay soil type makes tunnelling at that depth very difficult and additional reinforcement is required. That is why cross rail is an expensive project.

Lets get this right you are saying that a Station built under the level of the ground is not underground ..?What lond of doofus are you anyhue??

Also Recent documents show that the Saint Stephens Green Station will cost 400 million euros when the Underground Turnaround Tunnel and tunnel line lay by is included.

L1011 · 19-01-2012 10:47pm

Anyone who thinks Crossrail's tunnelling is in any way similar to Metro North's tunnelling is hilarious misinformed. Posting walls of text trying to claim you're not misinformed doesn't excuse you from actually doing a little research.

cgcsb · 20-01-2012 12:30am

traintimes wrote: »

Lets get this right you are saying that a Station built under the level of the ground is not underground ..?What lond of doofus are you anyhue??

Nope I'm not saying that, what I said is plain as day in my post, read it if you like.

traintimes wrote: »

Also Recent documents show that the Saint Stephens Green Station will cost 400 million euros when the Underground Turnaround Tunnel and tunnel line lay by is included.

link please?

Turn around tunnels are expensive that's part of the reason why I always advocated a more Southerly suburban terminus for metro north.

traintimes · 20-01-2012 12:34am

MYOB wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Crossrail's tunnelling is in any way similar to Metro North's tunnelling is hilarious misinformed. Posting walls of text trying to claim you're not misinformed doesn't excuse you from actually doing a little research.

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .,

Really all you Metro North supporters are a bunch of Saddies Metro North has been cancelled with a Do Not Ressusitate sign by this Govt .what part of No Dont you understand ??

Boards ie should put this thread out of its misery , Metro North is dead kaputsky and pining for the fjords of Norway.

cgcsb · 20-01-2012 1:33am

traintimes wrote: »

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .

I have just given you a list of reasons why the crossrail project is significantly more expensive than the proposed light rail metro in Dublin. You have chosen to ignore my post out of wilful ignorance, fair enough.

traintimes · 20-01-2012 2:21am

cgcsb wrote: »

traintimes wrote: »

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .

I have just given you a list of reasons why the crossrail project is significantly more expensive than the proposed light rail metro in Dublin. You have chosen to ignore my post out of wilful ignorance, fair enough.

Which part of the sentence that Metro North requires 9 new underground Stations dont you understand...that is a fact .., if you believe that Metro North can be built for less than 10 billion euros then I believe you should seek medical Attention .

The Metro North fiasco Is now over thanks not to you or a I, but to aGovernment that is in Charge of A Country that is bankrupt and is grovelling to IMF-ECB Hedge Fund Goldman Sachs loan Sharks and only intellectually challenged posters like you are snivelling on their hind legs to borrow more money and more debt ... You should know bettter .. You should have some pride
Not to stick out the tattered Hat begging bowl for boondoogle Rail projects like the disgraced Metro North and Dart Bincollector...

monument · 20-01-2012 2:36am

traintimes wrote: »

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .,

Both projects are about much more than tunnels.

traintimes wrote: »

The majority of the Underground Londons Stations on Crossrails route egPaddington already exist so the London Crews have to basically dig down another level to facilitate the Underground Crossrail in Dublin MetroNorth , however every single Underground Station eg st stephens Green , O'Connell Street , Parnell , Mater, Drumcondra, GriffithAv , Dcu,Ballymun,DublinAiirport has to be built from Scratch

Working and designing around active and in many cases ageing underground stations and railway lines in London is far more expensive than doing the same around feck all below utilities level in Dublin.

traintimes wrote: »

The two projects are very alike , each has there own difference to the other and that is a fact

As the table above shows Crossrail is a massively larger project, and it is different in many ways.

traintimes wrote: »

Which part of the sentence that Metro North requires 9 new underground Stations dont you understand...that is a fact .., if you believe that Metro North can be built for less than 10 billion euros then I believe you should seek medical Attention

And you're going to prove why it has to cost more than €10 billion? We all can't wait.

traintimes wrote: »

The Metro North fiasco Is now over thanks not to you or a I, but to aGovernment that is in Charge of A Country that is bankrupt and is grovelling to IMF-ECB Hedge Fund Goldman Sachs loan Sharks and only intellectually challenged posters like you are snivelling on their hind legs to borrow more money and more debt ... You should know bettter .. You should have some pride
Not to stick out the tattered Hat begging bowl for boondoogle Rail projects like the disgraced Metro North and Dart Bincollector...

Sadly for you, given time these projects will likely be looked at again.

traintimes · 20-01-2012 2:53am

*even if most of these includes current routes and stations to be upgraded

traintimes wrote: »

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .,

Both projects are about much more than tunnels.

traintimes wrote: »

The majority of the Underground Londons Stations on Crossrails route egPaddington already exist so the London Crews have to basically dig down another level to facilitate the Underground Crossrail in Dublin MetroNorth , however every single Underground Station eg st stephens Green , O'Connell Street , Parnell , Mater, Drumcondra, GriffithAv , Dcu,Ballymun,DublinAiirport has to be built from Scratch

Working and designing around active and in many cases ageing underground stations and railway lines in London is far more expensive than doing the same around feck all below utilities level in Dublin.

traintimes wrote: »

The two projects are very alike , each has there own difference to the other and that is a fact

As the table above shows Crossrail is a massively larger project, and it is different in many ways.[/Quote

Of course it is larger , it is after all Crossrail , a project that has been 60 years in the making. It will however cost 16 Billion Pounds Sterling.Metro Morth will require 11km of tunneling 5.5surface and 9 underground Stations , The RPA have never given the full price to the Public of Metro North ,they have said for years that if the price was divulged then that would effect the tendering process so isnt it interesting that Crossrail are up front transparent and Honest about how much their project is going to cost and that the 16 billion cost had also been verified by other Non Crossrail sources to provide legitimacy to the pricing process . You have all the details on Crossrail but not once in all these posts have any of you actually given the pricing of contructing Metro North ,
You know more about Crossrail than you do about Metro North due to the RPA KGB type secrecy for thelast 10years .... Isnt that ironic doncha think???

Aard · 20-01-2012 3:02am

@traintimes

Between messing up quotes, ignoring facts, and being selective in what you reply to, you don't come across as particularly credible. I'd be genuinely interested to hear how MN will cost over €10 billion, as it's currently looking like I will need to seek medical attention.

traintimes · 20-01-2012 3:17am

Aard wrote: »

@traintimes

Between messing up quotes, ignoring facts,and being selective in what you reply to, you don't come across as particularly credible. I'd be genuinely interested to hear how MN will cost over €10 billion, as it's currently looking like I will need to seek medical attention.

Thanks for that just to say that Your friends at the RPA are the procuremnt agency and it is up to them to declare the cost , they have not done so , that is In Credible , You dont expect to get away with actually trying to hide the cost in this day and age do you ?
The Port Tunnell cost 700 million Euros , that is a grim harbinger price for Metro North with. 14 Stations 11kmtunnelling 9years construction to operation .

Stop hiding behind Metro North Bogus Cost Benefit Analysis hallicination , there are no facts being ignored , what you have before you is cold hard truths, someone needs to tell you to help you get back to the real world ,

It is great writing to you knowing thatt Metro North is gone and over like the electronic Voting Machines

Aard · 20-01-2012 3:25am

Yeah, my previous post was flippant. But you're not making any sense - your posts aren't coherent. You're flitting from one thing to the other in a kind of stream of consciousness, which makes it look like you just have a chip on your shoulder about the RPA and government in general.

Why do you think MN will cost over €10,000,000,000 ? That's over fourteen times the price of the Port Tunnel.

L1011 · 20-01-2012 9:52am

traintimes wrote: »

The research is in and The TBM machines on the Metro North and the Crossrail do the same thing... They dig Tunnels .,

Really all you Metro North supporters are a bunch of Saddies Metro North has been cancelled with a Do Not Ressusitate sign by this Govt .what part of No Dont you understand ??

Boards ie should put this thread out of its misery , Metro North is dead kaputsky and pining for the fjords of Norway.

There's no "research", there's you dividing a figure by two and insisting they're identical. There is nothing identical about the projects, from something as 'minor' as Metro North not having to demolish an extremely popular concert venue through to the overall scale of the tunnels.

You don't know the slightest thing about what you're trying to argue about.

You also don't seem to realise that if a tendered tenders for 2Bn, they are not going to get a cent more than that.

dubhthach · 20-01-2012 10:46am

Mod

Folks abusive behaviour and trolling are against the forum charter. Infractions will be given along with a two week forum ban. I have given such an infraction/ban to Traintimes.

Winters · 20-01-2012 12:38pm

traintimes wrote: »

Your friends at the RPA are the procuremnt agency and it is up to them to declare the cost , they have not done so , that is In Credible , You dont expect to get away with actually trying to hide the cost in this day and age do you ?

Yes you do. As someone working in procurement that's exactly what you keep confidential. The RPA have compared it to asking a builder to price a house extension but telling him first what you budget is and I cant agree more. Standard industry practice.

cgcsb · 20-01-2012 2:34pm

traintimes wrote: »

Which part of the sentence that Metro North requires 9 new underground Stations dont you understand...that is a fact .., if you believe that Metro North can be built for less than 10 billion euros then I believe you should seek medical Attention .

I have already stated why crossrail is more expensive than metro and you're too dumb to stupid to understand, not my problem. The cost is in the region of €2-bn. I am a transport engineer after all but sure you can just pull a €10bn figure out of your ass like the big know-it-all that you are.

cgcsb · 20-01-2012 2:49pm

traintimes wrote: »

Thanks for that just to say that Your friends at the RPA are the procuremnt agency and it is up to them to declare the cost , they have not done so , that is In Credible , You dont expect to get away with actually trying to hide the cost in this day and age do you ?
The Port Tunnell cost 700 million Euros , that is a grim harbinger price for Metro North with. 14 Stations 11kmtunnelling 9years construction to operation .

Stop hiding behind Metro North Bogus Cost Benefit Analysis hallicination , there are no facts being ignored , what you have before you is cold hard truths, someone needs to tell you to help you get back to the real world ,

It is great writing to you knowing thatt Metro North is gone and over like the electronic Voting Machines

ok you're a slow learner, that's ok, bullet points will probably help:

-London Clay is a lot lot harder to work with than Dublin's limestone. Therefore the amount of steel reinforcement required will be around double if not more.
-Cossrail tunnels are a lot deeper than the proposed metro tunnel
-the rolling stock required for crossrail will be about double the cost of Dublin's metro trams
-light railway track is cheaper than heavy, less than 75% of the cost in most cases
-Many expensive Central London properties have been bought out and demolished to accommodate new stations.
-some crossrail interchange stations are being mined out rather than cut and cover. All Dublin stations will be cut and cover.
-The crossrail stations have longer platforms, a minumum of two portals and are generally MASSIVE
-There will be about 5 or 6 times as many trains required to to run crossrail.
-The ventalation shafts for the deep crossrail stations are an engineering nightmare
-Utilities diversion in a city that already has a 150 year old metro system is a HUGE expense. Dublin's utilities are never more than 4 or 5metres from the surface.
-Dublin's metro is actually more surface and cut and cover than it is bored tunnel.

D.L.R. · 20-01-2012 6:30pm

Traintimes, you don't run that diddly-eye souvenier chain Carrolls by any chance? :rolleyes:

dubhthach · 20-01-2012 6:33pm

Folks as I've mentioned above I've blocked him for two weeks as a result asking direct questions of him are pointless. That and off-topic.

14-02-2012 1:44pm

I see Shell are able to do a 4.9Km tunnel through rock and under the sea and connect it to a gas pipeline with what looks like a 7 or 8 meter boring machine in Belmullet. Any chance on getting the same lads for the Metro ?:D:D

stevedublin · 14-02-2012 6:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I see Shell are able to do a 4.9Km tunnel through rock and under the sea and connect it to a gas pipeline with what looks like a 7 or 8 meter boring machine in Belmullet. Any chance on getting the same lads for the Metro ?:D:D

Tell them there's oil under Dublin airport, but they have to launch the bore hole from St. Stephen's Green so as not to disrupt air traffic.

NITransport · 29-05-2012 11:03pm

With the current issues in Greece/Euro, and Noonan saying that this could delay Ireland's return to the markets etc. What do people on here think is the actual likelihood/feeling of/that MN getting the go ahead from 2016? Or is the project dead?

Stonewolf · 30-05-2012 12:07am

Depends on what shape this whole "growth initiative" takes. Releasing Euro funds for shovel ready infrastructure projects would be a good way to pump some jobs into the economy.

AngryLips · 30-05-2012 9:04am

Dublin doesn't need MN. What Dublin needs, and I think in time the politicians will agree with me here, is another study into the feasibility of MN.

popebenny16 · 29-06-2012 12:32pm

Stonewolf wrote: »

Depends on what shape this whole "growth initiative" takes. Releasing Euro funds for shovel ready infrastructure projects would be a good way to pump some jobs into the economy.

that is not how things work in ireland. metro north will now (if you excuse the word "now") only benifet those who live in the new Dublin North Fingal Consituancy. You can use that money to sop a lot more td's than five in many other places. I mean, promise to build more schools/hospitals/pot hole fixing/whatever you're having yourself/fix leaky parish pumps/ all over the place.

The question of how MN can advance or otherwise our economy will be given lip service to. A nice report will provide the camoflague that the TD's are really interested in it. The reaction of TD's to the Deaths of Children in childcare last Tuesday as contrasted with their reaction to the re-drawing of consituancy boundaries on the Wednesday said it all, and should provide the final wake up call to those who havent noticed that all we are is (excuse lousy grammar) numbers to them, and professional polititiians will say anything to get your vote. Nothing else whatsoever matters to them.

Executive Summary (for any TD's here who find a post over 100 words being TL;DR) : They will keep promising to look into re-starting Metro North, untill they dont have to.

See - Newlands Cross thread for a brilliant example of it.

strassenwo!f · 02-07-2012 1:36am

One of the things which should probably be looked at, before the metronorth project comes back into the public eye, in 2016 or whenever, is the way the plans were arrived at.

In the original consultation, the RPA had a number of possible route on which they wished people to give their views. And in the end, instead of plumping for one route over the others, they came up with some mishmash of an 'ould route which they thought would keep most people happy.

Unfortunately, nobody was ever consulted on the 'ould mishmash route.

The situation with the city will probably have changed in 2016 (or whenever) when the RPA get around to this stuff again. For example, depending on the situation with the Childrens' Hospital, it may be wise to look at the necessity for a stop at the Mater.

In any case, it should be important that whatever route is eventually chosen - if indeed one is - is subjected to full consultation about its merits.

The previous way, where a heap of possible routes were presented, and the final route was something totally different, is unlikely to gain widespread public support.

monument · 02-07-2012 2:51am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Unfortunately, nobody was ever consulted on the 'ould mishmash route....

In any case, it should be important that whatever route is eventually chosen - if indeed one is - is subjected to full consultation about its merits.

The previous way, where a heap of possible routes were presented, and the final route was something totally different, is unlikely to gain widespread public support.

Expect for the ABP process and its public hearing, and all of the consultation between the route selection and the ABP hearing and beyond??

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The situation with the city will probably have changed in 2016 (or whenever) when the RPA get around to this stuff again. For example, depending on the situation with the Childrens' Hospital, it may be wise to look at the necessity for a stop at the Mater.

Bit of an open and shut case.

The stop is already designed and the station box is being built.

The stop at the Mater makes sense today and will make sense in a few years time with or without the children's hospital -- the Mater is already one of the largest hospital campuses in Dublin and has just opened a brand new adult hospital.

The area is also one of the most highly populated areas in Dublin.

robd · 02-07-2012 9:37am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In the original consultation, the RPA had a number of possible route on which they wished people to give their views. And in the end, instead of plumping for one route over the others, they came up with some mishmash of an 'ould route which they thought would keep most people happy.

The route seems decent enough to me, in that it stops at most major centres of population or work/education. At the end of the day the damn thing needs to be built. You can't keep arguing over the best route.

Also the Luas BXD will take in it's the more Western of the proposed Metro North routes.

Finally, remember the DART is arguable a terrible route. For large parts of it it runs along the coast so thus only serves population on 1 side of the track, i.e. 50% of it's potential capacity. Yet it does OK.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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