Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Uriel.

marno21 wrote: »

TII are just inferring it'll be as big as they can make it as they want to "hoover" as many cars off the M1 as possible. Widening the M1 is not an option so this is a huge opportunity to remove as much traffic as possible from the M1.

M1 traffic figures are available at https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/ - different counters and you can play around with it to get any data you want.

I think there will be a lot of organic traffic reductions on the M1 - Swords commuters and commuters from the airport area using the Metro simply because it's a better option than driving. At present, a Swords to Sandyford/Dundrum or even the area around SSG is difficult with public transport but Metro proper streamlines it.

I'd agree. Swords to city centre at normal work times is a joke. If you want to. Hit anywhere south of TCD you're taking an 1hour 20mins with minimum one transport change. That's a joke given Swords is about 15km from city centre.

And that's before you deal with inconsistent bus services

orangerhyme

donvito99 wrote: »

Clearly the road space is valuable - hence cars were banned from college green at peak. Reallocating space to cars is like getting rid of a bedroom in your house upon the birth of another kid.

That's a bad analogy - I clearly said using the road space for buses, bikes, pedestrians and cars.
A better analogy would be that keeping the green line from OCS to STG is like converting the garage into a bedroom and letting one child use the garage and his old bedroom whilst the rest of the kids are squeezed into one room.

orangerhyme

MJohnston wrote: »

The Tara Street thing was a tabloid rumour, and I believe the rumour didn't even say there would be a station there, just that it would interlink with the DART there (which it could still do with an OCS Lower station). I'll believe it when I see it where that's concerned - I'm skeptical because the curve from Tara to OCS would be very extreme.

Still, even if they have OCS, Tara, and SSG, that's still not as useful as the current range of Green Line stops. I mean, the extension of your argument is why do they bother to keep those Luas stops open now, after all you could just walk from the current OCS or SSG stops?

Final thing I'll say about this is - if you get rid of the Green Line south of OCS, where do you turnback the trams? Well, you'd have to keep going as far as Trinity, so you may as well keep that stop, and Westmoreland. Oh, but there's no track alignment there to allow for turning back north again, so I guess we'll have to insert one on College Green...no wait, that's a disastrous idea...okay, then we put it on the next logical spot...oh wait, that's after the Dawson Street stops...well, I guess we're only a few hundred metres from the existing turnbacks on SSG at that point, so....well, I guess there's not much chance of doing that then.

The only place north of the Liffey that you could decapitate the Green Line and have it still work (without of course having to dig up the city again to lay some more new tracks) is Dominick Street, which is a terrible idea.

All this for what?

As regards the extension of my argument: that's a weak point, I'm talking about roadspace, not the stops. The luas green line now isn't duplicated by Metro underneath, so comparing it to present day is irrelevant. It's useful now, there's no alternative, the stops aren't blocking any roadspace.

As regards turnback for the trams: The red and green luas line are physically connected with rails, so you could turnback the same place as the red luas trams.

Stephen15

orangerhyme wrote: »

That's a bad analogy - I clearly said using the road space for buses, bikes, pedestrians and cars.
A better analogy would be that keeping the green line from OCS to STG is like converting the garage into a bedroom and letting one child use the garage and his old bedroom whilst the rest of the kids are squeezed into one room.

So you want to bring more cars back into the CC? Remove cars when MN is introduced and that will create more space more pedestrians, buses and bikes.

Less of the Bus v Luas v Car v Cyclist v Train v Metro crap. A with a good public transport has one with all the modes of complementing one another rather than competing with each other whether that be for passengers or road space. Look at Amsterdam for example which has trams, buses, metro and lots of cyclists and all modes complement rather than compete with one another leading to a very efficient system.

MJohnston

orangerhyme wrote: »

As regards the extension of my argument: that's a weak point, I'm talking about roadspace, not the stops. The luas green line now isn't duplicated by Metro underneath, so comparing it to present day is irrelevant. It's useful now, there's no alternative, the stops aren't blocking any roadspace.

Again - why do you think it won't be useful in the future? You haven't suggested a reason why those intermediate stops won't be useful.

As regards turnback for the trams: The red and green luas line are physically connected with rails, so you could turnback the same place as the red luas trams.

No, those don't exist. If you take a look you'll see that the only connections are for Red Line trams heading west turning south onto the Green Line at Abbey Street/Marlborough Street, and Green Line trams heading north turning west onto the Red Line at Abbey Street/OCS. There is no physical infrastructure to support the turnback you want.

Secondly, even the turns they do have can't be used for that, this has been discussed countless times on the Luas BXD thread - they're intended for maintenance only, and they are not designed to allow regular turning operations, so I'd have questions about whether it'd be physically possible to have new turnbacks of similar size constraints in regular use too.

The interference on the Red Line frequency would be a problem too, I'd guess - for example Green Line trams turning back north onto OCS would have to block eastbound Red Line trams, as well as all the traffic lanes.

salmocab

People coming from the northern end of the current green line heading to the massive office areas from Merrion square up past the NCH and across to Stephens green shouldnt have to get off the Luas at some random turn back to get the metro one stop to be somewhere near their destination.

tom1ie

marno21 wrote: »

TII are just inferring it'll be as big as they can make it as they want to "hoover" as many cars off the M1 as possible. Widening the M1 is not an option so this is a huge opportunity to remove as much traffic as possible from the M1.

M1 traffic figures are available at https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/ - different counters and you can play around with it to get any data you want.

I think there will be a lot of organic traffic reductions on the M1 - Swords commuters and commuters from the airport area using the Metro simply because it's a better option than driving. At present, a Swords to Sandyford/Dundrum or even the area around SSG is difficult with public transport but Metro proper streamlines it.

Thanks for the link to that site. Very informative. So just took a quick look and the stats show a peak of approx 8000 vehicles at 7am on most mornings. So what percentage of this could we presume are private cars? 50%? If so that’s 4000 private cars. If we presume the p+r should Hoover up 50% of the private cars that’s a demand for 2000 spaces for the 7 am to 8am slot. There would have to be enough capacity for the other time slots also.
What capacity per hour will the metro deliver when it’s fully maxed out?

Bray Head

The talk so far on this thread has been about Metro Link 'taking over' the alignment from a tunnel portal between Charlemont and Windy Arbour as far as Sandyford.

Luas would then become two stubs. Southern running Bride's Glen to Sandyford. Nothern running from around the portal to Broombridge.

I am not convinced this is necessary. Surely the existing Green Luas could continue on its full route and simply share the alignment with Metro Link from portal to Sandyford. Metro Link would not stop at these stations (Windy Arbour to Kilmacud) while Luas would continue to do so. Metro Link trains could be longer and higher but this wouldn't be an issue with the existing platforms as they wouldn't be stopping at them.
Schematic below.

Can anyone tell me why this would not work? Or, even if it would, why the 'two stubs' approach would be better?

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

Thanks for the link to that site. Very informative. So just took a quick look and the stats show a peak of approx 8000 vehicles at 7am on most mornings. So what percentage of this could we presume are private cars? 50%? If so that’s 4000 private cars. If we presume the p+r should Hoover up 50% of the private cars that’s a demand for 2000 spaces for the 7 am to 8am slot. There would have to be enough capacity for the other time slots also.
What capacity per hour will the metro deliver when it’s fully maxed out?

Ok so just found out you can choose car only for those readings and between 7am and 8am cars count for 83% of vehicles on the m1 between j02 and j03. Thats 6773 cars!
The p+r will have to be very large indeed, between 6am and 10am the amount of cars using that stretch is 22564. If a p+r is to be built to take 50% of traffic off the m1 that’s 11282 parking spots.

loyatemu

Bray Head wrote: »

The talk so far on this thread has been about Metro Link 'taking over' the alignment from a tunnel portal between Charlemont and Windy Arbour as far as Sandyford.

Luas would then become two stubs. Southern running Bride's Glen to Sandyford. Nothern running from around the portal to Broombridge.

I am not convinced this is necessary. Surely the existing Green Luas could continue on its full route and simply share the alignment with Metro Link from portal to Sandyford. Metro Link would not stop at these stations (Windy Arbour to Kilmacud) while Luas would continue to do so. Metro Link trains could be longer and higher but this wouldn't be an issue with the existing platforms as they wouldn't be stopping at them.
Schematic below.

Can anyone tell me why this would not work? Or, even if it would, why the 'two stubs' approach would be better?

I think if anything it could end up being the other way around - the Metro will use the existing stops between Sandyford and Charlemont, and the Luas will just use the line to link the 2 stubs together. Though if the platform heights are the same, I don't see any reason why both services can't use the stops - they're so close together, neither service is going to impact the other in terms of speed.

lucernarian

Because the metro is proposed to be wider, all platforms would need to be modified along any point of the green line it would run on, regardless of whether metro would stop there or not.

So the sharing idea is not likely to work unless we create a metro based on the existing Luas trams.

Thebeast078

lucernarian wrote: »

Because the metro is proposed to be wider, all platforms would need to be modified along any point of the green line it would run on, regardless of whether metro would stop there or not.

So the sharing idea is not likely to work unless we create a metro based on the existing Luas trams.

Folks,

I apologise for this really stupid question. Given that this is in the very early stages and nothing has been decided to allow a sod to be turned on this project, what exactly is stopping us just building out the metro with the same track dimensions as the luas to allow universal use.
Another question would be why not just extend the luas across the new "metro proposal" so we have one system that covers the entire city and beyond.

I am sorry for the stupid questions but just looking at this from a laymans point of view.

AlmightyCushion

Thebeast078 wrote: »

Folks,

I apologise for this really stupid question. Given that this is in the very early stages and nothing has been decided to allow a sod to be turned on this project, what exactly is stopping us just building out the metro with the same track dimensions as the luas to allow universal use.
Another question would be why not just extend the luas across the new "metro proposal" so we have one system that covers the entire city and beyond.

I am sorry for the stupid questions but just looking at this from a laymans point of view.

The tracks are the same for luas and metro. Metro trains will be wider though to fit more people on them.

Thebeast078

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The tracks are the same for luas and metro. Metro trains will be wider though to fit more people on them.

Thanks for the quick reply, makes sense.

CreativeSen

Thebeast078 wrote: »

Folks,

I apologise for this really stupid question. Given that this is in the very early stages and nothing has been decided to allow a sod to be turned on this project, what exactly is stopping us just building out the metro with the same track dimensions as the luas to allow universal use.
Another question would be why not just extend the luas across the new "metro proposal" so we have one system that covers the entire city and beyond.

I am sorry for the stupid questions but just looking at this from a laymans point of view.

In theory, Metro will run at a faster speed than Luas. So if they share the tracks then the Metro, which wont stop at all stops, will be slowed way down by the slower and more frequent stopping of the Luas.

Thebeast078

CreativeSen wrote: »

In theory, Metro will run at a faster speed than Luas. So if they share the tracks then the Metro, which wont stop at all stops, will be slowed way down by the slower and more frequent stopping of the Luas.

Thanks a million, makes perfect sense now.

loyatemu

CreativeSen wrote: »

In theory, Metro will run at a faster speed than Luas. So if they share the tracks then the Metro, which wont stop at all stops, will be slowed way down by the slower and more frequent stopping of the Luas.

I'd expect the Metro to stop at all the existing stops between Sandyford and Ranelagh - it would be very unpopular to close any of them, for what, to save 5 minutes? You could probably still have the Luas run non-stop from Sandyford to Charlemont to connect the 2 sections, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

The talk so far on this thread has been about Metro Link 'taking over' the alignment from a tunnel portal between Charlemont and Windy Arbour as far as Sandyford.

Luas would then become two stubs. Southern running Bride's Glen to Sandyford. Nothern running from around the portal to Broombridge.

I am not convinced this is necessary. Surely the existing Green Luas could continue on its full route and simply share the alignment with Metro Link from portal to Sandyford. Metro Link would not stop at these stations (Windy Arbour to Kilmacud) while Luas would continue to do so. Metro Link trains could be longer and higher but this wouldn't be an issue with the existing platforms as they wouldn't be stopping at them.
Schematic below.

Can anyone tell me why this would not work? Or, even if it would, why the 'two stubs' approach would be better?

I just think that running Luas on the Metro alignment would impact negatively on the running of the Metro and the Luas to an extent aswell look at the shared running between commuter and intercity and the DART which makes all three worse rather than better and more efficient.

The Metro will be a rapid transport system no other Metros on the continent have to share the tracks with trams it would slow down the Metro for little benefit to either Metro or tram passengers.

Bray and Finglas extensions could very well be opened by the time the Metro opens. I think that a tram services all the way from Bray to Finglas would be ridiculously long, most tram lines in other cities are quite short and generally serve inner suburbs rather than places further. The line to Brides Glen is already quite far out and it could be made even further out by extending it to Bray.

In my opinion tram services are more effective over short distances rather longer distances. I feel a tram from Sandyford to Bray would be an ideal distance and likewise a tramway out to Finglas from Milltown. The Metro will be great for longer distances and to go rapidly from North to South.

beeno67

Thebeast078 wrote: »

Folks,

I apologise for this really stupid question. Given that this is in the very early stages and nothing has been decided to allow a sod to be turned on this project,.

Unlikely that the project as currently planned will ever happen. The idea is madness, planning to increase the sprawl of an already sprawling city. The emphasis should be on increasing density within the city itself rather than sprawl out to Louth.

Add to that the cost at €3 billion (or roughly €2,000 from every family in the country), 4 times the cost of both red and green Luas lines combined but carrying less passengers, and the project will never actually happen.

Shurimgreat

I really don't think Dublin can take another overground train/tram system built on new tracks. Why not go underground the whole way from Sandyford to the airport with frequent stops along the way? What is it with the hodge-podge planning of infrastructure in Dublin? Most of the new plans always sound great on paper but end up a disaster in reality.

tom1ie

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I really don't think Dublin can take another overground train/tram system built on new tracks. Why not go underground the whole way from Sandyford to the airport with frequent stops along the way? What is it with the hodge-podge planning of infrastructure in Dublin? Most of the new plans always sound great on paper but end up a disaster in reality.

Enormous cost.

Shurimgreat

beeno67 wrote: »

Unlikely that the project as currently planned will ever happen. The idea is madness, planning to increase the sprawl of an already sprawling city. The emphasis should be on increasing density within the city itself rather than sprawl out to Louth.

Add to that the cost at €3 billion (or roughly €1,000 from every family in the country), 4 times the cost of both red and green Luas lines combined but carrying less passengers, and the project will never actually happen.

Madness never stopped our planners before, in fact its something they seem to specialise in.

Shurimgreat

tom1ie wrote: »

Enormous cost.

Well then don't bother with it so.

The Metro North going to Sandyford would simply duplicate the Luas Green Line most of the way. You can't put a high speed train/tram on an existing low speed system. It would be insanity. All the Luas's would have to be off the tracks while the metro train is on it. The alternative is new tracks. But the space isn't there for them.
The Metro North from the city centre to Sandyford is surely a non runner from the start and only someone insane would even attempt it overground.

Its probably time to bite the bullet in Dublin with underground. If it costs tens of billions to put in even one underground line then its probably worth it in the longterm. You can't keep putting everything overground especially if Dublin grows as some predict.

tom1ie

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well then don't bother with it so.

The Metro North going to Sandyford would simply duplicate the Luas Green Line most of the way. You can't put a high speed train/tram on an existing low speed system. It would be insanity. All the Luas's would have to be off the tracks while the metro train is on it. The alternative is new tracks. But the space isn't there for them.
The Metro North from the city centre to Sandyford is surely a non runner from the start and only someone insane would even attempt it overground.

Do you agree with the original section from swords to cc via airport? I agree that fast moving metros getting dumped onto the green line and being held up by slower, more frequently stopping Luas, is far from ideal, but we’ll have to live with it until the public outcry becomes too much and they decide to continue the underground out towards the south west, Rathfarnham, Terenure etc.

Shurimgreat

tom1ie wrote: »

Do you agree with the original section from swords to cc via airport? I agree that fast moving metros getting dumped onto the green line and being held up by slower, more frequently stopping Luas, is far from ideal, but we’ll have to live with it until the public outcry becomes too much and they decide to continue the underground out towards the south west, Rathfarnham, Terenure etc.

I have no problem with the original section.
But a bit like extending the Green Luas Line, they are bighting off more than they can chew with trying to extend metro north to Sandyford.

At this stage, you'd wonder with the costs of all the overground upgrades and instrastructure such as Luas and future upgrades, would they not be half way to building a decent underground.
They should plan for 30 or 40 years into the future not 5 or 10 as they seem to be doing now. Dublin will eventually need an underground the way things are going. One line from Airport to Cherrywood and stopping in the city centre as well as places like swords, santry, collins avenue, drumcondra, ballsbridge, UCD, etc would make a big difference.

AlmightyCushion

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well then don't bother with it so.

The Metro North going to Sandyford would simply duplicate the Luas Green Line most of the way. You can't put a high speed train/tram on an existing low speed system. It would be insanity. All the Luas's would have to be off the tracks while the metro train is on it. The alternative is new tracks. But the space isn't there for them.
The Metro North from the city centre to Sandyford is surely a non runner from the start and only someone insane would even attempt it overground.

Its probably time to bite the bullet in Dublin with underground. If it costs tens of billions to put in even one underground line then its probably worth it in the longterm. You can't keep putting everything overground especially if Dublin grows as some predict.

I'm pretty sure the metro part of the green line will no longer have luas trams on them. It will only have metro trains so the luas can't slow it down as they won't be running on the same line.

marno21

This is getting tiring.

The Metro is being carried on the section from around Ranelagh to Sandyford because it was built with a Metro upgrade in mind. Lets not forget it was originally a heavy rail line and is a much, much higher standard than the rest of the Luas network. By the time Metrolink opens in 2027 the Luas along this stretch will be over capacity. Why not upgrade it and vastly improve the light rail network?

The stretch of current Luas line from Sandyford to wherever the tunnel portal is WILL NOT BE CARRYING LUAS TRAMS after Metro opens. There simply isn't the capacity for them. It won't be like College Green where there will be 5/6 Metros waiting behind a chugging Luas tram along the route.

The Luas stubs at either end will function perfectly well tieing in with the Metro at Sandyford and the northern portal area. The idea of a Luas line all the way from Finglas to Bray makes little sense anyway, so the splitting of the Green line into two seperate tram systems at either end with the central high volume section being a Metro is a good idea.

In summary in 2027:

(Finglas)-Broombridge-tunnel portal (somewhere between Milltown and Ranelagh) - Luas
Airport-northern tunnel portal-Sandyford - Metro
Sandyford-Brides Glen-(Bray) - Luas

Phil.x

No need for metro, spur off a train line between clongriffin an portmarnock to the airport and have a free park and ride station for 2500 cars off the m1 for the people in swords.

donvito99

Phil.x wrote: »

No need for metro, spur off a train line between clongriffin an portmarnock to the airport and have a free park and ride station for 2500 cars off the m1 for the people in swords.

Metro is not an airport link. It just so happens that it is planned to stop at Dublin airport.

Sam Russell

Phil.x wrote: »

No need for metro, spur off a train line between clongriffin an portmarnock to the airport and have a free park and ride station for 2500 cars off the m1 for the people in swords.

The Clongriffin spur would be relatively cheap and could be built quickly as it is over open countryside and about 7 km long. It would cost about €200 million. The spur could provide express connection to Dublin CC or could be a Dart extension, or both. It would require the Howth Junction to Howth line to become a shuttle. It would fit in well if DU is built, but it would be useful now.

It would have no impact on the need for Metrolink as that has a completely different function providing public transport for the north of the city and providing rapid transport from Swords to CC.