Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

cgcsb

Conor1974 wrote: »

My brother is a planner for Luas/Mn and was telling me at the weekend that parts of it will be a sky train coming in at Lissenhall and down swords Main Street which will be made one way because they are looking at a fully automated tram and will end up at the estuary with a depot and park and ride.Deffo automated cause he has spent months visiting cities that have the same

Down swords main street :eek:

511

511 wrote: »

From what I heard, that Apple data center consumes more electricity than we produce and provides few jobs in return. An 8.2% increase in electricity consumption is the figure here: http://uk.businessinsider.com/apple-data-centre-could-increase-irelands-electricity-consumption-by-82-2016-4

"Galway county council received a letter from an engineer named Alan Daly who expressed a number of concerns..."

He's the primary objector! The 8.2% figure, he came up with. And his intentions aren't for the good of the planet, it's because he owns a load of land in Wicklow which he's hoping will become a datacentre.

strassenwo!f

I certainly hope that the metro planners will be looking closely at the potential for a station in or around the College Green area for this project.

We don't yet know what is planned, but The City has already stated that it wants to pedestrianize the area. College Green is going to lose, and indeed is already losing its buses - which carry enormous numbers of people - under current plans, but I have always felt that the proposed pedestrianization project should involve that area retaining its public transport function to the fullest extent possible.

Pedestrianization itself is going to involve considerable disruption. The opportunity is there to use that project to do something more. You could spend two years simply putting down nice granite stones on the current surface, or you could spend three to four years doing a bit of digging to prepare the area for underground services with a nice granite surface on top.

marno21

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metro-north-plan-focuses-on-developing-areas-along-line-1.3392415

Far too much sense being spoken in this article. Of course the article won't be picked up at all.

Idbatterim

fantastic! you need to remove as many objections possible for the morons that inhabit the airwaves and media. "2.5 billion for a line to the airport etc"! When the original scheme was being drawn up, I believe they did everything with the best of intentions, but in Ireland, you need to look a long way down the road. I would nearly rename the scheme and drop the "metro" title if possible!

Sure arent metros only needed in London , New York etc! Dont give these idiots an inch. Could it be renamed Luas north etc?

bk

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/metro-north-plan-focuses-on-developing-areas-along-line-1.3392415

Far too much sense being spoken in this article. Of course the article won't be picked up at all.

Could you tell us roughly what the article says? It is behind a pay wall, thanks.

Idbatterim wrote: »

fantastic! you need to remove as many objections possible for the morons that inhabit the airwaves and media. "2.5 billion for a line to the airport etc"! When the original scheme was being drawn up, I believe they did everything with the best of intentions, but in Ireland, you need to look a long way down the road. I would nearly rename the scheme and drop the "metro" title if possible!

Sure arent metros only needed in London , New York etc! Dont give these idiots an inch. Could it be renamed Luas north etc?

Yes, I think it would have been better to use the Luas name. Maybe Luas Blue Line or something like that, even get away from the "north" name as some Dubliners have a problem with any development to the north of the city.

Of course still build it to Metro standard. But the Luas is very well regarded by Dubliners, it is by far the most popular form of public transport in Dublin. I think MN would get far more public support if it had been called Luas.

I know totally stupid, but sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to get these sort of things done.

Funny thing, once it is built, people will love it and will be crying out for more Metro lines :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Could you tell us roughly what the article says? It is behind a pay wall, thanks.

From today's IT

A revised Metro North is being lined up by the Government as the key to unlock swathes of Dublin for new developments in order to increase the density of housing around the capital.

A new approach to the multibillion rail line is set to be announced as part of the 10-year capital development plan and accompanying national planning framework.

Sources disclosed that the focus of the new line would be opening up land in underdeveloped areas of north Dublin.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

Yes, I think it would have been better to use the Luas name. Maybe Luas Blue Line or something like that, even get away from the "north" name as some Dubliners have a problem with any development to the north of the city.

Of course still build it to Metro standard. But the Luas is very well regarded by Dubliners, it is by far the most popular form of public transport in Dublin. I think MN would get far more public support if it had been called Luas.

I know totally stupid, but sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to get these sort of things done.

Funny thing, once it is built, people will love it and will be crying out for more Metro lines :rolleyes:

What would be wrong with calling it using the DART name. It is Dublin Area based, Rapid Transport after all.

It would also split the ownership of the DART brand from CIE. Could actually extend the idea and call it Dart Underground. Then following its instant success, actually build the DU project.

hmmm

bk wrote: »

And also, I don't get why people think this is a problem. Apple will be paying for that power, so what is the big deal? Why is is a problem?

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but the issue I see is that if these data centres ever leave Ireland (and multinationals can pull a few hundred million euro of investment very quickly), we could be left with a lot of expensive infrastructure with no client. Plus you have to build the renewable infrastructure and power lines etc., and while I might not like NIMBYs I don't want the countryside coated in wind turbines to provide power to datacentres providing very few jobs.

Idbatterim

quick question here lads. Could you simply build metro north to dart gauge and merge it with the DU project effectively and after tender, allow a private company, transdev etc, to operate their trains on irish rail line? or allow irish rail use this new line?

Idbatterim

Of course still build it to Metro standard. But the Luas is very well regarded by Dubliners, it is by far the most popular form of public transport in Dublin. I think MN would get far more public support if it had been called Luas.

agreed, if someone questioned luas in dublin, given what a success it is, they would be called out . They can get away with questioning "metro" though, despite for all intents and purposes, being exactly the same thing, i.e. bloody light rail, just with higher segregation!

Sam Russell

Idbatterim wrote: »

quick question here lads. Could you simply build metro north to dart gauge and merge it with the DU project effectively and after tender, allow a private company, transdev etc, to operate their trains on irish rail line? or allow irish rail use this new line?

I am no expert, but the Green Luas cannot provide the required capacity using trams and is built using standard gauge and designed for metro operation. The gauge cannot be realistically changed. Metro North is going to transition to the Green line by all accounts.

DU is designed to be a Dart extension and so must be Irish gauge and only makes sense if it connects to the Northern line, bypassing Connolly. This would allow Malahide to Heuston and beyond and Bray to Maynooth operation.

There is no reason that the operation of Dart trains cannot be managed and operated by an outside company provided it gets the blessing of the unions. Good luck with that.

AlmightyCushion

bk wrote: »

Could you tell us roughly what the article says? It is behind a pay wall, thanks.



Yes, I think it would have been better to use the Luas name. Maybe Luas Blue Line or something like that, even get away from the "north" name as some Dubliners have a problem with any development to the north of the city.

Of course still build it to Metro standard. But the Luas is very well regarded by Dubliners, it is by far the most popular form of public transport in Dublin. I think MN would get far more public support if it had been called Luas.

I know totally stupid, but sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to get these sort of things done.

Funny thing, once it is built, people will love it and will be crying out for more Metro lines :rolleyes:

I think the metro name is fine. They might have ditched the north part as it has been referred to as Dublin Metro recently. It actually makes sense to ditch the north part of the name seeing as it includes upgrading the green line and we will hopefully get more metro lines in the future covering other parts of the city.

cojamocork

Sincerely hope the Metro trains will be driverless. Lived in Copenhagen for a bit where the Metro used AnsaldoBreda driverless trains - 39m long. Regardless of which length they go for in Dublin (hopefully the longer), driverless trains reduce running costs and crucially allow easier operation of a 24/7 system.

This would revolutionise the night time economy as well as allow for access to the airport for early morning flights etc. You might say Dublin is too small to justify round-the-clock operation, but build it and they will come - just reduce frequencies and it's sorted. People will plan their journeys around a high frequency, reliable, night time route.

Can I also add that a dependable connection to Dublin airport would allow for those on flight stopovers a quick trip into Dublin city centre during long connection times, as often done in Amsterdam, London or Frankfurt? Dublin will thrive on the Metro.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

What would be wrong with calling it using the DART name. It is Dublin Area based, Rapid Transport after all.

It would also split the ownership of the DART brand from CIE. Could actually extend the idea and call it Dart Underground. Then following its instant success, actually build the DU project.

I don't think the DART name is very popular with the public. A recent NTA survey found DART to be the form of public transport that the public is least satisfied with, even lower then BE!

It is too connected in peoples minds with CIE, strikes, very poor frequency, etc.

hmmm wrote: »

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but the issue I see is that if these data centres ever leave Ireland (and multinationals can pull a few hundred million euro of investment very quickly), we could be left with a lot of expensive infrastructure with no client. Plus you have to build the renewable infrastructure and power lines etc., and while I might not like NIMBYs I don't want the countryside coated in wind turbines to provide power to datacentres providing very few jobs.

Well you could say the same about any piece of infrastructure we build. What if we build Metro North and Dart Underground and that Google, Facebook and all the financial services companies pull out? They would then be empty!

It isn't very likely anyway. These companies need datacenters and because of the nature of latency, they need to be relatively close to their customers. So I don't see any particular reason why they would pull out.

Unlike say manufacturing that has moved to Asia as it is much cheaper to do there. Datacenters is one business that actually has to stay relatively local due to the laws of physics. This is why this is one industry that we really need to be winning a lot of.

Also we don't need to build much infrastructure to support them anyway. We already have more then enough spare capacity in our existing power plants to supply a lot more data centers. Actually the big issue we have with our power plants is that dropping demand means we are being forced to close a couple of them well before their normal life span which is a big waste. Data centers (and EV's) would actually be a good solution to this issue.

fionnsci

It would be stupid to have three different names for our urban rail in Dublin once this is done. Four lines (maybe an additional DART line), three naming conventions. I agree that they should rebrand this Luas/DART or just rename the whole system.

D.L.R.

fionnsci wrote: »

It would be stupid to have three different names for our urban rail in Dublin once this is done. Four lines (maybe an additional DART line), three naming conventions. I agree that they should rebrand this Luas/DART or just rename the whole system.

Why? No city brands rail/metro/tram with the same name. They are different modes.

bk

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why? No city brands rail/metro/tram with the same name. They are different modes.

Actually many cities do. Even include buses. Quiet the norm in the US. Not saying we should do the same, just FYI.

D.L.R.

bk wrote: »

Actually many cities do. Even include buses. Quiet the norm in the US. Not saying we should do the same, just FYI.

Can you give me a couple of examples?

CreativeSen

D.L.R. wrote: »

Can you give me a couple of examples?

I lived in San Francisco for a while, everything was referred to us "Muni", the busses, trams and street cars. Only the cable cars (used by tourists) were referred to as "cable cars" and not "muni".

But that is just one example.

D.L.R.

CreativeSen wrote: »

I lived in San Francisco for a while, everything was referred to us "Muni", the busses, trams and street cars. Only the cable cars (used by tourists) were referred to as "cable cars" and not "muni".

But that is just one example.

Er.. what about the BART?

Idbatterim

I am no expert, but the Green Luas cannot provide the required capacity using trams and is built using standard gauge and designed for metro operation. The gauge cannot be realistically changed. Metro North is going to transition to the Green line by all accounts.

DU is designed to be a Dart extension and so must be Irish gauge and only makes sense if it connects to the Northern line, bypassing Connolly. This would allow Malahide to Heuston and beyond and Bray to Maynooth operation.

There is no reason that the operation of Dart trains cannot be managed and operated by an outside company provided it gets the blessing of the unions. Good luck with that.

originally people were going to have to get off at SSG and transfer to metro north. If you could kill two birds with the one stone and allow IR and another operator to use this new line. Could that be the way to bypass IR in effect?

CreativeSen

D.L.R. wrote: »

Er.. what about the BART?

BART is not an SF City or County specific mode of public transport, it connects areas as far as Richmond in the north east of the Bay with Oakland, Berkeley, SF and SFO and there are currently building a connect to San Jose....there are only a handful of stops in SF and only 2 of those stops are not on Market St. BART is more akin Irish Rail/intercity

Neworder79

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why? No city brands rail/metro/tram with the same name. They are different modes.

Why are we so afraid of integration. 😭😭😭😭

It's barely mentioned in future project rational. I know Dublin isn't huge but just taking the little transport infrastructure we do have I see two major problems:

Integration
"Network: a group or system of interconnected people or things"

We need a Transport NETWORK. Meaning a system that facilitates a user in getting from A - D via B and C or E... as efficiently as possible.

Interchange are the key to making a network efficient and attractive. B & C should be simple transfer nodes highlighted to the user on the journey, not isolated modes with obscure timetables and systems.

The users mental model is "I want to use public transport to get from my street to my work (ideally fast, comfortably and cheaply)".

Not I want to spend all my morning on Google Maps navigating between a series of transport modes and ticketing systems, figuring out brands, differing signage and realtime information, guessing modes cross without any interchange infrastructure or reference to each other.

Things you rarely see in Dublin:

• Co-located interchanges between rail/bus/tram
• Street Exit / Directions signage
• Tunnels/Walkways linking nodes/modes
• Interchanges highlighted on transit maps

Look at the "shiny new" and totally hidden Phibsborough Luas stop. No signage at road level or in the village, no tram symbols ("Luas" branding means nothing to a tourist), no maps direction to/from bus stops. If I hadn't an interest in old rail alignments I'd never have found it.

Information Architecture
A single, clear, organized transit information system. Designed to be used consistently across all transport modes, so a user needs only learn once and can expect same information at every node on the network making navigating easy and intuitive.

Every city does this it's not new. Look at our neighbour London where bike, taxi, bus, cable car, tram, underground, metro overground and rail all share a brand, visual language, clear fare/zone structure and a truly integrated travel card.

Dublin Bus has improved slightly in this area with clearer route signage (still using insane "stage" fares). But again the new Luas stops seem like a step backwards on this score. Stop route information signage isn't consistent with old or any other mode. It's not or even clearly visible from any distance! Some stops have poorly printed loose route maps at tiny text sizes, and the new glass information display housing is already leaking water in some locations, it all just feels shoddy given the years that went into planning the project. :mad:

cgcsb

cojamocork wrote: »

Sincerely hope the Metro trains will be driverless. Lived in Copenhagen for a bit where the Metro used AnsaldoBreda driverless trains - 39m long. Regardless of which length they go for in Dublin (hopefully the longer), driverless trains reduce running costs and crucially allow easier operation of a 24/7 system.

This would revolutionise the night time economy as well as allow for access to the airport for early morning flights etc. You might say Dublin is too small to justify round-the-clock operation, but build it and they will come - just reduce frequencies and it's sorted. People will plan their journeys around a high frequency, reliable, night time route.

Can I also add that a dependable connection to Dublin airport would allow for those on flight stopovers a quick trip into Dublin city centre during long connection times, as often done in Amsterdam, London or Frankfurt? Dublin will thrive on the Metro.

The metro will run on electricity, cheaper at night time and if it's driverless the staffing costs will be the same as they are during the day so there is no reason why not.

D.L.R.

CreativeSen wrote: »

BART is not an SF City or County specific mode of public transport, it connects areas as far as Richmond in the north east of the Bay with Oakland, Berkeley, SF and SFO and there are currently building a connect to San Jose....there are only a handful of stops in SF and only 2 of those stops are not on Market St. BART is more akin Irish Rail/intercity

Bart is an urban metro system, its nothing like Irish intercity. you can't seriously suggest Bart is not an integral component of SF city's PT.

Dart is not specific to Dublin city either.

cgcsb

In Paris you have RER Tram and Metro, in London you have Underground, Overground, DLR, Crossrail, Thameslink and awhole host of suburban rail brands. DART Luas and Metro is fine by me.

bk

MARTA in Atlanta (train + bus), Metro in LA (bus, light rail, subway), just some examples.

I'm not saying we need to do the same here, but it certainly isn't unusual. What is important though is seamless integration between different modes of transport.

I don't think change the name to just one would fix Dublins issues, but I do think it shows how siloed public transport is in Dublin and how badly integrated it is.

Taking MARTA in Atlanta as an example is a real eye opener. Travel on the train similar to the DART into a station there, only to see a queue of buses waiting there to meet the train and continue your journey in the suburbs all on one ticket.

fionnsci

I wouldn't mind so much if all the lines came to be known by their different names and came to be commonly communicated to the public on the same map.

"Take the Blue Line from the airport and either change to the Purple Line at Drumcondra or the Green Line at Stephen's Green."

Sam Russell

In London you have :- London Transport and Underground. Both of these names are iconic. Privatisation of the rail services have diluted the name :- British Rail.