Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Grandeeod

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Going back to the drawing board was inevitable because of the way the RPA (and the Department of Transport) managed the project.

The RPA had an initial consultation, with three potential routes between St. Stephen's Green and Swords. They subsequently - presumably based on their the own studies and the input from the public at those consultations - then created a new route, which was pretty much a mixture of two of the original routes.

The key thing here is that there was never any proper consultation on this final route selected by the RPA, to work out tweaks to the route and the stations and maybe to attempt to deal with a couple of the howlers which the RPA came up with on this final route, the most notable probably being the proposed two O'Connell Bridge stations.

It is, in my opinion, a shocking indictment of Irish planning that a project of such importance should not have received detailed public scrutiny in the form of a proper public consultation of the final, chosen route, before it went to An Bord Pleanala. And it didn't.

Going back to the drawing board was yet another example of a political fudge and absolutely nothing to do with anything else in your post. And please don't try to tell me that bad management from the RPA or the DOT is related to political fudging.

murphaph

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Going back to the drawing board was inevitable because of the way the RPA (and the Department of Transport) managed the project.

The RPA had an initial consultation, with three potential routes between St. Stephen's Green and Swords. They subsequently - presumably based on their the own studies and the input from the public at those consultations - then created a new route, which was pretty much a mixture of two of the original routes.

The key thing here is that there was never any proper consultation on this final route selected by the RPA, to work out tweaks to the route and the stations and maybe to attempt to deal with a couple of the howlers which the RPA came up with on this final route, the most notable probably being the proposed two O'Connell Bridge stations.

It is, in my opinion, a shocking indictment of Irish planning that a project of such importance should not have received detailed public scrutiny in the form of a proper public consultation of the final, chosen route, before it went to An Bord Pleanala. And it didn't.

Still wouldn't have been built. I'd have taken the route as planned any day and would gladly take it now still!

marno21

New Metro North public consultation in 2018:

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/public-consultation-on-new-metro-north-soon-35670312.html

LeinsterDub

'I am pleased that the Metro North project is progressing

Quite the case of newspeak. Going back to the start is progress?

Consonata

Hearing "public consultation" is like hearing that there will be a "public inquiry" in other fields.

They have the plans, they are approved by An Bord Pleanala. It's just a matter of making the leap and footing the bill for the project. Yet we talk more and in doing so, waste the savings they are looking to find in paying for these public consultations. I'd wager the amount of money we've paid for public consultations, roughly equals the difference in cost between the originally designed MN and the so called "optimised" version...

Dr_Bill

marno21 wrote: »

New Metro North public consultation in 2018:

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/public-consultation-on-new-metro-north-soon-35670312.html

Anyone seen the can? Must have got a fair old hoof down the road!

So we are looking at say 12-18 months public consultation, another year before the route is "finalised" and then start the design process and bring in the Engineering consultants for anther 2-3 years and then start the tender process say another two years to say nothing of the time to take to build it, that's two election cycles then we can have another review... meanwhile nothing will get built and traffic on the M50 will be horrendous. You got to love our public representatives.

murphaph

The electorate don't view public transport infrastructure as a priority, otherwise all this stuff would be done already.

LeinsterDub

murphaph wrote: »

The electorate don't view public transport infrastructure as a priority, otherwise all this stuff would be done already.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1149453811827264&id=502689826503669
Tell Alan you're not happy

marno21

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1149453811827264&id=502689826503669
Tell Alan you're not happy

Someone already has.

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

Someone already has.

If more people are calling out his bull**** he may actually listen

Grandeeod

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1149453811827264&id=502689826503669
Tell Alan you're not happy

Yet another politician talking crap and making crap responses to the obvious on social media.

Nothing will be built. The general public don't care. But my biggest concern is the fact that those who do actually care, don't like hearng about why it won't be built. Not all, but some. I am of the opinion that anyone who cares about building MN should spend more time being critical of the Government and politicians in general as opposed to being part of the continual crayonism and consultation BS. We've done this already.

Chivito550

Have posted a reply myself, though I doubt he'll even read it.

LeinsterDub

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/metro-north-works-will-not-start-before-2021-says-nta-1.3075898

Asked about the potential to have the 17km line in place before the notional deadline of 2026-2027, Mr Creegan said: “We may be able to shave some months off it as we go along, but I don’t want to promise that we can shave years off it. I don’t believe that’s possible.”

marno21

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/metro-north-works-will-not-start-before-2021-says-nta-1.3075898

It is possible.

As we all know.

MJohnston

I think his point is that it's not possible if they have to redo all of the initial steps that were already done.

Zebra3

Embarrassing stuff from some FF clown in that IT piece.

Peregrine

It's not possible with a new plan but it is possible with the original plan. It's just a matter of paying up.

It was decided that it will be a new plan though. Why or by whom, I'm still not sure.

annfield1978

NTA want to relook at the plan and value engineer it. Kicks the can down the road as they have no money for bus corridors never mind serious infrastructure

The amount of design that goes onto a shelf is ridiculous

LeinsterDub

annfield1978 wrote: »

NTA want to relook at the plan and value engineer it. Kicks the can down the road as they have no money for bus corridors never mind serious infrastructure

The amount of design that goes onto a shelf is ridiculous

European is giving away money and Alan Farrell has said that the Minster for Transport has indicated money isn't an issue.

So that just leaves a complete and total lack of political will as the issue

Consonata

Alan Farrell responded RE: Abandoning the old model of Metro North

https://www.facebook.com/alanfarrelltd/posts/1149453811827264?comment_id=1149636511808994&reply_comment_id=1158728704233108&ref=notif&notif_t=share_reply&notif_id=1494337045669758

we decided to depart from the former proposal on cost grounds shortly after the election in 2011. It is not in dispute that had we proceeded, it would have consumed circa 75% of the then Departmental budget which would have severly effected road, rail and bus services over a period of many years. The revised proposal is significantly cheaper and will result in faster journey times. It is also being built with capacity in mind in that it can be upraded to cater for greater demands as projected 15/20 years post completion, if memory serves. All this information in on the NTA website.

The previous plan has been dumped. We won't be returning to it. That decision was made five years ago.

*facedesk*

Dr Crayfish

It's a bit of a lost cause this. TDs aren't going to be using this as a reason to vote for them outside of North Dublin really, the rest of the country will just think it's a waste of money. I give up. I live close enough to town to cycle to work but for those who don't, move abroad if you have a chance, this city is only going to get worse and worse, more congested and impossible to live in. What's the point in building new houses if there's no transport? It's so frustrating having pantomime clowns running the country.

bk

annfield1978 wrote: »

NTA want to relook at the plan and value engineer it. Kicks the can down the road as they have no money for bus corridors never mind serious infrastructure

The amount of design that goes onto a shelf is ridiculous

Just to be clear, this wasn't a NTA decision. They designed and wanted to go ahead with the original design. It was the government who decided not to finance the original plan and let it go ahead, instead they instructed the NTA to design a new, cheaper and much worse plan from scratch.

I feel really sorry for the folks who work at the NTA, they most want to murder the politicians!

Chivito550

Got a reply:

There are a number of issues with your post. In the first instance, we are not saving 10%. The current proposal has a revised price tag €600 million less than the former plan, however, it must be noted that the figures provided for the former propsal were never firm but based on an assesment in 2012 by the NTA, the numbers did not stack up in terms of value for money. I have addressed that in a response to Simon Boyne earlier, the information is available on the NTA website. It has been known for many, many years that Dublin, as a capital city is the only capital in Europe where there is no rail connection but comparing cities who have metros for either decades, or in one case, over a century is not a true comparison, its just words on a page. A rail connection was first propsed for Dublin airport in 1972 but such plans never got further on the basis of a focus on other transport proposals. This has been the case for decades. There are some who skip over the events of 2008 and somehow think that the state was in the position to go ahead and built the Metro once permission was granted. I can think of millions of others who would balk at the thought that we would sacrifice schools, roads, rail, social welfare and many other causes to build a rail connection. The announcement in 2015 stands. The budget for the project is secure and I am confident in the ability of the NTA to get the job of work done in advance of the planning application being lodged toward the end of next year.

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

Got a reply:

There are a number of issues with your post. In the first instance, we are not saving 10%. The current proposal has a revised price tag €600 million less than the former plan, however, it must be noted that the figures provided for the former propsal were never firm but based on an assesment in 2012 by the NTA, the numbers did not stack up in terms of value for money. I have addressed that in a response to Simon Boyne earlier, the information is available on the NTA website. It has been known for many, many years that Dublin, as a capital city is the only capital in Europe where there is no rail connection but comparing cities who have metros for either decades, or in one case, over a century is not a true comparison, its just words on a page. A rail connection was first propsed for Dublin airport in 1972 but such plans never got further on the basis of a focus on other transport proposals. This has been the case for decades. There are some who skip over the events of 2008 and somehow think that the state was in the position to go ahead and built the Metro once permission was granted. I can think of millions of others who would balk at the thought that we would sacrifice schools, roads, rail, social welfare and many other causes to build a rail connection. The announcement in 2015 stands. The budget for the project is secure and I am confident in the ability of the NTA to get the job of work done in advance of the planning application being lodged toward the end of next year.

More:

Inflation would only be relevant since 2012. Would you be aware of constuction inflation since then to erode that saving? I am not sure that you can pass judgement on such matters without realising the knock on effects within the Department and its ability to ensure that our road, rail and bus network would have been maintained to a reasonable level since then. Literally, Rail safety, to name buy one issue would have to be sacrificed. Its 2017, we have moved on from the old and are currently developing the new proposal in fine detail. Please feel free to email me shoudl you have questions on the new proposal.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Just to be clear, this wasn't a NTA decision. They designed and wanted to go ahead with the original design. It was the government who decided not to finance the original plan and let it go ahead, instead they instructed the NTA to design a new, cheaper and much worse plan from scratch.

I feel really sorry for the folks who work at the NTA, they most want to murder the politicians!

Same with TII, when Michael Nolan and co have to listen to the ****e from FG politicians about this road not being done and that road not being done yet it's FG refusing to sanction the money for it. TII (and indeed the NTA) are well aware of what needs to be built they just need the funding

LeinsterDub

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

It's a bit of a lost cause this. TDs aren't going to be using this as a reason to vote for them outside of North Dublin really, the rest of the country will just think it's a waste of money. I give up. I live close enough to town to cycle to work but for those who don't, move abroad if you have a chance, this city is only going to get worse and worse, more congested and impossible to live in. What's the point in building new houses if there's no transport? It's so frustrating having pantomime clowns running the country.

It's a poxy hung dail . Dublin North TD's should be threatening to pull the plug not polishing turds.

****ing joke shop

LeinsterDub

It is also being built with capacity in mind in that it can be upraded to cater for greater demands as projected 15/20 years post completion,

This isn't true is it?

Peregrine

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This isn't true is it?

It is.

It's being built with lower capacity so that it can be upgraded at a greater cost in the future as opposed to building it properly in the first place.

Somehow he thinks that's a good thing.

LeinsterDub

Peregrine wrote: »

It is.

It's being built with lower capacity so that it can be upgraded at a greater cost in the future as opposed to building it properly in the first place.

Somehow he thinks that's a good thing.

I meant it was being built with an upgrade planed. I was aware we'll have to go back after ten years at twice the cost

Idbatterim

I emailed him yesterday, no question marks nothing not one. I dont want a reply. I want to point out what a farce this is & I for one am sick of nothing being debated properly, as politicians do nothing but lie. How can you have an honest debate?!

He knows its total bull****! Lads lets not forget, the only reason these MORONS didnt go with luas much of it street run out to the airport, was that it would have made a line out to Finglas impossible I think.

Im waiting for the next excuse when they decide to stall this one, metro optimised, will now be too limited for this "unpredictable" and "stellar" growth that we have just gone through, throw it in the bin and start work on the "metro optimised mach 2"

Fg will think that they cant win, in fact those idiots have put a massive break on irish growth rates with the decimation of infrastructure spending during the recession and the housing crisis in dublin, because a handful of idiots dont like "tall" buildings...

We may see a change if Varadkar becomes Taoiseach, I dont think it will be good for the country if Coveney does, the rural anti dublin agenda isnt good for anyone!