Prostitution

K4t

According to the poll, 1 in 4 have paid for sex. Interesting...

Mrmoe

I have no problem with it. I don't really get why people have such hangups about prostitution either. Prostitution is just one aspect of the sex industry. Most of the other aspects are more socially acceptable but still part of the sex industry. All they are doing is giving you a thrill so that you part with your cash. Some thrills are better and dearer than others but they are all part of the same system. I think it is the Catholic based society in Ireland that caused us to shun the sex industry. Gradually some walls have begun to fall. One of the last still standing is the social stigma of prostituition. People can take sex way too seriously.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Icky Thump wrote: »

anyone here who has been to the likes of amsterdam will agree that these girls are AMAZING looking. they are practically glamour models. now while i have no prob pulling a bird it is not every day you pull someone that unbelievably hot.

in amsterdam they are all clean. they must get check ups all the time and have to be certified by a doc.

Lol at how many people believe this. Have quick read about the nature of stis on google and you'll quickly understand how its impossible for them to be guaranteed clean

You are right though that lots of em are amzing looking in Amsterdam

Bottle_of_Smoke

I think if I had more disposable income I'd be tempted.

I don't get why people have "moral concerns" over the prostitute. As if them not having sex with the girl is going to cause the sex industry to fall apart or even stop the girl from being a prostitute.

kowloon

If it's regulated properly to ensure there's no abuse I can't see the massive issue with it, but that's only possible in an ideal world.

Personally I would consider it the resort of a new low, but that's my moral code and nobody elses.

CDfm

K4t wrote: »

According to the poll, 1 in 4 have paid for sex. Interesting...

its a very small sample

Mrmoe wrote: »

Most of the other aspects are more socially acceptable but still part of the sex industry. All they are doing is giving you a thrill so that you part with your cash. Some thrills are better and dearer than others but they are all part of the same system.

like what -strippers and lapdancers - they would define themselves as working in entertainment.

I think it is the Catholic based society in Ireland that caused us to shun the sex industry. Gradually some walls have begun to fall. One of the last still standing is the social stigma of prostituition. People can take sex way too seriously.

prostitution is stigmatised in lots of societies- in protestant england -its not a catholic thing.

even where is is legalised its not something to boast about

as to decriminalising it -i do not have a problem with that at all. IMHO its long overdue and it should be licenced and health tested like holland

speaking on holland I read somewhere that the prices are a lot lower then that those advertised in ireland as a result of regulation

itsallaboutheL

I was sitting around a table with a few aquaintances a couple of weeks ago, they would be in the same demographic as me and this topic arose, tbh i nearly fell off my chair.. it seems to be an awful lot more prevalent than some would think.

Smallbit

As a female I have no moral issues with the idea of paying for sex, but as a mental health worker I also deal with some of the women that sell their services.

On rare occasions you can find women that seem to be able to detach themselves sufficiently so as to display no obvious signs of distress but for the most part, these women are slowly dying inside.

I don't want to ruin anyone's fun here but seriously guys, if you heard what these girls say about their punters, you wouldn't want to be with them. Every liaison is simply a souless mutual delusion where the girl pretends for cash.

I'm going to court controversy however by adding that I understand the motivation to use prostitutes. I've seen so many women letting the side down by commoditising their sexuality. I know plenty of so called respectable married women that insist of some sort of 'payment in lieu' when the 'give' sex to their husbands.

So really at the end of the day, as long as demand exceeds supply, there will always be those that profit...

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

As a female I have no moral issues with the idea of paying for sex, but as a mental health worker I also deal with some of the women that sell their services.

But don't you also get guys selling their services to women for cash. I have a friend who got thru college that way and knew a guy who did the same thing to pay his drug habit. Its something that is even more invisable and less talked about.

I don't want to ruin anyone's fun here but seriously guys, if you heard what these girls say about their punters, you wouldn't want to be with them. Every liaison is simply a souless mutual delusion where the girl pretends for cash.

I don't imagine hotel staff or anyone in the hospitality industry feel any different about their patrons- like a waiter spitting in food. Sorry to disappoint you but a lad going to a prostitute is paying money for a service.

Like a boss buying drinks for his staff -no illusions that he/she is liked.

I know one guy who has brought guys who worked for him to prostitutes when there were having marriage problems.

How much of what is said to you is banter telling you what they think you want to here but holding off getting a real job as a way of earning money?

Are the girls on benefits ie -how dire are their economic needs and what do they spend the money on?

I'm going to court controversy however by adding that I understand the motivation to use prostitutes. I've seen so many women letting the side down by commoditising their sexuality. I know plenty of so called respectable married women that insist of some sort of 'payment in lieu' when the 'give' sex to their husbands.

+1 some women do use their sexuality as a commodity and dont need to be married to do it either. I lolled at the Rosanna Davison/Glenda Gilsen/Johnny Ronan bit in the Evening Herald the other night. The bit that got me was the Ranelagh Rampage description - I didnt find Ranelagh glamorous even as a student & these low rent VIPs do.

dearg lady

Paulo Coehlo wrote an excellent book on this subject, Eleven Minutes, if you haven't already read it, I can't recommend it enough!

Personally I have no problem with it, but can imagine it would be difficult thing to do long term, for both parties. However that's probably due to how and where I was raised, some other cultures are much freer when it comes to sex.

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

But don't you also get guys selling their services to women for cash. I have a friend who got thru college that way and knew a guy who did the same thing to pay his drug habit. Its something that is even more invisable and less talked about.

I also deal with male clients. Their problems are a little different, but nonetheless serious. This isn't a woman as victim situation.

CDfm wrote: »

I don't imagine hotel staff or anyone in the hospitality industry feel any different about their patrons- like a waiter spitting in food. Sorry to disappoint you but a lad going to a prostitute is paying money for a service.

Like a boss buying drinks for his staff -no illusions that he/she is liked.

Quite a silly comparison. Waiters, clerks, and so on are not compromising intimacy, sexuality, and so on. There's an enormous difference between a waiter with an attitude problem and a person selling their body. Carrying plates is not the same as anal, oral or vaginal penetration. I know no waiters that despise themselves, self-harm, or have issues carrying plates for their partners as a result of working on the hotel industry.

CDfm wrote: »

How much of what is said to you is banter telling you what they think you want to here but holding off getting a real job as a way of earning money?

You don't get much banter from a detoxed heroin addict. What you do get are fairly harrowing accounts of abuse, rape, and degradation by pimps, partners, and punters. Sorry if this doesn't fit well with your glossed over impression of the sex trade.

CDfm wrote: »

Are the girls on benefits ie -how dire are their economic needs and what do they spend the money on?

The men and women I deal with are generally recovering addicts of one form or another. Of course there are prostitutes that like to earn more than benefits pay. But most of it is pissed away or put in their veins. There are VERY few prostitutes with mortgages, fancy cars, or glamorous lifestyles.

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

I also deal with male clients. Their problems are a little different, but nonetheless serious. This isn't a woman as victim situation.

I don't think of it as a victim situation either - but lads should be aware that its not a woman only industry and that boys are not just rent boys.

Quite a silly comparison. Waiters, clerks, and so on are not compromising intimacy, sexuality, and so on. There's an enormous difference between a waiter with an attitude problem and a person selling their body. Carrying plates is not the same as anal, oral or vaginal penetration. I know no waiters that despise themselves, self-harm, or have issues carrying plates for their partners as a result of working on the hotel industry.

I am not saying that it is. My comparison is that the friendship/relationship is in exchange for cash.

I imagine that people who turn to prostitution have a myriad of problems.

You don't get much banter from a detoxed heroin addict. What you do get are fairly harrowing accounts of abuse, rape, and degradation by pimps, partners, and punters. Sorry if this doesn't fit well with your glossed over impression of the sex trade

.

I knew some sex workers as friends when I was younger and not as a client.

Nothing to be glossed over and it is not glamourous.

The men and women I deal with are generally recovering addicts of one form or another. Of course there are prostitutes that like to earn more than benefits pay. But most of it is pissed away or put in their veins. There are VERY few prostitutes with mortgages, fancy cars, or glamorous lifestyles.

Unfortunately, their prostitution is a way of funding their lifestyles and they may have multiple social and other problems. Nonetheless, it is a lifestyle choice and what they spend it on is their own choice. It is not as if they do not have their basic needs catered for.

dearg lady

Smallbit wrote: »

As a female I have no moral issues with the idea of paying for sex, but as a mental health worker I also deal with some of the women that sell their services.

On rare occasions you can find women that seem to be able to detach themselves sufficiently so as to display no obvious signs of distress but for the most part, these women are slowly dying inside.

I don't want to ruin anyone's fun here but seriously guys, if you heard what these girls say about their punters, you wouldn't want to be with them. Every liaison is simply a souless mutual delusion where the girl pretends for cash.

I'm going to court controversy however by adding that I understand the motivation to use prostitutes. I've seen so many women letting the side down by commoditising their sexuality. I know plenty of so called respectable married women that insist of some sort of 'payment in lieu' when the 'give' sex to their husbands.

So really at the end of the day, as long as demand exceeds supply, there will always be those that profit...

I might be wrong here, but I wonder if you view isn't slightly biased, naturally, due to your work. In your line of work you presumably meet people daily with mental health issues, a percentage of which are former prostitutes. You're unlikely to meet on a daily basis, women who chose to go into this profession and are happy with the choice..

I'm oversimplifying it, but it's just something to think about.

beth-lou

I would imagine the vast majority of women working in the sex trade are damaged in some way or another. Having sex with up to 10 people a day would not only be exhausting, but soul destroying and not a career that most sane women aspire to. It would hinder many aspects of your life, relationships, health, both physical and mental, and put you in dangerous situations. You are essentially the property of your pimp or madam and you do not earn all of that money for yourself.

Being a waitress is far simpler than being a prostitute. You can't really compare them. Would you enjoy a job where you had to shag ugly women all day, perhaps people with nasty personal hygiene, with a degrading attitude to men. Listen to all sorts of ****e, verbal abuse, possible physical abuse.

It aint a glamourous job. For every decent punter, there is a horrible one.

Sure some girls are lucky enough to get into the higher end of it and earn big bucks, but they are not the girls most here can afford.

Whatever the reason for getting into it, by the time they get out of it they are damaged. And as for the girls in Asia etc, most of them are paying off family debts and have no choice but to work to pay them off. That's poverty, not a choice but a circumstance. It baffles me how people can ignore the fact that they are shagging a sex slave. Slavery is still alive and well.

If you are sure the girl is doing it of free will and enjoys her work, fair enough. But I would imagine for most, it's a horrible, horrible job.

r3nu4l

To answer the OP's question. I never have paid for sex and cannot envision ever doing so. I would personally find it demeaning to pay for sex but that's my own view only. If someone else wants to pay for it then I think that's okay. What isn't okay is if the person they are paying for sex is only selling sex to fuel a drug habit, a pimp or is otherwise vulnerable. So I imagine that in over 99% of cases, I would view prostitution as 'wrong'.

However, we all have our own moral compass and other things I think are fine are things that some people would get very upset about

CDfm

beth-lou wrote: »

Being a waitress is far simpler than being a prostitute. You can't really compare them. Would you enjoy a job where you had to shag ugly women all day, perhaps people with nasty personal hygiene, with a degrading attitude to men. Listen to all sorts of ****e, verbal abuse, possible physical abuse.

It aint a glamourous job.

Sure some girls are lucky enough to get into the higher end of it and earn big bucks, but they are not the girls most here can afford.

I dont think anyone has glamourised it - but its run on a cash nexus.

Whatever the reason for getting into it, by the time they get out of it they are damaged. And as for the girls in Asia etc, most of them are paying off family debts and have no choice but to work to pay them off. That's poverty, not a choice but a circumstance. It baffles me how people can ignore the fact that they are shagging a sex slave. Slavery is still alive and well.

Thats interesting. Do you have a source and statistics to back that up?

I have often wondered how their families can reconcile it.

If you are sure the girl is doing it of free will and enjoys her work, fair enough. But I would imagine for most, it's a horrible, horrible job.

It wouldn't be for you then. No joking - but in Ireland women use it to supplement the money they receive in benefits.

EDIT - that sounds flippant and its not intended that way just reiteratting what another poster who works with women said.

Icky Thump

CDfm wrote: »

just because a woman does not want to sleep with you does after you have plied her with drink does not make her stuck up.

yes it does lol

no seriously i know most women dont wanna sleep with me................................................ they wanna keep me up all night longggggggggggggggggg :pac:

yes im saying alot of women in the south/southwest because thats where im from. i have lots of friends who are chicks and they are so stuck up its unreal. their attitude is unless a guy has cash to burn they are not worth it.......................... it seems like a commen thing about alot of irish birds really. i meet girls out all the time and its gone to the stage where i wont even try unless the girl is actually nice to talk to. im just sick of going out with a girl who has one eye on my wallet and thinking about what she wants me to buy her. dont get me wrong i like to treat a girl like a princess but im after a friend not an investment.

so back on topic yes prostitution is ok. certainly i wouldnt in Ireland:D but its hard to resist in upmarket places;)

beth-lou wrote: »

I would imagine the vast majority of women working in the sex trade are damaged in some way or another. Having sex with up to 10 people a day would not only be exhausting, but soul destroying and not a career that most sane women aspire to. It would hinder many aspects of your life, relationships, health, both physical and mental, and put you in dangerous situations. You are essentially the property of your pimp or madam and you do not earn all of that money for yourself.

not entirly true. i was having a chat with one in amsterdam. yes just a chat:D and she was really friendly. nice girl. dont remember her name but met her in a bar one night didnt realise what she did and when i asked i felt akward for a sec but she just laughed it off and said she loved what she did. she was paying for college and making more cash in 3 days work than she would in a month in most other jobs. she had 4 days off a week. had a long term boyfriend and was almost finished her studies.

to be honest she really did seem to have her head on her shoulders. very clever girl. we talked for hours about art and history(2 subjects i really like:D)

i realise that this isnt the case always but alot of the girls enjoy doing it. and of course the get some weirdos but they also get some hot guys aswell and enjoy alot of it.

Smallbit

dearg lady wrote: »

I might be wrong here, but I wonder if you view isn't slightly biased, naturally, due to your work. In your line of work you presumably meet people daily with mental health issues, a percentage of which are former prostitutes. You're unlikely to meet on a daily basis, women who chose to go into this profession and are happy with the choice..

I'm oversimplifying it, but it's just something to think about.

Yes, you're oversimplifying it... I meet a lot of addicts, or recovering addicts in my profession. Most have at some point or another been involved in prostitution. Some addicts resort to prostitution to pay for their habit. Many prostitutes resort to either alcohol or drugs to deal with the emotional issues. Sorry but the 'Happy Hooker' is usually a myth. I'm not saying there aren't women that can handle it, I'm saying there are very few.

Also, to clarify, I don't judge men that visit prostitutes. I can see the reasons why they might. I'm just trying to explode the myth of prostitution as a service comparable to hairdressing or manicuring.

Smallbit

CDfm wrote: »

It wouldn't be for you then. No joking - but in Ireland women use it to supplement the money they receive in benefits.

EDIT - that sounds flippant and its not intended that way just reiteratting what another poster who works with women said.

This is very true. Women do it for cash, and mostly of their own free will. Ruhama will give you stats on slavery etc, but the vast majority of women do it voluntarily for additional income. The reasons are many and varied, from drug habits to paying for their kids xmas presents.

However... this does not mean that a woman entering the 'profession' will not suffer, or experience feelings of revulsion, or develop other mental health issues. There are many many women out there who thought they could handle it.

It also does not mean that their customers can expect a happy well balanced 'service provider' grateful for their business.

These are just unfortunate facts that the average guy visiting a prostitute probably doesn't want to hear.

beth-lou

CDfm wrote: »

Thats interesting. Do you have a source and statistics to back that up?

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/emotional_state.html

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/how_prostitution_works.html

Two articles on effects and what it actually is.

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/other_resources.html
Knock yourself out if you really want to research it.

Stats Here:
http://www.shelleylubben.com/articles/prostitutionstats.pdf
Pretty grim reading.

r3nu4l

Smallbit wrote: »

This is very true. Women do it for cash, and mostly of their own free will.

Feeding a drug habit is not really 'free will' in the truest sense of the word in as much as if my house was on fire and my baby was inside I would probably be unable to resist the urge to enter the house to try and save her...but would be doing so of my own 'free will'.

Don't underestimate the power of drug addiction. It's utter desperation rather than 'free will' that makes drug addicted men and women enter prostitution...

EDIT: (My post was not really directed at you Smallbit, more a comment/reminder to the general readership)

iptba

Smallbit wrote: »

Also, to clarify, I don't judge men that visit prostitutes. I can see the reasons why they might. I'm just trying to explode the myth of prostitution as a service comparable to hairdressing or manicuring.

But there are a lot more difficult jobs out there than those jobs e.g. joining the military which (esp. in other countries) may mean you end up in warzone situations which can lead to mental or physical problems, mining (high rates of injury and conditions can not be great e.g. I was watching DMX (?) and the guy worked in a mine in the US - there was one section which was the piss pit or something as the urine from other workers ended up there as there was no time for the workers to go to the surface), fishing (where lots of people seem to die from stats I recall seeing, not great conditions being on a boat for weeks at a time), etc. If you don't have particular skills but want a reasonably well paid job (a lot more than the minimum wage), the jobs are often tough.

Smallbit

iptba wrote: »

But there are a lot more difficult jobs out there than those jobs e.g. joining the military which (esp. in other countries) may mean you end up in warzone situations which can lead to mental or physical problems, mining (high rates of injury and conditions can not be great e.g. I was watching DMX (?) and the guy worked in a mine in the US - there was one section which was the piss pit or something as the urine from other workers ended up there as there was no time for the workers to go to the surface), fishing (where lots of people seem to die from stats I recall seeing, not great conditions being on a boat for weeks at a time), etc. If you don't have particular skills but want a reasonably well paid job (a lot more than the minimum wage), the jobs are often tough.

Simple market economics dictates that a highly paid job, requiring little in the way of qualifications, is going to be tough. As for signing up for relatively poorly paid military service, I suppose that can indicate pride, altruism, or even thrill seeking behaviour.

While some of these jobs may have their own side effects, both phsically and emotionally, it still does not detract from the central argument that compromising your intimate sexuality is completely different to other forms of 'work'.

Defusing a bomb is dangerous but a successful result would be followed by immense pride and a sense of achievement and service to one's country. Rolling a condom over a stranger's penis, inserting it in one of your bodily orifices, and pretending to enjoy it, is not usually followed by similar emotions.

Sorry to be blunt, but no matter what argument is offered, selling your body is different to selling any other physical or intellectual effort.

iptba

Smallbit wrote: »

Defusing a bomb is dangerous but a successful result would be followed by immense pride and a sense of achievement and service to one's country. Rolling a condom over a stranger's penis, inserting it in one of your bodily orifices, and pretending to enjoy it, is not usually followed by similar emotions.

Defusing a bomb is only one type of job in the military - it possibly has more kudos than others. Overall, you may be right but I'm not 100% sure. One can certainly end up with some horrific injuries in defusing or other jobs in the military. I think with lots of tough jobs, parts of it may give satisfaction, and parts of it are tough. If yo Anything to do with cleaning lavatories for example is tough but there may be a bit of satisfaction at the end although one may not have time to do the job as well as you would like. If you're a doctor, you will have to put your finger up a lot of men's bottoms to test their prostate. Perhaps in prostitution there is the satisfaction from running your own business (if that is what you do) - so getting clients, giving them a service that gives them pleasure, having customers who are satisfied enough that they come back. Lots of people around the world are doing jobs they would prefer not to do but do for financial necessity - I'm not sure they all get lots of job satisfaction from them, especially after doing them for a while.

beth-lou

iptba wrote: »

Defusing a bomb is only one type of job in the military - it possible has more kudos than others. Overall, you may be right but I'm not 100% sure. One can certainly end up with some horrific injuries in defusing or other jobs in the military. I think with lots of tough jobs, parts of it may give satisfaction, and parts of it are tough. If yo Anything to do with cleaning lavatories for example is tough but there may be a bit of satisfaction at the end although one may not have time to do the job as well as you would like. If you're a doctor, you will have to put your finger up a lot of men's bottoms to test their prostate. Perhaps in prostitution there is the satisfaction from running your own business (if that is what you do) - so getting clients, giving them a service that gives them pleasure, having customers who are satisfied enough that they come back. Lots of people around the world are doing jobs they would prefer not to do but do for financial necessity - I'm not sure they all get lots of job satisfaction from them, especially after doing them for a while.

The higher class prostitutes might get job satisfaction due to better pay and working conditions, but will still be stigmatised.

The average working girl, that the average joe can afford to go to, won't have the lavish lifestyle to buffer the real impact of the job.

Lots of people do jobs with little or no job satisfaction, but these jobs generally do not expose them to verbal, emotional and physical abuse, rape, violence and isolation from society and family.

The average worker can look to family and friends for support when they're having trouble in work. Most prostitutes don't tell their family what they do for a living and have little or no support, apart from their fellow colleagues or their pimp or madam.

You can't compare a "normal" job to that of a sex worker.

CDfm

Smallbit wrote: »

.

While some of these jobs may have their own side effects, both phsically and emotionally, it still does not detract from the central argument that compromising your intimate sexuality is completely different to other forms of 'work'.

For some people not all. I know a few who can justify their behavior in a way I couldn't and its relaxation for them. Their normality.

Defusing a bomb is dangerous but a successful result would be followed by immense pride and a sense of achievement and service to one's country.

I wouldn't do it

Rolling a condom over a stranger's penis, inserting it in one of your bodily orifices, and pretending to enjoy it, is not usually followed by similar emotions

. or this

Sorry to be blunt, but no matter what argument is offered, selling your body is different to selling any other physical or intellectual effort.

It probably is but its a trade off. We already know that the people who do this already have their needs taken care of but require the money for lifestyle choices they want to keep up.

Say a person is an addict they are feeding a drug habit or if they are not the choice is an alternative to normal work.

The choice is theirs.

I smoke and it has its consequences. It still is a choice.

CDfm

I started a thread on male prostitution on the back of the infamous Markus becoming the first male licenced prostitute in a Nevada brothel.

I post in a fairly tongue in cheek style but there are some interesting links of it too. I was surprised it didnt get more comments but I suppose its easier to talk of women in the sex industry then men and the stereotype makes us all more comfortable.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055815679

iptba

beth-lou wrote: »

Lots of people do jobs with little or no job satisfaction, but these jobs generally do not expose them to verbal, emotional and physical abuse, rape, violence and isolation from society and family.

The average worker can look to family and friends for support when they're having trouble in work. Most prostitutes don't tell their family what they do for a living and have little or no support, apart from their fellow colleagues or their pimp or madam.

With regard to the dangers of the job, if it was properly regulated, could it not be safer? Would it not be similar then to say the risks associated with being an "ordinary" massage therapist. Panic buttons/similar could be used. In effect, the working conditions are currently worse than they could be and could be improved for these men and women if the rules changed.

A lot of people probably only talk about their job relating to it to fellow colleagues. Do many in the military (say) talk about their troubles to others? I'm not sure they'd even have that much chance to do that a lot of the time and will often get plenty of verbal abuse. With lots of self-employed jobs, there mightn't be many people to talk to about troubles you have of one sort or another.

CDfm

iptba wrote: »

With lots of self-employed jobs, there mightn't be many people to talk to about troubles you have of one sort or another.

The likelyhood of it being decriminalised are zilch for the time being.

I work in sales and its often very difficult but I dont take my clothes off which does make a person vulnerable. Sales is difficult and stressful as it is the practice of making friends with the customer. If I am work stressed I cant talk it out.

So its a bit naive to think with something like this you can and there is a safety risk. Its to make money so a person cant pick.

iptba

CDfm wrote: »

If I am work stressed I cant talk it out. So its a bit naive to think with something like this you can.

My point was that prostitution wasn't necessarily different from other jobs on this aspect - somebody else tried to make the distinction between prostitution and other jobs.

CDfm wrote: »

there is a safety risk.

There is a safety risk with lots of jobs. Dozens of people die each year in workplace accidents (mostly men), lots more get seriously injured(mostly men).

Some types of jobs are clearly much more dangerous than others. In other countries (where some people can come from), the figures can be even higher. Ireland isn't really that industralised, doesn't have that much mining, etc. We don't ban jobs because there's a safety risk associated with them.

CDfm wrote: »

Its to make money so a person cant pick.

???