Israeli apartheid

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

So would you agree that a great deal of the attacks on Israel - caused as they are by a 43 year occupation - are essentially self inflicted?

Like I said to Wes, the soldiers shouldn't be defending settlements.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hey, I'm not defending the settlements. I don't think the IDF should be wasting resources on protecting settlers.

My point still stands though that rocks vs soldiers = dumb as a bag of hammers.

Well, when people are desperate they will do whatever they can to defend themselves. At the end of the day, the IDF are the aggressors, and the Palestinians are using desperate means to stop the land theft.

You can call them stupid or whatever, but the only other choice they have is to allow the IDF to walk all over them

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Like I said to Wes, the soldiers shouldn't be defending settlements.

Theres a tad more to it than soldiers defending settlements. Tax breaks are available to encourage people to move there. Its government funded colonialism.

Now, if the logic of

Its easily apparent to see that if you attack soldiers then sh-t can happen, they must be absolutely thick if they don't realise that

is followed through, then surely a great deal, if not all of, Palestinian violence is provoked by Israel, and the consequences are 'shit happening'.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Well, when people are desperate they will do whatever they can to defend themselves. At the end of the day, the IDF are the aggressors, and the Palestinians are using desperate means to stop the land theft.

You can call them stupid or whatever, but the only other choice they have is to allow the IDF to walk all over them

The IDF aren't walking over anyone in these clashes, they are standing between the settlers and the palestinians and getting attacked for their trouble.

If the IDF weren't there then the settlers would be defending themselves and probably causing more bloodshed. I would prefer to see the settlements dismantled but thats just not going to happen in a netanyahu/lieberman government.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

Theres a tad more to it than soldiers defending settlements. Tax breaks are available to encourage people to move there. Its government funded colonialism.

Now, if the logic of

is followed through, then surely a great deal, if not all of, Palestinian violence is provoked by Israel, and the consequences are 'shit happening'.

As I said before, settlers are an unnecessary drain on Israels resources.

And its not just about provocation, palestinian teenagers are hyped up by their political leaders into going to these clashes, as I said, Fatah and Hamas don't give a crap about dead palestinians, they are just "martyrs"

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The IDF aren't walking over anyone in these clashes, they are standing between the settlers and the palestinians and getting attacked for their trouble.

And on what planet does that happen? The IDF are an occupying force, there to enable colonisation. They aren't there to keep the peace in any normal sense.

You do realise that prosecutions for damage and attacks on Palestinian property are, last I knew, still at roughly 0 (zero, nada) (there may have been a recent exception for an attack on a mosque)? We can go though the details if you want....

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The IDF aren't walking over anyone in these clashes, they are standing between the settlers and the palestinians and getting attacked for their trouble.

Sorry, but they are. They enabled the existence of settlements, which is walking all over Palestinians. They also enable the destruction of Palestinian homes, which Israel deems illegal.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

If the IDF weren't there then the settlers would be defending themselves and probably causing more bloodshed. I would prefer to see the settlements dismantled but thats just not going to happen in a netanyahu/lieberman government.

If the IDF, didn't protect settlements, they wouldn't be as brazen in building them. If they had no water, electricity, government funding etc, they probably wouldn't exist.

**EDIT**
Just to add, every single Israeli government has built settlements without fail. This isn't just a Netanyahu issue, its an ideological one. The state of Israel and most of its political parties, seem intent on grabbing as much land as possible.
**END EDIT**

anymore

wes wrote: »

Sorry, but they are. They enabled the existence of settlements, which is walking all over Palestinians. They also enable the destruction of Palestinian homes, which Israel deems illegal.



If the IDF, didn't protect settlements, they wouldn't be as brazen in building them. If they had no water, electricity, government funding etc, they probably wouldn't exist.

So youy are advocating removing the IDF and letting the settlers to the tender mercies of Palestinian murderers ?

I see the rocket attacks have started again, launched from urban areas again. Nothing changes does it ? Ever......

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

So youy are advocating removing the IDF and letting the settlers to the tender mercies of Palestinian murderers ?
......

The settlers have no right to be there. The settlers have to leave. If they wish to live in a Palestinian governed West Bank, I'm sure they can apply for citizenship at some stage in the future.

What "palestinian murderers" are you referring to?

paulaa

anymore wrote: »

So youy are advocating removing the IDF and letting the settlers to the tender mercies of Palestinian murderers ?

I see the rocket attacks have started again, launched from urban areas again. Nothing changes does it ? Ever......

Are you serious ? The settlers are no shrinking violets, they are heavily armed and shoot to kill . They literally get away with murder in the biased Israeli courts. YouTube is full of videos of the settler abuse and killings of Palestinians.

These are adults who beat and throw stones at Palestinian children on their way to school. They kick and beat Palestinian women going about their business. That is why the peace activists supplied the Palestinians with video cameras, to record the abuse and harassment they suffer daily a the hands of these vicious misfits and religious nutjobs.

They are out of control and allowed to do whatever they like with the blessing of the occupiers.

As to rockets, every person on this planet has the right to protest and protect themselves. Gazans have endured an inhuman and malicious siege for over 1000 days, not to mention the slaughter that was Cast Lead.

imo they are within their rights to protest, whether by firing their pathetic little rockets, lobbying the UN or any other means.

Israel needs to lift their jackboots off the necks of these people and I'm sure the rockets would stop.

wes

anymore wrote: »

So youy are advocating removing the IDF and letting the settlers to the tender mercies of Palestinian murderers ?

They have no business being where they are. They need to be removed plain and simple. **EDIT**Settlers regularly engage in violence against Palestinians under the watchful eye of the IDF. Also, terms like Palestinian murderer's are comical at best, especially considering the crap settlers pull.**END EDIT**

Having said that, it would be a simple matter not give any protection to any new conlonies.

anymore wrote: »

I see the rocket attacks have started again, launched from urban areas again. Nothing changes does it ? Ever......

Yeah, you right. The siege of Gaza is still ongoing, and Israel land theft is still ongoing. None of those things stopped, but the rockets did stop for a while. You see the difference is that Israel never seems to stop.

anymore

paulaa wrote: »

Are you serious ? The settlers are no shrinking violets, they are heavily armed and shoot to kill . They literally get away with murder in the biased Israeli courts. YouTube is full of videos of the settler abuse and killings of Palestinians.

These are adults who beat and throw stones at Palestinian children on their way to school. They kick and beat Palestinian women going about their business. That is why the peace activists supplied the Palestinians with video cameras, to record the abuse and harassment they suffer daily a the hands of these vicious misfits and religious nutjobs.

They are out of control and allowed to do whatever they like with the blessing of the occupiers.

As to rockets, every person on this planet has the right to protest and protect themselves. Gazans have endured an inhuman and malicious siege for over 1000 days, not to mention the slaughter that was Cast Lead.

imo they are within their rights to protest, whether by firing their pathetic little rockets, lobbying the UN or any other means.

Israel needs to lift their jackboots off the necks of these people and I'm sure the rockets would stop.

Since when has eight years of rocket attacks against civilians been regarded as ' protest' ?
Has the UN charter been altered to accomodate this version of ' peace full protest ?
The Palestinian leadership brought on the blockade and they are making enormous fortunes of it - just as Saddam made a fortume from the UN sanctions against Iraq. But hey, profiteering is outside the scope of the thread, right ?

anymore

wes wrote: »

They have no business being where they are. They need to be removed plain and simple. **EDIT**Settlers regularly engage in violence against Palestinians under the watchful eye of the IDF. Also, terms like Palestinian murderer's are comical at best, especially considering the crap settlers pull.**END EDIT**

Having said that, it would be a simple matter not give any protection to any new conlonies.



Yeah, you right. The siege of Gaza is still ongoing, and Israel land theft is still ongoing. None of those things stopped, but the rockets did stop for a while. You see the difference is that Israel never seems to stop.

As I said to some one else, we have given up our legitimate claim on the six counties - lives are more important. Pity not everyone sees it that way.

''But as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short, we see the dreary steeples of (Fermanagh and Tyrone) Palestine & Israel emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that has been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world."

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

As I said to some one else, we have given up our legitimate claim on the six counties - lives are more important. Pity not everyone sees it that way.

''But as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short, we see the dreary steeples of (Fermanagh and Tyrone) Palestine & Israel emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that has been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world."

I was unaware nationalists were being evicted from their homes to make way for english settlers.

You don't seem to be very familiar with whats going on.

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

I was unaware nationalists were being evicted from their homes to make way for english settlers.

You don't seem to be very familiar with whats going on.

I am aware that Palestinian politicians were murderd to make way for other Palestinian ' Politicians' Did you watch the DVDs.
Ps what about the Palestinain hairdressers ' evicted ' from work as Ladies hairdressers ?

joesoap007

anymore wrote: »

As I said to some one else, we have given up our legitimate claim on the six counties - lives are more important. Pity not everyone sees it that way.

''But as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short, we see the dreary steeples of (Fermanagh and Tyrone) Palestine & Israel emerging once again. The integrity of their quarrel is one of the few institutions that has been unaltered in the cataclysm which has swept the world."

this is whats going on.just aswell the tv people were their.or idf would not have acted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-a-I3GxQFQ

wes

anymore wrote: »

As I said to some one else, we have given up our legitimate claim on the six counties - lives are more important. Pity not everyone sees it that way.

The situations are hardly the same. For one thing, I doubt we would give up Dublin, if Unionists suddendly decided to start colonising it.

Let me put it to you simple. Under international law, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza belong to the Palestinians. The sooner Zionists adn there apologists accept this reality, the sooner there will be peace. The constant ongoing land theft is making a 2 state solution impossible. It is the Zionists that need to give up there delusions of a greater Israel, and not the Palestinians, who have already given up there claim to the majority of there stolen home.

anymore

joesoap007 wrote: »

this is whats going on.just aswell the tv people were their.or idf would not have acted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-a-I3GxQFQ

So how many dvds showing palesinians murdering palestinians have to be posted in return ?
Be honest, without Israel, Palestine would probably erupt into an orgy of mass killing just as Iraq has with Sunnis and ****es trying to out do each other in slaughter.
You can take Israel out of the middle east, but you cant take genocidal murder out.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

I am aware that Palestinian politicians were murderd to make way for other Palestinian ' Politicians' Did you watch the DVDs.
Ps what about the Palestinian hairdressers ' evicted ' from work as Ladies hairdressers ?

Lets - just for the sake of argument - say that last month, every Palestinian male who ever gave a woman a haircut was taken out and shot by Hamas, and those previously dead were disinterred and their bodies hung.

With that in mind, how would that make the 43 year long occupation and settlement of the occupied territories and its associated activities, by Israel, any more legitimate?

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

The situations are hardly the same. For one thing, I doubt we would give up Dublin, if Unionists suddendly decided to start colonising it.

Let me put it to you simple. Under international law, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza belong to the Palestinians. The sooner Zionists adn there apologists accept this reality, the sooner there will be peace. The constant ongoing land theft is making a 2 state solution impossible. It is the Zionists that need to give up there delusions of a greater Israel, and not the Palestinians, who have already given up there claim to the majority of there stolen home.

You see, you always go too far. I could just as easily call you a palestinian apologist or even a terrorist apologist, I know you are not the latter but hey if you want to tar everyone on the opposing side with the same brush then so can I.

As I have said numerous times, the settlers should be left fend for themselves. Perhaps I need to clarify my position further, the settlements should get no help in any shape or form from any part of the Israeli state.

anymore

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You see, you always go too far. I could just as easily call you a palestinian apologist or even a terrorist apologist, I know you are not the latter but hey if you want to tar everyone on the opposing side with the same brush then so can I.

As I have said numerous times, the settlers should be left fend for themselves. Perhaps I need to clarify my position further, the settlements should get no help in any shape or form from any part of the Israeli state.

I dont necessarily disagree with you about the Isreal State, but, for example, Iran is funding a large part of the military campaign against Israel, just as much of the war against Israel has been provoked and funded by arab states down the decades. If these is to be disengagement by Israel, there must be disengagement by all others.

joesoap007

anymore wrote: »

So how many dvds showing palesinians murdering palestinians have to be posted in return ?
Be honest, without Israel, Palestine would probably erupt into an orgy of mass killing just as Iraq has with Sunnis and ****es trying to out do each other in slaughter.
You can take Israel out of the middle east, but you cant take genocidal murder out.

o every country has civil wars

very weak ,


they wont be taught lies in school or told half storys like here..


israel wil never win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzzLxyfeyVA

Palestine , My name is Palestine
I wrote my name at all fields
with a unique font greater than all titles
The letters of my name, the letters of my name, live inside me, feed me, spread the soul and fire inside my body
The mountains of the river, knows me well
I spent all my power and ask my nation help
And Saladin was calling, calling inside me

And my Arabic origin is asking me for freedom and revenge
And my Arabic origin is asking me for freedom and revenge
And those flags which were folded at Hatiin
And the caller of Al Aqsa Masjid is calling for help
And thousands of prisoners are calling for help
Calling the greater nation and calling for millions
Go to Al Quds
to a war where the oppressed are, to stop the injustice of the Zionism, and raise the flag of Palestine
My words will remain the same
Palestine, Palestine, Palestine

moonpurple

sick of Israel, time for the U.S. to turn off the support for a while

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

You see, you always go too far. I could just as easily call you a palestinian apologist or even a terrorist apologist, I know you are not the latter but hey if you want to tar everyone on the opposing side with the same brush then so can I.

Alright fair enough, but I was talking about a specific group of people, and not referring to people on here. **EDIT**To further clarify, the apologists I speak of are the likes of AIPAC.**END EDIT**

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

As I have said numerous times, the settlers should be left fend for themselves. Perhaps I need to clarify my position further, the settlements should get no help in any shape or form from any part of the Israeli state.

Yes, you have done so, but I was not replying to you in this instance....

anymore

Nodin wrote: »

Lets - just for the sake of argument - say that last month, every Palestinian male who ever gave a woman a haircut was taken out and shot by Hamas, and those previously dead were disinterred and their bodies hung.

With that in mind, how would that make the 43 year long occupation and settlement of the occupied territories and its associated activities, by Israel, any more legitimate?

For record I didnt say any hairdresser had been killed by Hamas - dont put words in my mouth.

Also for the record, Israel was forced out of its own borders by the wars of aggression waged against by ioo million Arabs or their States. Israel won , tough ! Spare me the lectures on International laws & human rights the middle east has little respect of internaional law of human rights; something Bush was able to exploit when handing over Muslims to the torture chambers of the middle east.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Alright fair enough, but I was talking about a specific group of people, and not referring to people on here. **EDIT**To further clarify, the apologists I speak of are the likes of AIPAC.**END EDIT**



Yes, you have done so, but I was not replying to you in this instance....

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification

joesoap007

moonpurple wrote: »

sick of Israel, time for the U.S. to turn off the support for a while

is it over 3 billon a year?

turn it off for ever

wes

anymore wrote: »

Also for the record, Israel was forced out of its own borders by the wars of aggression waged against by ioo million Arabs or their States. Israel won , tough ! Spare me the lectures on International laws & human rights the middle east has little respect of internaional law of human rights; something Bush was able to exploit when handing over Muslims to the torture chambers of the middle east.

I think your version of history is one sided to say the least.

Also, I find it doubly funny that you use the term war of aggression, which is a term that is used in International law (and why it carries any weight), but then disparage it (International law) in the next sentence.

BlaasForRafa

anymore wrote: »

For record I didnt say any hairdresser had been killed by Hamas - dont put words in my mouth.

Also for the record, Israel was forced out of its own borders by the wars of aggression waged against by ioo million Arabs or their States. Israel won , tough !

Indeed and no one is more admiring of the fighting spirit and skill of the IDF but wrong choices where made post '67. The zionist voices won out over the secularist voices after the joy of the triumph wore off.

The jordanians certainly did nothing positive for the Palestinians either, they de facto controlled the west bank from 1948-67 and did nothing to help establish a palestinian state and went on to persecute the palestinians during Black September yet they get a remarkably easy ride for their role in the middle east.

Still it was a mistake to start settling on that land, it was always going to be a stick that Israel could be beaten with and escalating that situation now is stupid.

anymore

joesoap007 wrote: »

o every country has civil wars

very weak ,


they wont be taught lies in school or told half storys like here..


israel wil never win
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzzLxyfeyVA

Palestine , My name is Palestine
I wrote my name at all fields
with a unique font greater than all titles
The letters of my name, the letters of my name, live inside me, feed me, spread the soul and fire inside my body
The mountains of the river, knows me well
I spent all my power and ask my nation help
And Saladin was calling, calling inside me

And my Arabic origin is asking me for freedom and revenge
And my Arabic origin is asking me for freedom and revenge
And those flags which were folded at Hatiin
And the caller of Al Aqsa Masjid is calling for help
And thousands of prisoners are calling for help
Calling the greater nation and calling for millions
Go to Al Quds
to a war where the oppressed are, to stop the injustice of the Zionism, and raise the flag of Palestine
My words will remain the same
Palestine, Palestine, Palestine

Yawn !