Israeli apartheid

BlaasForRafa

joesoap007 wrote: »

http://cheztwosret.blogspot.com/2007/01/819-palestinian-children-shot-in-their.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4279102/Bullets-in-the-brain-shrapnel-in-the-spine-the-terrible-injuries-suffered-by-children-of-Gaza.html

http://www.pcrf.net/

were have you been living? the moon

the pcrf has had links to an organisation linked to providing funds to buy weapons to Hamas so I would be wary of believing anything they say http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/15/us/charity-seeks-to-transfer-money-frozen-by-treasury.html

joesoap007

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

While those accounts are harrowing, they in no way back up your assertion of 'palestinian kids getting killed every week'

If unfortunately palestinian children get killed it's usually because the terrorists use hospitals and schools as bases to launch rockets.

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=26083

so israel say.but nobody launched rockets from the un schools they hit in 09. their allways lieing

why did they put the press on a hill top miles to cover the war?why are reporters shot by idf..so they can spoon feed you lies...their killing palestinians at will and filling everybody with sh1t.. do you live on the moon aswell..

but hay.. their were plenty like you in the 30s and 40s that fell for the nazi dream..when you wake up dont be mad .theres a sucker born every day

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hang on a sec, threads are often derailed by anti-israeli posters who don't keep to the subject of the thread. I specifically remember the thread regarding an upcoming Gaza invasion by Israel which was disproved as an Iranian propoganda piece to detract from the internal Iranian problems yet the thread was continued and used for any old slur to be thrown at Israel.

People were still talking about Israel. This thread has nothing to do with Iran etc.

Also, there were plenty of posters on both sides still discussing it btw. Now if people started bringing up the Congo in that thread for example, then you would have an apt comparison.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Israel is a democracy, non-jews have the vote just the same as jews.

Being Jewish and a democracy is a contradiction. They can't really have it both ways. The current make up of the state ensures supremacy of one ethnic group, and that is not a proper democracy.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Regarding the wall, it should keep to the border except where geographical features make this impractical. As always the settlements complicate the issue, in my opinion they should have been left fend for themselves but in some cases the wall has included them.

Well, some of the colonies are actually outside of the wall, which is another hole in Israel security argument concerning it.

The wall as it stands is an act of aggression, until Israel puts it on there own side of the border.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I don't think theres any doubt that the wall has made it less easy for terrorists to get into Israel. Even though its not yet complete, it is complete enough in urban areas to be a deterrent to suicide bombers. If a bomber has to go off into the desert to cross the border and then journey for miles inside israel then its much more likely they will be stopped.

If the guy is going to kill himself, a detour isn't exactly a big deal, and if you going to kill yourself, again being caught isn't a big deal. I fail to see how an incomplete wall stops suicide bombers. I don't think an incomplete wall is what is stopping suicide bombers.

wes

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

While those accounts are harrowing, they in no way back up your assertion of 'palestinian kids getting killed every week'

If unfortunately palestinian children get killed it's usually because the terrorists use hospitals and schools as bases to launch rockets.

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=26083

The Goldstone report showed Hamas were operating in civilian area's, but claims like yours where they used hospitals and schools to launch rockers, have never been proven by Israel, and there claims made by Israel of Hamas deliberately using Human Shields, also have never been proven.

Again, as per the Goldstone report, we know the IDF attacked civilian targets, and we also know that the IDF used Human Shields.

Israel ongoing siege of Gaza is of course an act of aggression that effect 1.5 million people, and under International law Gaza is still occupied as Israel controls the air and sea access to the strip.

The article you present is filled with many inaccuracies, and claims like the following are laughable, in light of the Goldstone report:

Never in history, has any country made such an enormous effort to avoid civilian casualties, in fighting against murderers who target only civilians and never anything else. No one in Kosovo, Serbia, Georgia or Iraq, was offered such a courtesy by the bombing and attacking powers. This fact is never mentioned by the western media.

The above fact is no fact at all. As we now know from the Goldstone report, the IDF deliberately attacked civilian targets, and we also know that they used Human Shields.

The article makes all kinds of allegations, and as per usual provides no proof, and repeats the same old factual inaccuracies.

Mahatma coat

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

the pcrf has had links to an organisation linked to providing funds to buy weapons to Hamas so I would be wary of believing anything they say http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/15/us/charity-seeks-to-transfer-money-frozen-by-treasury.html

Links to Links to a Suspected Organisation ultimatley based on a smear campaign by the Zionist media in TV Movie.

But shur why let facts or truth obscure a good slur

marcsignal

Sykes wrote: »

Can I remind you that we the allies (I don't mean Ireland of course, they were on the Nazi side) killed more Germans than they killed us. Does that mean we were the bad guys?

any luck finding the source for the above claim Nodin asked you for sykes ?
Or at the very least, can you tell us where you're buying your acid. ??

Sykes wrote: »

Glad to see that you didn't miss an opportunity to use the Nazi comparisin. A favourite trick of the anti-semites, according to the EU guidelines on anti-semitism.

and your first (completely wild and unsubstantiated) claim is definitely not anti-irish, right ?

Sykes wrote: »

Ireland? neutral? I don't think it's particularly neutral to welcome in Nazis after the war with open arms, giving them homes and finding them new jobs to make the rest of their lives all nice and rosy after having just committed one of the most heinous acts in humanity

You mean the way the Americans did when looking for nazi scientists for their rocket programme ?
They were quite happy to accomodate Hubertus Strughold, head of the aviation medical experiments in Dachau for this purpose, despite the fact the man was up to his goolies in dead Jews.

Or how about the post war British Prime Minister, Clement Attley, who shipped the entire 14th SS Division Galicia to England after the war, to work on covert cold war operations for the western allies, despite the fact the whole unit was heavily implicated in war crimes against Jews specifically, in the Ukraine and Poland, and had an integral part to play in the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Nodin

I think Mr Sykes has left the building....

digme

He probably got called to his "duty" by the megaphone software.

anymore

wes wrote: »

I have asked the following question several times before, so heres hoping for an answer this time:

Why doesn't Israel build its so called security wall on there own land?

How exactly does a security wall that isn't complete, prevent suicide bombing? Surely, they could just go through the gaps. Perhaps there is another reason for them stopping, what with PA security forces stepping things up, and a realisation that suicide bombings don't help there cause.

So, you say Israel had to build the wall, well I would disagree, but at the very least they didn't have to build it on someone else land, which clearly shows the whole wall to be another Israeli land grab.

**EDIT**
Palestinian terrorism incidently didn't happen in a vacuum. Israel was stealing there land, and treating them like crap decades before the Palestinians resorted to suicide bombing and the like.
**END EDIT**



Being a democracy (and in Israel case its a democracy for one ethnic group) doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.

Secondly, it Israel is being made to look bad, its due to there own actions, and no one elses.

Also, accusing people of "protecting" Israel's enemies is laughable. Sure, I could accuse people of "protecting" Palestines enemies, and it would make about as much sense. Rethoric that targets other a ill defined group of other posters, isn't helpful to the discussion. We should talk about the topic, and not ill defined groups of poster we disagree with.

Well you have to give Israel credit for building the wall on the side where the security problems are coming from ! Now I presume that they may have someone occassionally guarding the gaps in the wall, but in any event I am sure they will note your concern and fill the gaps in at some point. The reality is that Isreal's security measures have been quite successsful in reducing the number of palestinian terrorist slaughter attacks. It is of course in the very best terrorist tradition, that these bombings also killed non jewish innocent people living and working in Israel. No apartheid there - kill everyone !
I wish there was as much concern about land stealing in places like the Western Sahara as there is about alleged Israeli land grabbing. But the land grabbers in the Western Sahara aren't Jewish.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

I wish there was as much concern about land stealing in places like the Western Sahara as there is about alleged Israeli land grabbing. But the land grabbers in the Western Sahara aren't Jewish.

No this thread is about Israel not Western Sahara, I reckon that could be the reason, don't you

anymore

wes wrote: »

The Goldstone report showed Hamas were operating in civilian area's, but claims like yours where they used hospitals and schools to launch rockers, have never been proven by Israel, and there claims made by Israel of Hamas deliberately using Human Shields, also have never been proven.

.This is a white wash. You cannot launch military attacks such as rocket launchings from crowed urban areas without endangering facilities such as schools and hospitals. It is pretty clear Hamas were trying to induce Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure.

anymore

IrishTonyO wrote: »

No this thread is about Israel not Western Sahara, I reckon that could be the reason, don't you

That is the point I was making. Israel cant be blamed so it is off topic.

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

That is the point I was making. Israel cant be blamed so it is off topic.

How can Israel not be blamed for building a security wall not in their own territory?? If they want a security wall build it on their own land. The UN should come in and tear it down if they don't move it to their own territory.

anymore

IrishTonyO wrote: »

How can Israel not be blamed for building a security wall not in their own territory?? If they want a security wall build it on their own land. The UN should come in and tear it down if they don't move it to their own territory.

Well Israel could point put that Morrocco has establised the precedent of building a 1000 kM Wall in Western Sahara on land it invaded decades ago and the International Community seems quite happy about that. So as you know precedent is very important in law so I imagine a solution to the Western Sahara wall ought to be relevant here !

IrishTonyO

anymore wrote: »

Well Israel could point put that Morrocco has establised the precedent of building a 1000 kM Wall in Western Sahara on land it invaded decades ago and the International Community seems quite happy about that. So as you know precedent is very important in law so I imagine a solution to the Western Sahara wall ought to be relevant here !

So 2 wrongs make a right? Ok now I understand your 'logic' and again this thread is about Israel not Western Sahara, so it is not relevant here

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well Israel could point put that Morrocco has establised the precedent of building a 1000 kM Wall in Western Sahara on land it invaded decades ago and the International Community seems quite happy about that. So as you know precedent is very important in law so I imagine a solution to the Western Sahara wall ought to be relevant here !

The ICJ has already made a advisory ruling, that Israels Aparthed wall is illegal under international law:

Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory

Also, I fail to see the relevance of Morroco. Them building a wall, does not set a legal precedence, a legal ruling does that, and as you can see from the ICJ one above, Israels wall is illegal.

wes

anymore wrote: »

Well you have to give Israel credit for building the wall on the side where the security problems are coming from ! Now I presume that they may have someone occassionally guarding the gaps in the wall, but in any event I am sure they will note your concern and fill the gaps in at some point.

The rather larges gaps would have to be monitored 24/7 to have the effectiviness as a wall, and seeing as plenty of Palestinians can illegal enter Israel to work, it kind of puts another massive hole, in your claims about the wall.

**EDIT**
Here is a link on Palestinians who breach Israels wall to get into Israel:
Israel's illegal Palestinian workforce
**EDIT**

So, if a suicide bomber really wanted to get in. The simple fact remains is that the illegal wall can be circumvented, and is on a daily basis. So the wall hasn't stopped suicide bombings, and is a illegal land grab by Israel, who could easily build it on there own land.

anymore wrote: »

The reality is that Isreal's security measures have been quite successsful in reducing the number of palestinian terrorist slaughter attacks.

I have already pointed out several flaws in this assertion, and you haven't bothered addressing them. The reality is that Israel is once again making claims, and not backing it up in anyway shape or form.

anymore wrote: »

It is of course in the very best terrorist tradition, that these bombings also killed non jewish innocent people living and working in Israel. No apartheid there - kill everyone !

Yeah, just like the IDF has happily murdered foreigners in Palestine as well. Personally, I fail to see the relevance to anything I said.

anymore wrote: »

I wish there was as much concern about land stealing in places like the Western Sahara as there is about alleged Israeli land grabbing. But the land grabbers in the Western Sahara aren't Jewish.

Ah yes, accuse a non-specific group of people of Anti-semitism in a round about way. An old tactic, and one that never works.

If you want to discuss the Western Sahara, use the New Topic button to start a new thread, and stop trying the old what aboutery nonsense to drag this thread off topic.

wes

anymore wrote: »

This is a white wash. You cannot launch military attacks such as rocket launchings from crowed urban areas without endangering facilities such as schools and hospitals. It is pretty clear Hamas were trying to induce Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure.

There is no evidence to back up your claims, but the Goldstone report showed very clearly that Israel attacked civilian targets:

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

The EU btw has endorsed the above report as well:
EU endorses Goldstone report

The report clearly details Israel attacks on civilian targets, and shows that there attacks had nothing to do with Hamas operating in civilian areas, which the report condemned Hamas for as well btw.

meditraitor

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

While those accounts are harrowing, they in no way back up your assertion of 'palestinian kids getting killed every week'

If unfortunately palestinian children get killed it's usually because the terrorists use hospitals and schools as bases to launch rockets.

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=26083

They have only killed four kids this week so far, must be loosing their touch. Not one of them was in a hospital or school

The last 15 months has seen in terms of volume nearly one palestinian kid killed for every day...... they might not be killing them on a one day one assasination model but they are killing them in numbers...

The Saint

anymore wrote: »

Well you have to give Israel credit for building the wall on the side where the security problems are coming from ! Now I presume that they may have someone occassionally guarding the gaps in the wall, but in any event I am sure they will note your concern and fill the gaps in at some point. The reality is that Isreal's security measures have been quite successsful in reducing the number of palestinian terrorist slaughter attacks. It is of course in the very best terrorist tradition, that these bombings also killed non jewish innocent people living and working in Israel. No apartheid there - kill everyone !.

Once again, the Wall where it is built on Palestinian land is illegal. The ICJ has said it and it has been endorsed by the vast majority of states in the General Assembly, including every EU state. No one is arguing against the building of a Wall, just not on Palestinian land. Also, the arguement that the Wall is the sole, or even majority reason for increased secutiry doesn't stand up to scrutiny either.

The Israeli State Comptrollers 2002 report stated that “IDF documents indicate that most of the suicide terrorists and car bombs crossed the seam area into Israel through the checkpoints, where they underwent faulty and even shoddy checks”.

In 2006 the Israeli domestic intelligence agency, Shin Bet, stated that the sharp decline in terrorist attacks coming from the West Bank, with a sixty per cent reduction in fatalities between 2004 and 2005, was largely due to a truce between the rivalling Palestinian factions. Both Shin Bet and the IDF also “attribute[d] the reduction mainly to the improvement in their joint capability to foil terrorist attacks and to act against terrorist organizations”. Regarding the barrier it is“no longer mentioned as the major factor in preventing suicide bombings, mainly because the terrorists have found ways to bypass it”.

In September 2008 Shin Bet stated that the “West Bank separation barrier is fueling attacks by East Jerusalem Arabs who feel isolated from fellow Palestinians and are increasingly likely to lash out independently”.

In May 2009 the head of Shin Bet, Yuval Diskin, stated before a parliamentary committee, that there were no longer any security grounds for the continued building of the barrier within the West Bank, arguing that Israel had sufficient capabilities to prevent terrorist attacks emanating from the territories.

The increased cooperation between Israel and the PA has also be cited as a major factor on decreased attacks.

It is also clear that the purpose of the Wall is not solely for security reasons.

The Israeli State Attorney’s office stated that the sections of the route of barrier were determined by planned future expansions of settlements, speaking in one instance that “n planning the route in the area, consideration was given to the existence of a plan that is under preparation, but has not yet gained official approval.”

In Ariel Sharon’s 2004 Gaza disengagement plan it states there is “[t]he assumption that, in any future permanent status arrangement[…] it is clear that in the West Bank, there are areas which will be part of the State of Israel, including cities, towns and villages, security areas and installations, and other places of special interest to Israel”.

In May 2005 Sharon also stated that ““settlement blocks,” which will be located on the western side of the separation barrier, “will be part of the state of Israel, contiguous with Israel, with many more people”

In December 2005 the then Justice Minister, Tzipi Livni, said that the Wall constructed in the West Bank would be "the future border of the state of Israel" and that "the High Court of Justice, in its rulings over the fence, is drawing the country's borders."

Livni also stated that “[o]ne does not have to be a genius to see that the fence will have implications for the future border. This is not the reason for its establishment, but it could have political implications.”

In 2006 the then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced his “convergence plan”. The plan would see the evacuation of between 50,000-100,000 Israelis from the West Bank and incorporation of all major settlement blocks into Israel. This incorporation would account for between 5-10% of West Bank territory therefore leading to a de facto annexation of these portions of the territories. As part of the plan the Wall would incorporate all major settlement blocks on the Israeli side and “Israel will declare the barrier route its interim political border.” Also in March 2006 Olmert stated that the Wall, with minor adjustments to its path, “will "become the country's border in accordance with the country's interests."

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

Also, I fail to see the relevance of Morroco. Them building a wall, does not set a legal precedence, a legal ruling does that, and as you can see from the ICJ one above, Israels wall is illegal.

So you're ok with muslims oppressing other muslims hmm?

BlaasForRafa

meditraitor wrote: »

They have only killed four kids this week so far, must be loosing their touch. Not one of them was in a hospital or school

This is going to sound quite harsh..... but if someone goes out and starts attacking armed soldiers then they are retards.

All through the two intifada's palestinian leaders used dead protestors as martyrs for the cause just like the shinners here used bobby sands and the rest of the hunger strikers as martyrs. Yasser Arafat was calculated and cynical in using the images of dead protestors in the cause to court sympathy from the west just as the palestinians now do just the same thing. A dead protestor is far more useful to them than a live one.

meditraitor

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is going to sound quite harsh..... but if someone goes out and starts attacking armed soldiers then they are retards.

.

More like hearthless, how easy it for you to ignore the slaughter of children, do you have a switch in your brain that turns off when isreal kill children? What civilised mind could ignore the horror of murdered children?

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

So you're ok with muslims oppressing other muslims hmm?

Nope, I am very much against that, and I have condemned that sort of thing on this forum in the past, e.g. Iran's suppression of protesters in its country, but that neither here nor here, because again its off topic.

Also, tbh if people who are talking about the Western Sahara really cared, they would have started a thread on it, instead of trying to use whataboutery to detail this one. Its a poor tactic, to accuse people of not caring about an issue, when those doing the accusing are using the issue to dertail discussion about another topic.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

This is going to sound quite harsh..... but if someone goes out and starts attacking armed soldiers then they are retards.

All through the two intifada's palestinian leaders used dead protestors as martyrs for the cause just like the shinners here used bobby sands and the rest of the hunger strikers as martyrs. Yasser Arafat was calculated and cynical in using the images of dead protestors in the cause to court sympathy from the west just as the palestinians now do just the same thing. A dead protestor is far more useful to them than a live one.

If Israel looks bad for murdering protesters while stealing other peoples land, they have no one else to blame, but themselves. To put it bluntly, the IDF are the aggressors, as Israel is engaged in land theft, and they murder protesters in the process of this theft.

BlaasForRafa

meditraitor wrote: »

More like hearthless, how easy it for you to ignore the slaughter of children, do you have a switch in your brain that turns off when isreal kill children? What civilised mind could ignore the horror of murdered children?

So you're using a "won't someone please think of the children" argument?

Its easily apparent to see that if you attack soldiers then sh-t can happen, they must be absolutely thick if they don't realise that.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

So you're using a "won't someone please think of the children" argument?

Its easily apparent to see that if you attack soldiers then sh-t can happen, they must be absolutely thick if they don't realise that.

It should also be easily apparent that stealing things from people, will result in some form of self defence.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

It should also be easily apparent that stealing things from people, will result in some form of self defence.

Hey, I'm not defending the settlements. I don't think the IDF should be wasting resources on protecting settlers.

My point still stands though that rocks vs soldiers = dumb as a bag of hammers.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Its easily apparent to see that if you attack soldiers then sh-t can happen, they must be absolutely thick if they don't realise that.

So would you agree that a great deal of the attacks on Israel - caused as they are by a 43 year occupation - are essentially self inflicted?