Israeli apartheid

Mr. SS

wes wrote: »

What are you on about? Zionist colonists, did start to arrive, in the late 1800's, this is well established fact. There entire claim to the land is a 2000 year old claim, from someones holy book. Which has about as much validity as me claiming France is mine, because I had a dream where God gave it to me.

Where did I deny that? Why are you stating the obvious?

Oh and there is a difference between a dream you had and over 2000 years of recorded history in which Jews and non-jews alike offer confirmation that Jews occupied the holy land consistently. The holy book is irrelevant, archeology has proved this.

Im not saying they deserve all the land for this reason, just that your comparison to a dream is far from comparable.

Mr. SS

Nodin wrote: »

That was dealt with in detail on this board before. I'd suggest having a re-read of the facts.

Yes. The sentence I said was a fact. Jordan killed more Palestinians during Black September than Israel has Killed in Sixty years. Unless you can prove it false, dont tell me to look up the facts.

Mr. SS

nacho libre wrote: »

it's not splitting hair to say there is a vast difference between calling for regime change and calling for the destruction of an entire people. As Wes points out Iran are not alone in doing so.

As was said before, it is not regime change in the western sense that he is calling for, it is the removal of the "zionist regime" ie, the state of Israel, which he clearly wants:

BRUSSELS - The European Union on Saturday condemned the latest remarks by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about Israel, in which he said that the Palestinians and “other nations” would eventually remove the Jewish state.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/February/middleeast_February368.xml&section=middleeast&col=

nacho libre wrote: »

but your claim that he wants to get rid of an entire people does not stand up to scrutiny

I said he wants rid of israel did i not?

nacho libre wrote: »

You do realise Iran has a Jewish population - the biggest in the middle east outside of Israel?

No, because according to the World Jewish Congress, Turkey has the biggest pop of Jews in the Mid East outside Israel. Not all Jews are Zionists so your point doesnt hold water about there being Jews in Iran, because the "Zionist Regime" is what he keeps refering to.

nacho libre wrote: »

as for saying Iran's stance is aggressive, who are the countries conducting war games in the straits of hormutz based on unfounded allegations. can you imagine the reaction if Iran, after the 2003 war in Iraq, started conducting war games off the coast of america? yet you portray the current situation as if Iran is being the aggressor here and threatening stability in the region.

Wargames and backing the elimination of a state are two different things once again.

Nodin

Mr. SS wrote: »

Yes. The sentence I said was a fact. Jordan killed more Palestinians during Black September than Israel has Killed in Sixty years. Unless you can prove it false, dont tell me to look up the facts.

I already did. But as you insist - what number was killed by Jordan, according to you?

Nodin

And since when has this thread been about Iran.....? Thats another thread entirely.

Euroland

Mr. SS wrote: »

Oh and there is a difference between a dream you had and over 2000 years of recorded history in which Jews and non-jews alike offer confirmation that Jews occupied the holy land consistently. The holy book is irrelevant, archeology has proved this.

Whatever they occupied some 20 centuries ago is totally irrelevant, what matters is that in the modern history they started to arrive from Eastern Europe to Palestine only from the very late 19 century, the land which was already populated by the Arabs. The arrival wasn't peaceful as the newcomers were extremely aggressive.

wes

Mr. SS wrote: »

Ahmadinejad is perfectly clear in his speech, trying to cause ambiguity by whether he said "off the map" or "wipped from the pages of history" or "regime change" is irrelevant, the message is crystal clear.

Yeah, he referred to regime, and no amount of obfuscation on your part will change that. If the US gets to call for regime change then so does Iran. None, of this nonsense double standards, and obfustions changes that. Anyway, this is off topic and I am done.

wes

Mr. SS wrote: »

Where did I deny that? Why are you stating the obvious?

I never said you denied anything actually. Please do read what i say.

Mr. SS wrote: »

Oh and there is a difference between a dream you had and over 2000 years of recorded history in which Jews and non-jews alike offer confirmation that Jews occupied the holy land consistently. The holy book is irrelevant, archeology has proved this.

Yeah, so what. A 2000 year old land claim (the secular Zionist version), is equal to me claiming Iran, due some of my ancestors having lived there 100s of years ago. Either way the Zionist claims is absurd nonsense.

QUOTE=Mr. SS;66189712]
Im not saying they deserve all the land for this reason, just that your comparison to a dream is far from comparable.[/QUOTE]

No, it is perfectly fair, when regarding the Religous Zionist claim, and I gave another comparison for the secular Zionist claim above.

Both claims are garbage. Zionists are just another group of European colonists.

irishconvert

Mr. SS wrote: »

As was said before, it is not regime change in the western sense that he is calling for, it is the removal of the "zionist regime" ie, the state of Israel, which he clearly wants:.

Not true at all, and this has been clarified by the Iranian government time and time again.

nacho libre

Mr. SS wrote: »

As was said before, it is not regime change in the western sense that he is calling for, it is the removal of the "zionist regime" ie, the state of Israel, which he clearly wants:

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2006/February/middleeast_February368.xml&section=middleeast&col=

I said he wants rid of israel did i not?

No, because according to the World Jewish Congress, Turkey has the biggest pop of Jews in the Mid East outside Israel. Not all Jews are Zionists so your point doesnt hold water about there being Jews in Iran, because the "Zionist Regime" is what he keeps refering to.


Wargames and backing the elimination of a state are two different things once again.

i think my point about Jews in Iran does stand because you disingenously portray the situation as he seeks to get rid of an entire people and a state. so my question is would he not start with the jewish population in his own country if this were true.

As for Wargames and backing the elimination of a state being two different things, i agree they are completely different, but as has been pointed out to you several times already that is not what he has called for.
you can keep saying otherwise but it doesn't make it true.

he advocates the removal of what he considers a malign political entity/regime. so he is only doing what America and Israel do quite often. yet you are obviously more concerned with rhetoric from a guy, who by the way has not the political power to engage unilaterally in such actions, due to the Iranian politicial structure, than countries who do actually invade other countries for dubious reasons. how many countries has Iran invaded in the last 50 years?

so yeah there is a big difference between engaging in defensive wargames, in readiness for a possible millitary conflict with other nations, than being a threat to another country who calls for millitary action to be taken against you based on dubious allegations.
I mean it's not so long ago we were told Iraq had WMD. It couldn't possibly be that Iran is telling the truth.

the Ayatollah repeatedly using the word harem(forbidden)
in relation to acquring nuclear weapons should be dismissed as meaningless no doubt.

well i'm done here because it seems as if you will continue to peddle double standards in the face of the facts.

Mr. SS

wes wrote: »

Yeah, he referred to regime, and no amount of obfuscation on your part will change that. If the US gets to call for regime change then so does Iran. None, of this nonsense double standards, and obfustions changes that. Anyway, this is off topic and I am done.

Ah sure wes, you know what Admedinejad thinks better than he does. Zionist regime = Israel by his own admission. He says this over and over, you honestly think he just doesnt like the political party in power? You think he wants to end Israel over a political party? hilarious!

I operate off his definition, you apply your own definition onto his words resulting in falsities.

Nodin

Mr. SS wrote: »

Ah sure wes, you know what Admedinejad thinks better than he does. Zionist regime = Israel by his own admission. He says this over and over, you honestly think he just doesnt like the political party in power? You think he wants to end Israel over a political party? hilarious!

I operate off his definition, you apply your own definition onto his words resulting in falsities.

.....Jordan....?

Mr. SS

nacho libre wrote: »

i think my point about Jews in Iran does stand because you disingenously portray the situation as he seeks to get rid of an entire people and a state. so my question is would he not start with the jewish population in his own country if this were true.

Already answered. if he wanted rid of Jews of course he would start in his own country (there are only 11,000 of them by the way), but he doesnt, he wants rid of the "Zionist Regime" ie Israel. I never said he wants to get rid of an entire people, he wants israel gone. So you point does not stand at all.

nacho libre wrote: »

As for Wargames and backing the elimination of a state being two different things, i agree they are completely different, but as has been pointed out to you several times already that is not what he has called for.
you can keep saying otherwise but it doesn't make it true.

You obviously did not read my response the last time where he has stated "Palestinians and “other nations” will eventually remove the Jewish state." Its funny that you would try to suggest that he is not calling for the end of Israel here, the only Jewish state on earth, even though he says it himself. No amount of you trying to deny what he says will make what he says untrue!

nacho libre wrote: »

he advocates the removal of what he considers a malign political entity/regime.

which is what exactly? What does he want to remove?

nacho libre wrote: »

I mean it's not so long ago we were told Iraq had WMD. It couldn't possibly be that Iran is telling the truth.

Fair enough.

nacho libre wrote: »

well i'm done here because it seems as if you will continue to peddle double standards in the face of the facts.

Grand so.

karma_

Noam Chomsky on a lot of the issues discussed in this thread, very interesting interview and worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCtYecGbQz8

wes

Mr. SS wrote: »

Ah sure wes, you know what Admedinejad thinks better than he does. Zionist regime = Israel by his own admission. He says this over and over, you honestly think he just doesnt like the political party in power? You think he wants to end Israel over a political party? hilarious!

I operate off his definition, you apply your own definition onto his words resulting in falsities.

As I said earlier, I am done with this and its off topic in anyways. Also, saying the same thing again doesn't make it any more right the 2nd time.

nacho libre

Mr. SS wrote: »

You obviously did not read my response the last time where he has stated "Palestinians and “other nations” will eventually remove the Jewish state." Its funny that you would try to suggest that he is not calling for the end of Israel here, the only Jewish state on earth, even though he says it himself. No amount of you trying to deny what he says will make what he says untrue!

which is what exactly? What does he want to remove?

.

ok. one more time.

On December 11, 2006 the "International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust" in Tehran opened.

Ahmadinejad was quoted on the conference as saying
The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom”, and elections should be held among “Jews, Christians and Muslims.

did the dismantling of the soviet union, lead to the end of Russia as a country? no.
It seems quite clear in his statements he is calling for the removal of a political regime with its exclusive ideology, as defined in its constitution, not an end to a state. This has been pointed out to you time and time again.
You seem keen to ignore the point repeatedly made that other countries call for regime change. You would not declare such declarations as them wanting an end to an actual state.

you also overlook the fact that the Iranian president is confined to rhetoric- i.e even if your allegations were true, he does not have the power to take the decision alone to engage in military conflict, as he answers to the guardian council and the Ayatollah, who ultimately makes the decisions on foreign policy.
i presume you accept this as true as you did not challenge this. neither did you challenge the Ayatollah's stance on nuclear weapons.

so while i agree with you Ahmadinejad's rhetoric is fiery and his views on the holocaust are nauseating, as i've outlined none of this equates to Iran being a threat to Israel.
whereas Israel and America have threatened Iran with military action based on unfounded allegations. And as we know America does not confine itself to confrontational language, it has a history of invading other countries based on false pretences. Iran does not.
So in the final analysis if you are even-handed in your analysis of the situation, this should really bother you in light of the non-existence Iraqi WMD.

nacho libre

wes wrote: »

As I said earlier, I am done with this and its off topic in anyways.

Well it's my fault for dragging the thread off topic. I should have started a new thread. So apologies for doing so:o

Deep Easterly

Mr. SS wrote: »

"Zionist Regime" ie Israel.

How exactly do you equate the two? ,

Nodin

Imagine Brian Cowan threatening to strip Alan Shatter or David Norris of their citizenship for disagreeing with the Government line.....

Interior Minister Eli Yishai petitioned Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein to help him revoke the Israeli citizenship of Israeli Arab MK Hanin Zuabi, who took part in efforts to break Israel's blockade of Gaza on a flotilla of aid ships earlier this week.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/interior-minister-seeks-to-strip-israeli-arab-mk-of-citizenship-1.294091

(And rather than get banned for abuse, I'll just report people who want to have "Flotilla Part Deux" in this thread. I'd rather abuse, but thems the breaks)

Mr. SS

nacho libre wrote: »

ok. one more time...
It seems quite clear in his statements he is calling for the removal of a political regime with its exclusive ideology, as defined in its constitution, not an end to a state.

Iran is talking about an exclusive ideology? ha! Once again, the "regime" and "Israel the state" are completely interchangable and the same thing to him, as stated by himself, and indeed he does support the end of Israel. I will let him tell you because you seem to deny what is almost common knowledge at this stage for most people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo

Nodin

If you want to talk about Iran, start a thread.

nacho libre

Mr. SS wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FckLO8HcNyo

there is nothing new in that video.

what's clear is that he's engaging in well known and documented fiery slogans in that video for public consumption - which, as has been pointed out in my previous post, even it was as you portray it a call for the removal of a country, he does not have the power to pursue such action due to the political structure in Iran. you have consistently and conveniently ignored this fact. as you do the fact other countries, such as America and Russia, have a history of doing more than engaging in threatening rhetoric, they have invaded other countries on spurious grounds. Iran has not a history of doing so.
so rather than denying anything, i'm simply choosing not to be duped by a biased narrative which seeks to ignore the glaring double standards America has on the nuclear weapons issue, as evidenced by its staunch defense of Israel's non compliance with the interntional community with regard to her nuclear weapons.

anyway, as has been said, this is off-topic. start a new thread about Iran if you want.

Wibbs

nacho libre wrote: »

Iran has not a history of doing so.

Indeed and Iran has signed the nuclear non prolification treaty and the highest religious and secular authority in the land has publicly declared nuclear weapons as forbidden under his interpretation of religious law. Israel? Well signing treaties not its strongest point so no. Plus it has nukes and aquired much of the raw material for same from the South African apartheid regime in the late 60's and 70's. While it was also selling weapons and military advice to same. Even invited a known nazi sympathiser to Israel in the form of the SA prime minister. Which many older Jews who had lived under and had lost families to such a fcuked up regime were rightfully shouting WTF??? at the time. Seems like successive Israeli governments will get into bed with whores when it suits while claiming to be whiter than white.

Then again there are some parallels with SA. How much land did Palestinians have in 1967? How much have they now?

joesoap007

Nodin wrote: »

This is relevant how?

mmmm how the fook did i do that.

must have copyed that by mistake.

my bad...

sign it if you want

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?26011977&101