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Israeli apartheid
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Does (.....)the Holy land ?
'Holy' texts are hardly proof or disproof of territorial disputes.
You never replied to
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65950714&postcount=6280 -
Does this mean you reject the validation that Islamic Holy Books gives to Jewish claims to the Holy land ?
I should have added that as Islam is as much a political force, particularily in the ME, and as a religous force and bases its legitimacy on the various Holy Books, then questions such as the one I have just are both relevant and important. Therefore the question is desvering of an answer.0 -
I taught the following an important developement regarding Israel so called settlement "freeze":Ya'alon: Building to resume in September
Vice Premier Moshe Ya’alon vowed on Thursday evening that settlement construction will resume when the moratorium on housing starts expires on September 26.
“We will renew building after the moratorium ends,” he told a small crowd of settlers who had gathered to hear him speak at a celebration to mark the completion of a new neighborhood for 12 families in the Maon settlement in the South Hebron Hills.
In a nod to the Palestinians, Ya’alon said, “We do not want to rule our neighbors. But we will not evacuate settlements. We will not move Jews. We will not sacrifice Jews from any place in Israel.”
He added that the government would reject any situation in which Jews are forbidden to live in certain areas of the country, while Arabs can live anywhere in Israel.
Click here for full article
So, is the above just posturing to get votes from the far right, or is he being serious? Looking at Netanyahu coalition, its seem he is serious.
Everything said above also seems to be hugely rejectionist, and he make a rather odd claims about "Arabs" (i am sure he mean Palestinians) being able to live anywhere in Israel, which is untrue, as Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or Gaza, can hardly move to West Jeruslame. Even Palestinians in Israel, have huge problems buying land, as most of it is cut off to them due to the JNF racist policies regarding land.0 -
I should have added that as Islam is as much a political force, particularily in the ME, and as a religous force and bases its legitimacy on the various Holy Books, then questions such as the one I have just are both relevant and important. Therefore the question is desvering of an answer.
There have been Palestinian secular groups. There are secular zionists. Religion might be part of certain factions ideology, but taking any texts as "proof" of claims is ridiculous.
Are you going to answer the outstanding question I linked above? Its been three days now.0 -
I taught the following an important developement regarding Israel so called settlement "freeze":
So, is the above just posturing to get votes from the far right, or is he being serious? Looking at Netanyahu coalition, its seem he is serious.
Everything said above also seems to be hugely rejectionist, and he make a rather odd claims about "Arabs" (i am sure he mean Palestinians) being able to live anywhere in Israel, which is untrue, as Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or Gaza, can hardly move to West Jeruslame. Even Palestinians in Israel, have huge problems buying land, as most of it is cut off to them due to the JNF racist policies regarding land.
You are evading the issue of whether the Islamic Holy Books validate the Israelis claim to the Holy Lands.
I have explained why this is an important question in this region.0 -
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You are evading the issue of whether the Islamic Holy Books validate the Israelis claim to the Holy Lands.
I have explained why this is an important question in this region.
Ahem.....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65950714&postcount=6280 -
Arabs are the race I suppose with Palestinians being the eithic group, I'm just presuming thats what he's talking about I'm not starting it all up again!So, is the above just posturing to get votes from the far right, or is he being serious? Looking at Netanyahu coalition, its seem he is serious.
Everything said above also seems to be hugely rejectionist, and he make a rather odd claims about "Arabs" (i am sure he mean Palestinians) being able to live anywhere in Israel, which is untrue, as Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or Gaza, can hardly move to West Jeruslame.
I really don't see too much wrong with that, he said they don't want to rule over the palestinians. Over 20% of Israel is made up of Palestinians, they can't all face discrimination otherwise there would be civil war, given that Palestinians are not known for being shy about making their feelings felt.
You say most land is cut off by JNF racist policies. How can this be when 80% of the land is state owned:
http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israelState-owned lands. Israeli Arabs have equal access to state-owned land—four-fifths of the entire country—both in theory and in practice. Indeed, about half of the land they cultivate is directly leased to them by the Israeli government through the ILA.15
Put this in contrast to Jordanian and PA policy:
Suddenly Israel doesnt seem so bad.Under the direct instructions of King Husayn23, the government of Jordan in 1973 passed the "Law for Preventing the Sale of Immovable Property to the Enemy."24The "enemy" is defined in Article 2 as "any man or judicial body [corporation] of Israeli citizenship living in Israel or acting on its behalf."
PA: The draft law is vague about punishment, but according to the Jordanian Penal Code, which is still in effect on the West Bank, the crime for treason is death.34
According to PA legislators, the term "Palestine" in the law refers to all the territory of the Palestine Mandate, meaning all of Israel.35 Under this proposed statute, then, an Israeli Arab who sells any land in Israel to an Israeli Jew would face the death penalty.0 -
Arabs are the race I suppose with Palestinians being the eithic group, I'm just presuming thats what he's talking about I'm not starting it all up again!
Yeah, best to leave this alone.I really don't see too much wrong with that, he said they don't want to rule over the palestinians. Over 20% of Israel is made up of Palestinians, they can't all face discrimination otherwise there would be civil war, given that Palestinians are not known for being shy about making their feelings felt.
Well, Palestinian in Israel are not bombed and half starved, so they aren't desperate enought to resort to violence.You say most land is cut off by JNF racist policies. How can this be when 80% of the land is state owned:
http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel
The JNF control 13% of the land, and as such make his claim of Palestinian being able to live anywhere in Israel a lie. Also, the ILA control the other 80%, and are also covered by the racist land law. I forgot to mention the ILA the first time, but the JNF make his claims a complete and utter lie.Put this in contrast to Jordanian and PA policy:
Suddenly Israel doesnt seem so bad.
No, actually Israel is just as bad as it always was. The PA can't actually enforce its laws in Israel, so its a non-issue. Also, you your own quote says its a "draft" law. Also, the US has the death penalty for treason, so I fail to see how the Palestinian are unique in this, and they certainly have no writ, when it comes to Palestinians in Israel, and have not tried to enforce any laws on them. So we are talking about theory, and practice. What the PA law does is in theory, and what Israels does is in practice.0 -
Is there a law that says Palestinians cannot but land off the JNF or is it simply JNF policy that they don't sell to Palestinians? If there is no State law then they can live anywhere in Israel its just the JNF won't release the land, which would be no different than private property.The JNF control 13% of the land, and as such make his claim of Palestinian being able to live anywhere in Israel a lie. Also, the ILA control the other 80%, and are also covered by the racist land law. I forgot to mention the ILA the first time, but the JNF make his claims a complete and utter lie.
It doesnt stop them enforcing it on their own territory:No, actually Israel is just as bad as it always was. The PA can't actually enforce its laws in Israel, so its a non-issue.Palestinians who sell land to Jews will face the death penalty1 and over the next few weeks, at least four Palestinians said to have been involved in such sales were in fact murdered.2 In addition, Israeli forces rescued a fifth land dealer as he was being spirited from his home near Jerusalem to Ramallah, presumably to be killed.3 Evidence, both circumstantial and otherwise, pointed to direct PA involvement in each of these murders; indeed, Yasir Arafat himself justified the executions:Israel has always confiscated land from Arabs and dispossessed them of their property. The land always goes from Arabs to the Jews. Can a Palestinian resident of Nablus or Hebron buy land in Israel? Therefore, what should we call those from our nation who serve Israel's policy of stripping property? We are talking about a few traitors and we will apply what has been determined by law against them.4
I think the US's treson laws are a bit more leiniant than the death penalty for selling land, even if it was to Al Queda. I think your exagerating a bit.Also, the US has the death penalty for treason, so I fail to see how the Palestinian are unique in this.
I think you'll find that such asertions by Arafat are still kept alive, meaning the PA does indeed do this in pratice:So we are talking about theory, and practice. What the PA law does is in theory, and what Israels does is in practice.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=18538In a declaration reminiscent of Nazi Germany, the chief justice of the Palestinian Authority on Wednesday issued a warning reminding Palestinians that selling land to Jews is "high treason."
In remarks carried by The Jerusalem Post, Sheikh Tayseer Rajab Tamimi said that any Palestinian who sells land to Jews will be given the death penalty.
The Palestinian Authority, despite being involved in a peace process with Israel, continues to enforce a decades-old Jordanian law that made it a capital crime to sell land to Jews.0 -
Is there a law that says Palestinians cannot but land off the JNF or is it simply JNF policy that they don't sell to Palestinians? If there is no State law then they can live anywhere in Israel its just the JNF won't release the land, which would be no different than private property.
Again, the claim was that a Palestinian could live any where in Israel, this is demonstably false. Also, the law allows this private organization to sell state land, and it allows it be racist about it. This is protected by law, the simple fact is that Palestinian can not live anywhere in Israel, it was just another lie. Also, the ILA also discriminates, and they control the lions share of the land, and they are also covered by the racist law, as stated earlier.It doesnt stop them enforcing it on their own territory:
[/INDENT] I think the US's treson laws are a bit more leiniant than the death penalty for selling land, even if it was to Al Queda. I think your exagerating a bit.
The US is not involved in a land conflict with anyone, I am sure they would have different opinion if they were. The US does enforce a death penalty for treason, and they don't even need a trial:
Obama gives order to kill American terror imam
What the PA does, is no worse than the US imho.I think you'll find that such asertions by Arafat are still kept alive, meaning the PA does indeed do this in pratice:
So the PA enforces its writ over Palestinians living in Israel? That is what I was talking about, when I said in theory.
They have minimal control over some parts of the West Bank, and thats it.0 -
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Im not being smart but do you have evidence, this interests me.Again, the claim was that a Palestinian could live any where in Israel, this is demonstably false. Also, the law allows this private organization to sell state land, and it allows it be racist about it.
You really think that the US is as bad as the PA. The PA is engaged in killing people who break a racist law. America in no way does anything of the sort as the law wouldn't even be there to break in the first place, let alone dish out a death penalty for doing so.The US is not involved in a land conflict with anyone, I am sure they would have different opinion if they were.
What the PA does, is no worse than the US imho.
But your opinion is your opinion.
I had said above where you replied to this that it was doing it in its own Jurisdiction.So the PA enforces its writ over Palestinians living in Israel? That is what I was talking about, when I said in theory.
Even so, treatening to kill citizens of another country who sell land to their fellow countrymen whether one can enforce it or not, surely doesnt help a situation.0 -
Is there a law that says Palestinians cannot but land off the JNF or is it simply JNF policy that they don't sell to Palestinians? If there is no State law then they can live anywhere in Israel its just the JNF won't release the land, which would be no different than private property.
On the JNF
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/is-the-jnf-racist-1.226212Article 3A of the JNF's articles of incorporation states that one of its goals is to purchase and lease lands on which to settle Jews. The JNF bill, which passed its preliminary reading last week, requires the state to manage JNF lands in keeping with this principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_National_FundHowever, several months later, the High Court heard an Adalah petition seeking cancellation of an ILA policy as well as Article 27 of the Regulations of the Obligations of Tenders, which in concert prevent Arab citizens from participating in bids for JNF-controlled land.[50] The High Court of Justice agreed to delay a ruling by at least four months, and a temporary settlement was reached wherein although the JNF would be prevented from discriminating on grounds of ethnicity, nevertheless every time land is sold to a non-Jew, the ILA would compensate it with an equivalent amount of land, thus ensuring the total amount of land owned by Jewish Israelis remains the same0 -
Im not being smart but do you have evidence, this interests me.
I posted it earlier, it was Haaretz editorial:
A racist Jewish state
Nodin also provide some information above as well.You really think that the US is as bad as the PA. The PA is engaged in killing people who break a racist law. America in no way does anything of the sort as the law wouldn't even be there to break in the first place, let alone dish out a death penalty for doing so.
But your opinion is your opinion.
Obama ordered a guy accused of treason killed. I provided the link and everything, the guy isn't even going to get a trial, so yeah I would say the 2 are same in this instance.I had said above where you replied to this that it was doing it in its own Jurisdiction.
Even so, treatening to kill citizens of another country who sell land to their fellow countrymen whether one can enforce it or not, surely doesnt help a situation.
Sure it doesn't, but it doesn't really change the reality that the claim being made by the Israeli politician was a lie. The guy made a false claim, about how Palestinians can live anywhere, when they clearly can't.0 -
I posted it earlier, it was Haaretz editorial:
A racist Jewish state
Nodin also provide some information above as well.
Obama ordered a guy accused of treason killed. I provided the link and everything, the guy isn't even going to get a trial, so yeah I would say the 2 are same in this instance.
Sure it doesn't, but it doesn't really change the reality that the claim being made by the Israeli politician was a lie. The guy made a false claim, about how Palestinians can live anywhere, when they clearly can't.
Can you answer if you accept that Islamic Holy Books validate Isralei claims to the Holy Land - of you accept it, then questions must arise about your various claims regarding the rights of Israeli settlers - at the very least you will have to accept the right of israelis to purchase land anywhere in the relevant area.
If you do not accept this validation, then say so and it will clear up matters.0 -
The Obama link was a 404 error: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7089899.eceObama ordered a guy accused of treason killed. I provided the link and everything, the guy isn't even going to get a trial, so yeah I would say the 2 are same in this instance.
He should have said they can live on 87% of the land.Sure it doesn't, but it doesn't really change the reality that the claim being made by the Israeli politician was a lie. The guy made a false claim, about how Palestinians can live anywhere, when they clearly can't.0 -
The Obama link was a 404 error: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7089899.ece
Weird, link is working fine for me, in my original post, and in the version you posted above.He should have said they can live on 87% of the land.
Well, that isn't entirely true either, as they have a lot of trouble in general as well. Still, the fact the state land is denied citizens, is certainly an example of inequality.0 -
Got it. Well suspected involvement in terrorism is a lot more serious than suspected selling of land in fairness.Weird, link is working fine for me, in my original post, and in the version you posted above.
The PA does the same thing only with harsher consequences.Still, the fact the state land is denied citizens, is certainly an example of inequality.0 -
Can you (......)it will clear up matters.
I fail to see how you can hound any for answers, given your own refusal
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65950714&postcount=628
And again, holy books are irrelevant. Jews wishing to purchase land in a situation where theres no occupation would be an entirely different matter to what happens now, I'd imagine.0 -
Got it. Well suspected involvement in terrorism is a lot more serious than suspected selling of land in fairness.
The PA does the same thing only with harsher consequences.
I would normally agree that selling land isn't treason, but in this case, where the conflict is primarily over land, selling land to the other guy isn't the brightest idea.0 -
Maybe the people selling the land do not believe they are selling it to the "other guy", business is business. Even the witnesses in that Ross Kemp documentary repeated that mantra time and time again.I would normally agree that selling land isn't treason, but in this case, where the conflict is primarily over land, selling land to the other guy isn't the brightest idea.0 -
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Maybe the people selling the land do not believe they are selling it to the "other guy", business is business. Even the witnesses in that Ross Kemp documentary repeated that mantra time and time again.
Sure, business is business, but selling land to someone who wished to annex it, would be a major bad idea, no matter where you live. If it was a case, of the people who were buying, were willing to live under Palestinians law etc, then I would again agree, but they don't want to, so I can see the issue.
I can certainly see why the PA would put such a ban on things, and consider it treason, after all there are in a conflict over land.0 -
Maybe the people selling the land do not believe they are selling it to the "other guy", business is business. Even the witnesses in that Ross Kemp documentary repeated that mantra time and time again.
Unfortunately, after conflicts are over and occupations end, people ended up repeating that mantra at the end of a rope. France and Russia come to mind.0 -
I would normally agree that selling land isn't treason, but in this case, where the conflict is primarily over land, selling land to the other guy isn't the brightest idea.
This is classic apartheid logic.
Now will you confirm that Islamic holy books validate Israels claims ot the Holy lands ?0 -
This is classic apartheid logic.
Now will you confirm that Islamic holy books validate Israels claims ot the Holy lands ?
Will you please answer the question put to you earlier?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65950714&postcount=6280 -
This is classic apartheid logic.
Now will you confirm that Islamic holy books validate Israels claims ot the Holy lands ?
Guess i better answer this myself :
QUR'AN SAYS:"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"SHAYKH PROF. PALAZZI COMMENTS:
"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."
"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."
[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.
The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Now I am not into religion, but as I have explained already, given the pivotal role religion plays in this region, particularily the Islamic religion, then cognisance has to be taken of these quotes.0 -
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Hate to quote myself, but clear up any confusion, as to why I am not answering questions from a certain user:Btw, you didn't answer my question in the other thread, after I answered your multiple question in this one, so I am done. Don't bother replying to me or anything, you will blocked, seeing as you expect others to answer your question, but don't give that same courtesy to others.
Posted that earlier in the thread. Only copped that this was apparently an issue from other peoples quotes.0 -
Hate to quote myself, but clear up any confusion, as to why I am not answering questions from a certain user:
Posted that earlier in the thread. Only copped that this was apparently an issue from other peoples quotes.
Oh well if you lack the will to deal with a question about your religion, then I cant compel you too.,
Perhaps this issue should be more appropriately dealt with as a separate thread as it is well worth exploring.
Its funny how many replies a thread about burquas would get and yet how few this question of the validation of israeli claims on the Holy land generates.
The nub of the situation is that Islam validates the claim of israel to the Holy Land, so i am not sure how any Muslim can characterise israeli occupation of the Holy land as 'Apartheid' .0 -
Oh well (....) as 'Apartheid' .
It's the treatment of the population that characterises Apartheid. The Israeli treatment of the Palestinian inhabitants qualifies as that in many respects, as has been clearly laid out earlier in the thread.
Why won't you answer the questions put to you?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65950714&postcount=6280 -
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Guess i better answer this myself :
QUR'AN SAYS:"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"SHAYKH PROF. PALAZZI COMMENTS:
"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."
"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."
[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]
God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.
The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.
Now I am not into religion, but as I have explained already, given the pivotal role religion plays in this region, particularily the Islamic religion, then cognisance has to be taken of these quotes.Oh well if you lack the will to deal with a question about your religion, then I cant compel you too.,
Perhaps this issue should be more appropriately dealt with as a separate thread as it is well worth exploring.
Its funny how many replies a thread about burquas would get and yet how few this question of the validation of israeli claims on the Holy land generates.
The nub of the situation is that Islam validates the claim of israel to the Holy Land, so i am not sure how any Muslim can characterise israeli occupation of the Holy land as 'Apartheid' .
Anymore, your analysis of the Qur'an is inaccurate. The Qur'an does not recognise the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews
When the Qur'an refers to Israelites, or Children of Israel, it is referring to the people at the time of Moses who believed in the teaching of Moses and believed on one true God, i.e. they had the same beliefs as Muslims today, they were Muslims. Muslims believe that these Children of Israel are not the Jews of today as they have gone astray and their book, the Torah, has been changed. The Children of Israel were the people of the time who believed in the same message as was revealed to Muhammed in the Qur'an. In other words the people who will come together in Israel at the end of time will be Muslims.0
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